April 7, 1920

L LIB

Edmond Savard

Laurier Liberal

Mr. SAVARD:

For a copy of all correspondence, letters and petitions received from the citizens of the Saguenay district and all others in connection with a, subsidy from the Department of Trade and Commerce in order to obtain the services of a steamboat ferry between Ste. Catherine and Tadoussac.

Topic:   UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS.
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L LIB

Edmond Savard

Laurier Liberal

Mr. SAVARD:

For a copy of all correspondence, letters and telegrams in connection with the granting of an allowance by the Post Office. Department for a regular ferry service by motor yacht between Ste. Catherine and Tadoussac.

Topic:   UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS.
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L LIB

Joseph Archambault

Laurier Liberal

Mr. AROHAMBAULT:

For a copy of all correspondence, documents and records, including the evidence and judgments in connection with the trials held by Field General Court Martial of the 259th, of

the Canadian Expeditionary Force in Siberia, on The following riflemen, sentenced on the 2Sth of January, 1919; Alfred Laplante, O. Boisvert, Edmond Leroux, Joseph Guenard, E. Pauze and Arthur Roy.

Topic:   UNOPPOSED MOTIONS FOR PAPERS.
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EXPERIMENTAL FARM SYSTEM.

MOTION BY MR. SUTHERLAND THAT THE SYSTEM BE EXTENDED IN ONTARIO.

UNION

Donald Sutherland

Unionist

Mr. DONALD SUTHERLAND (South Oxford) moved:

That, in the opinion of this House, it is expedient that a more general, equitable and uniform system of Experimental Farms and substations should be established throughout Canada, and that the wholly inadequate and disproportionate number given the Province of Ontario in the system shall be dealt with and provided for at the present Session of Parliament. .

He said: Mr. Speaker,, in asking the

House to approve of this resolution it is only right that some evidence should be advanced in support of it and, in that respect, I would like to touch upon some features connected, with agricultural experimental work in Canada that may not be new to the House. There is nothing indefinite or ambiguous about the resolution. If the allegations contained therein are correct then I think the request is so reasonable that this House will have no hesitation in granting it.

I do not want to be understood as disapproving of the experimental farm system. On the contrary, I believe that there never was a time in the history of this country when research work was so necessary as at present in connection with the agricultural industry, as well as the application of that research work, in order to overcome some of the difficulties with which we now have to contend. This resolution points to what I consider to be a very great injustice to one of the old provinces which entered the Confederation now forming the Dominion of Canada.

It needs no argument to convince the House that a great deal of work must be done in new provinces which the provinces themselves are not in a position to do; and those who were responsible for the consummation of the Confederation of Canada, realizing this important fact, very wisely made due allowance for educational work along agricultural lines both by the provincial and by the federal governments. This matter was taken up on numerous occasions before a final and definite understanding was arrived at, by which both federal and provincial governments have the right to carry on educational work of an educational and experimental nature. In 1886 the first system of experimental farms was

established in Canada, and the central farm at Ottawa was intended to serve the purposes of the whole of Canada as well as the provinces of Quebec and Ontario, with the director of the system located there. There were four other farms in addition to this, namely, one at Nappan, in Nova Scotia, for that province and the province of New Brunswick; one at Brandon for the province of Manitoba; one at Indian Head, which is now in Saskatchewan; and one at Agassiz, in British Columbia. These have from time to time been added to by other farms and sub-stations, until at the present time there are twenty-four farms, six sub-stations and forty demonstration stations throughout the Dominion of Canada. The work in the newer provinces has spread very rapidly, and there have undoubtedly been good results from the operation of the system. I have taken this matter up at almost every session since I have been a member of the House of Commons, and to show that the question, so far as the apparent injustice to Ontario of the matter is concerned, is not by any means a new one, I may quote a few paragraphs from Hansard of previous years. In 1912, when the agricultural estimates were before the House, I asked this question of the minister :

Are there any experimental farms being established in Ontario?

The minister replied:

We have not been doing any experimental farm work there for the reason that the Ontario Government have been covering that field themselves. What may be done in future I cannot say, but we hope to go into that matter with the various provinces.

I may say, in passing, that at that time the province of Ontario was compelled to build its own colonization railways without any subsidy from the Dominion Government, and the matter was before Parliament at that session. I referred to the subject, and the question of experimental farms, in these terms:

It is another instance, I presume, of Ontario being compelled to do work of this nature themselves without assistance from the Federal Government, and at the same time assist in maintaining a similar status in the other provinces. I would like the Government to consider the advisability of establishing experimental stations in Northern Ontario, also one in Western Ontario.

Nothing was done. In the session of 1914 when the estimate for the experimental farms were being passed, I said:

When you consider the large amount compared with former years that is being spent for experimental purposes and realize that

there are only forty acres and a very trifling expenditure devoted to experimental purposes in the province of Ontario you will come to the conclusion that some change must be made in this respect, and made in the near future.

Nothing, however, was done. In the following year I again brought the matter up on the Estimates:

Session after session I have taken this matter up and have urged upon the Government the necessity of doing justice to the province of Ontario in this respect. I am glad to say that since the last session the Minister of Agriculture has made arrangements to establish a demonstration farm in northern Ontario.

The minister made the following reply:

X desire to say just a word in answer to the remarks of my hon. friend from Oxford (Mr. Sutherland) and the remark of my hon. friend from Muskoka as to these farms in the work of the Agricultural Department generally. I hope that ithe hon. members understand that there is no east or no west in what we are doing. I happen to be a western man myself, my home being much further west than that of my hon. friend from Moosejaw or the other hon. gentlemen who have spoken. I was also an Ontario man. I think that everybody in this House will agree that what has been done for agriculture should be done so far as possible equitably throughout the country. It is true we are making this initial step in demonstration work in southern Saskatchewan and southern Alberta, but that does not mean that northern Alberta, northern Saskatchewan, Ontario and other parts will he left out. As the work develops and when the opportunities warrant,

I shall be glad to keep in mind what my hon. friends have said.

The method I have adopted this session is somewhat different from that which I have pursued in the past. I have moved a resolution which, in view of the situation that confronts 'the country to-day, obviously proves the urgent necessity for immediate action on the part oif the Government in this matter. Let one point out that there were at the outset five farms in the system and while the central farm at Ottawa was supposed to take care of the two provinces of Quebec and Ontario, the work has been extended considerably since that time. As I have said, there are now twenty-four farms and six s^b-st-ations in the system, and forty demonstration stations, and not one of these stations are in the province of Ontario. _ The work of the central farm at Ottawra is just as much applicable to the province of Quebec as it is to Ontario ; for that matter, it applies to all the otheT provinces. We have in western Ontario, it is true, a small demonstration station! comprising an area of forty-nine acres devoted to the growing of tobacco; and six hundred miles to the north of that farm there is another demonstration farm where the interned prisoners have been employed

in clearing land during the past two or three years. This farm will serve a very useful purpose in that northern country, but it^ by no means represents the agricultural industry of the old settled portion of southern Ontario. The farm at Harrow in the county of Essex is five hundred miles southwest of the farm at Ottawa, and I mention this distance to show the great difference that must exist between that part of the province and eastern Ontario. I may call the attention of hon. members to the products of the province of Ontario and the place which that province occupies in supplying the necessaries of life.

According to th5 last census of Canada, the population of the Dominion was 7,206,643, of which the province of Ontario bad 2,523,274, or a little over 35 per cent of the total. The Bureau of Statistics for the year 1918, the latest available, gives the field crop of -Canada for that year as $1,367,909,970, of which Ontario produced $384,013,900, or a little over 28 per cent of the total field crop of Canada. The livestock of Canada were valued at very nearly the same amount as the field crop for that year, being $1,326,766,000, of -which Ontario had $369,111,000, or 28.80 per cent of the total for Canada.

With respect to some of the tender fruits -fruits not grown on any large scale at any of the experimental farms, although they are to a small extent on some of the farms in British Columbia-in which certain sections of Ontario specialize in and produce immense quantities of, I would like to point out that according to the census statistics 99.7 per cent of the total grape crop of Canada is grown in the province of Ontario. Without any assistance whatever 'from the federal experimental farms, but with the aid of the Provincial 'Government, this production has been developed by the people of the province of Ontario. Then, too, over 90 per cent of the total crop of peaches grown in Canada is produced in the province of Ontario. Of strawberries 70 per cent, of apples 60 per cent; and 99.8 per cent of the total crop of red clover seed grown in the Dominion is -yielded by the province of Ontario. This production of clover seed in itself would justify something being done in view of the fact that at the present time the farmers are paying from $46 to $48 per bushel for seed with which to seed their land this spring, a condition of affairs that demands the attention of the Government and of those who are conducting the experimental farms of Canada, because it is a fact well known to every one

engaged in agriculture that without growing clover you cannot carry on agricultural operations for any considerable length of time except at an enormous expenditure for fertilizers. There is nothing to equal, and certainly there is nothing as cheap, as clover for maintaining fertility of soil and enriching impoverished land. Yet with respect to that production of 99.8 per cent of clover seed in Ontario, apparently the work is not being developed in Western Ontario by the aid of experimental farms. Again 42^ per cent of the tobacco grown in Canada and 85 per cent of the corn produced comes from the province of Ontario. Now, some one may say that that province is doing this work itself, and that the Provincial Government has been helping greatly along those lines. I grant that, but while it is the case, as far as. Ontario is concerned I have never yet heard of any one from that province who took the slightest exception to a generous expenditure for experimental work in the newer provinces of Canada. There is not, nor has there been, any desire on the part of the people of Ontario to in any way curtail such expenditure as would assist in developing and opening up the newer parts of the country. I do not like to make comparisons, but some times it is necessary in order to illustrate the point that one may have in view. The provinces of Ontario and Quebec are contiguous to each other. They contain immense areas of rich and fertile agricultural lands and the conditions in that respect are so similar that it is no wonder that when the Central Experimental Farm was established here in 1886 that farm was deemed sufficient to meet the requirements of both provinces. It is quite true that previous to that time some experimental work had been done in the province of Ontario. The Hon. John Carling, afterwards Sir John Carling, who was Commissioner of Agriculture in the Government of Ontario, in 1874 established the present Agricultural College and Experimental Farm at the city of Guelph. Later on he was Minister of Agriculture in the Federal Government, when the original system of experimental farms were established in Canada. But while we now have these farms, and practically all the provinces have their own agricultural colleges, and experimental farms in connection therewith, the situation at present is so entirely different from what it was at that time that I think I am justified in calling your attention to the fact that Ontario does more than meet the demands of the other provinces for assistance by the Department of Agriculture in that practically one-half of the customs revenue of Canada is paid by the people of Ontario, or 48.92 per cent. Yet she has to undertake and pay for the experimental work done in the province, besides bearing one-half the expense of the work of the other provinces. I have already pointed out that in addition to the Central Experimental Farm at Ottawa a tobacco growing station has been established in the county of Essex, and there is also a demonstration station at Kapuskasing, where alien prisoners were interned during the war and towards whose maintenance and payment a considerable portion of the expenditure for Ontario is attributed. But the two stations referred to do not in any sense meet the needs of the great agricultural industry in old Ontario, because tobacco can hardly be considered as one of the necessaries so essential towards answering the requirements of the people under the high cost of living at the present time. Let me point out that in the province of Quebec, in addition to thirteen demonstration farms, there aTe six experimental farms. In Manitoba there are two, in Saskatchewan three, in Alberta two, in British Columbia four, in Nova Scotia two, in New Brunswick one, in Prince Edward Island one, and finally there is the Central Experimental Farm in this city, which contributes to the demands of the Dominion as a whole.

I might remind the House that a very generous amount has been voted from year to year for the upkeep of these farms. According to the last public accounts I find that the total cost of our Experimental Farms for the year 1918-19 was $1,024,310. The cost of farms in the province of Ontario, excluding the Central at Ottawa, including the clearing of the land at Kapus-kasing, was $47,968. In the adjoining province of Quebec, where conditions are very similar the cost was $177,624. I would like the House to note the difference in respect to the amounts spent in those two old provinces where it is fair to make a comparison.

An Experimental Farm system to be effective must be able to demonstrate that agriculture can be carried on at a profit; if it cannot there must be something radically wrong. I do not contend for a moment that a farm system conducted for purely experimental purposes should be expected to show a profit; but I do contend that where you have large farms, such as we ' have in connection with this system, run-

ning from 400 to 1,000 acres, that they should be considered as being conducted on a commercial basis, and under such conditions if they cannot demonstrate what they were founded to inculcate in the minds of the people, namely, the cost of production profit or loss of the undertaking, then I say those farms have failed to .function as they were intended to by those who established them.

The cost of our Experimental Farms has been increasing very rapidly during the last few years, labour being one of the principal items of increase. I want to call the attention of the House to the wages paid for labourers on these twenty-four farms- which does not include the forty demonstration stations scattered throughout the country-representing a total acreage of 11,270-quite a considerable area when we recall that food was so essential during the war years. The total amount paid out for farm labour on these farms during the year 1018 amounted to no less than $452,388.58, which does not include the remuneration of the permanent staff-the professors and foremen who were doing experimental work. The amount expended for form labour on the Central Experimental Farm here of 467 acres amounted to $120,525. I have already pointed out that $18,008 was paid out in the province of Ontario Farms for farm labour, and $71,471 in the province of Quebec in connection with the 2,397 acres devoted to experimental work in that province; in Manitoba $21,383; Saskatchewan, $36,000; Alberta, $30,000; British Columbia, $52,000; Nova Scotia, $39,000; New Brunswick, $23,000; Prince Edward Island, $39,000, or a total of $452,388. The salaries under Civil Government of the Department of Agriculture at Ottawa, including those employed on these farms represents a further sum of $598,433.

Against this expenditure I might point out that the revenue from those farms totalling 11,270 acres amounting to only $102,607.44. It may be urged that a great deal of this work was devoted to experimental purposes. I grant that is so, but there is altogether too wide a margin between the heavy expenditure for farm labour and the 6mall revenue received .during the most critical year of the war for it to be passed over lightly. 11.270 acres with a staff of workmen such as apparently was never employed even during times of peace, should certainly show a better return. In my opinion the returns were altogether inadequate compared with the amount of money expended for labour on those farms.

I want to say with all the force or which I am capable that I believe there is something radically wrong in connection with the whole system as it is being conducted. I believe we have gotten away from the idea which animated those who established these farms, and in my opinion a frank discussion of the situation will bring about beneficial results. It is not a pleasant task for any one to criticize, but I have* paid very close attention to this matter for many years and I am forced to the conclusion that the present Experimental Farm system instead of giving a lead to the farmers of this country more often are simply endeavouring to copy methods which have been initiated by our most practical and energetic farmers.

I have already pointed out that the field crop of the Dominion for the year under consideration amounted to $1,367,909,970, and that the value of our live stock industry was about the same figure. ,1 have always believed that the people of a country that exports its raw materials are bound to be hewers of wood and drawers of water. Our exports should be the finished product, and I have not been one of those who have been lamenting the fact that Great Britain, in order to protect her home industry, has debarred the cattle of Canada from entering her markets as feeders. It is in the public interest and in the interest of agriculture that stock of that class should be finished on the hoof in this country before it is sent to the markets of the Old Country, as much as possible of our live stock should be finished at homei I, for one, was delighted to find that the Minister of Marine and Fisheries (Mr. Ballantyne), who is not in his seat, had been so successful in adopting a system of shipbuilding in this country, by which system we would be enabled to carry and take care of the exports of Canada. On a previous occasion I pointed out that 1 thought it would be in the interest of Canada if we had some such system as that so that we could give a preference to shipments of flour over shipments of wheat. As wheat is a convenient ballast, it is being carried by shipping companies at a much lower rate than flour. With a Government-owned system, we could reverse the procedure in that regard, and we would not be confronted with the difficulty which we are experiencing just now, namely that the millers have on hand an abundance of flour for which they can get no sale at a price in proportion to that which they have paid for wheat, and that, consequently, it has been absolutely impossible for Canadian stock raisers to procure the mill feeds which

are so essential for the finishing of live stock, an industry the immensity of which I have shown by quoting the value of live stock in this country at the present time. This is a matter on which our experimental farms should be able to supply evidence, and they should be able to show conclusively the values of some of the by-products.

I am referring to this more particularly for the reason that some time ago the Government and Parliament turned loose on this country fully armed and equipped what might be fittingly termed as commercial highwaymen rather than by the name under which they have gone. One of the first things they did was- to make an attack on those who were endeavouring to carry on in Ontario, and they confined their operations to that province. I refer to the Board of Commerce, so-called, because if there ever was a body of men who were less entitled to be called a Board of Commerce, I do not know where you could find them; they are commerce smashers in every sense of the word. Our experimental farm system has not been able to furnish evidence as to the cost of producing the articles upon which the Board of Commerce were endeavouring to fix prices, and I believe the result will be that inside of six months Government statistics will show that the bacon and pork industry of this country has been reduced by one-third, such result being largely attributable to the rulings of that board. Further, I believe that the dairying industry of this country has been crippled to an enormous extent as the result of one of the first acts of that board. Our experimental farrqs to which I have been referring should have been in a position to show the cost of producing milk and bacon in this country under present conditions, because we all know that conditions in connection with the feeding of live stock in Canada have not been normal for some time on account of the high cost of feed. But the situation is even worse than that. Some hon. members may have noticed certain questions which I placed on the Order Paper during the past few weeks with reference to millfeed and the by-products oi wheat, one question with regard to what is called standard stock feed being answered the other day. The Government have entered into an arrangement with the elevator companies by which the Government purchase their recleaned screenings and, with the approval of those engaged in carrying on experimental work in this country, send them broadcast throughout Canada.

This stuff, which has been sent broadcast, unground, is composed of over 10 per cent of the most dangerous noxious weeds of which it is possible to imagine. It is true that it has been stated in the press that the f irmers should see that this stuff is ground before it is fed, on account of the danger of the spread of noxious weeds. These are some of the things in regard to which oar demonstration or experimental farm system ras utterly failed. There should be a stirring up, and I am sure that the present Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Tol-inie), who understands so well and is so deeply interested in the live stock industry in this country, will see that steps are taken to remedy some of the abuses that have crept in. But it is quite apparent to any one and every one who drives through any of the old settled districts, yes, and unloitunately the new ones, when the weeds are in bloom, that only a comparatively very small proportion of the farms of Canada are to-day free from noxious weeds. This may seem a trifling matter to some people, and some may wonder why the farmers are leaving the farms and flocking to the cities as they have been doing. This condition is not confined to Canada or to any particular province; it has been a world-wide development of many years growth and I believe that the experimental farms can do a great deal to inform the people of Canada with regard to better methods, and assist in overcoming some of the difficulties and prejudices with which we are now confronted. It is a serious situation when you find that the descendants of the old stock which settled and developed this country are, in many instances, not to be found in the localities with which they were at one time so closely identified, there is a possible danger of our farms being occupied by people who are not of so high a standard as those who occupied them in the past, this would be a most unfortunate condition of affairs. When you allow your mind to review the situation, and when you see the numbers of young men who have been brought up to man's estate on the farms of Canada, who have gone to the towns and cities and entered into professional or business life, you can readily understand that they are a credit to the people who brought them up and to rural life. I for one would not discourage any young man from going from the farm to the city if it is in his interest to do so. I think it is one of the finest things that can possibly be imagined, that

tin of agricultural statistics in connection with the work that is being done in that (province outside of the Central . Farm at Ottawa. There is another pamphlet published monthly by the Department of Agriculture, a pamphlet that will be found on the desks in practically all the banks and public places throughout Ontario, and, I presume, throughout the other provinces of the Dominion. On its face there is a map of Canada showing the location of the experimental farms and demonstration stations throughout Canada, and the only point indicated in the province of Ontario is the small tobacco station in the county of Essex, the station at Kapuskasing, 600 miles to the north, and the Central Experimental Farm in the extreme east of the province. And yet this pamphlet is headed with the names of the Minister of Agriculture and the Director of the farms. I have in my hand the issue of November, 1919, and the following statement appears on its cover:

In the above outlined map note the location of experimental farms and stations. The superintendent of the experimental farm or station nearest to you will be pleased to give you any information in his power. Why not communicate with him?

Just imagine! !l should like to know with whom the people who are growing grapes, peaches and other fruits to which I have referred, in Western Ontario, are going to communicate-with the director of the tobacco-growing station at Harrow, or the director of the experimental station six hundred miles further north at Kapuskasing where such fruits are not grown? This is a fair illustration of the injustice that is being done to the province of Ontario in this respect. When this farm was established at Kapuskasing one was also established at Spirit lake, a short distance away in the province of Quebec. One station, apparently, would not do up in that northern country where conditions were the same in both provinces. No; Quebec had to have a farm also at that point. But in addition to this, you will find that Quebec, Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick are dotted with these experimental farms.

Now, we cannot close our eyes to the fact that to any prospective immigrant one of the chief considerations is the possibility of his becoming the owner of.some land on which he will be able to make a home for himself and thereby have a feeling of independence which it was impossible for him to have in his native country. He will naturally go to the Canadian Government

agents overseas, and to the booking agents, who will have stacks of literature supplied by the Dominion Government giving just such information with regard to our agricultural resources as persons emigrating are anxious to obtain. Well, immigrants will look at this map and will look among the Great Lakes of Western Ontario, and will inevitably come to the conclusion that in Ontario there is nothing but -waste land, a veritable desert, where the only oasis is Harrow devoted to the culture of tobacco. These reports undoubtedly have a great influence on the minds of prospective immigrants, for I know the truth of this statement by actual experience. I had something to do with the supplying of literature to prospective immigrants a few years ago, and I know that the reports contained in these pamphlets and bulletins are precisely the kind of information they inquire after; and if the province of Ontario is to be precluded from any possibility of even a fair show so far as obtaining immigrants is concerned, then let us be frank and say so at once.

As to the prospective immigrant, for many years when immigrants were coming into this country Ontario was very badly handicapped, in addition to the absence of this literature to which I have referred, by reason of the fact that we had been discriminated against toy the federal Government. I am referring to what took place previous to 1911. So much (was this the case that Ontario had to enter into immigration work itself; it had to open an office in Great Britain, send its own agents over there, and the Government at Ottawa refused booking agents the usual bonus ol $5 when booking immigrants who were sent to the Provincial Government for farm work. People ask the question: "How is it that the agricultural population of all Ontario has fallen off as it has?" It is .a surprise to me, in face of wtoat we have had to contend with, that we have there the population that we have to-day. I maintain that this matter ought to be attended to at the present session of Parliament. You may say: We will endeavour to do something a little later on. I am getting tired of being put off in that way. The Government has been altogether too procrastinating in that respect in the years that have passed. I regret that the hon. Minister of Finance (Sir Henry Drayton) is not in his place, because I am firmly convinced that there is no other source of revenue that will respond so generously to well directed

efforts along the lines to which I have referred as the province of Ontario. But (give her a fair show.

Topic:   EXPERIMENTAL FARM SYSTEM.
Subtopic:   MOTION BY MR. SUTHERLAND THAT THE SYSTEM BE EXTENDED IN ONTARIO.
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UNION

Simon Fraser Tolmie (Minister of Agriculture)

Unionist

Hon. S. F. TOLMIE (Minister of Agriculture) :

Mr. Speaker, I have listened with a great deal of pleasure to the hon. member for South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland! speaking on the question of experimental farms. I am very glad indeed that he has brought this important matter to the attention of the House. I quite agree with him when he says that there is no possible line along which, under present conditions, this country can expend money with such safety as agriculture:

There seems to be a great deal of misapprehension in some quarters concerning the work of the experimental farms and the great service that they are rendering to this country. In the efforts of those engaged in experimental work upon the farms, they aim to increase quantity in the productions of the soil, to improve quality, to reduce all obstructions to production, to count the cost of production, to minimize loss and increase returns by the employment of better methods. To accomplish this the work on the farms is divided into research, investigation, illustration, assistance, prevention, propaganda and administration. These various branches of course have to work interdependently, one line very much with the other, to accomplish the best results. In research work we find that our plant men at the experimental farms have been able to provide for the agriculturists of this country many new and valuable varieties of grains. They have also done a great deal in discovering diseases affecting plants. They have introduced better farming methods, all of which have resulted in enormous gains to the country.

Take the case of Marquis wheat. Sometimes we hear this laughed at, and it is said that when anybody criticizes the Experimental Farms we always point to Marquis wheat. If we do point to Marquis wheat we are pointing to something that we may well be proud of. In five years it is estimated that Marquis wheat has increased the yield at the rate of over $20,000,000 per year in the three Prairie Provinces alone. This wheat developed at our Experimental Farms is an improvement on the old varieties because it possesses a shorter and stiffer straw and yields from 4 to 6 bushels per acre more than do such varieties as Red Fife.

Topic:   EXPERIMENTAL FARM SYSTEM.
Subtopic:   MOTION BY MR. SUTHERLAND THAT THE SYSTEM BE EXTENDED IN ONTARIO.
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UNION

John Hampden Burnham

Unionist

Mr. BURNHAM:

Has the minister entered into the production of a new wheat which is going to double the quantity produced by the variety that he refers to.

Topic:   EXPERIMENTAL FARM SYSTEM.
Subtopic:   MOTION BY MR. SUTHERLAND THAT THE SYSTEM BE EXTENDED IN ONTARIO.
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UNION

Simon Fraser Tolmie (Minister of Agriculture)

Unionist

Mr. TOLMIE:

Is the hon. gentleman

referring to Marquis wheat?

Topic:   EXPERIMENTAL FARM SYSTEM.
Subtopic:   MOTION BY MR. SUTHERLAND THAT THE SYSTEM BE EXTENDED IN ONTARIO.
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UNION

John Hampden Burnham

Unionist

Mr. BURNHAM:

No, but to a new wheat.

Topic:   EXPERIMENTAL FARM SYSTEM.
Subtopic:   MOTION BY MR. SUTHERLAND THAT THE SYSTEM BE EXTENDED IN ONTARIO.
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UNION

Simon Fraser Tolmie (Minister of Agriculture)

Unionist

Mr. TOLMIE:

Our Experimental Farms are investigating a number of new varieties of wheat. They are keeping in very-close touch with that work and as developments occur they will give them to the public. In addition to the Marquise they have developed the Preston, Stanley, and Huron: varieties of wheat. It is estimated that these have increased the yields of other provinces to the value of half a million dollars. They have also placed on the market the Daubenay, Victoria, and .Banner oats. It is estimated after a careful calculation that these varieties have increased the yields by $9,000,000 per year. They have produced many varieties of new barley, flax, peas, and other grains which have increased the yields to the extent of $3,000,000 a year. Among the new varieties being investigated are Ruby wheat, and Liberty oats, which will also add many millions of dollars to the value of the yields of these crops as soon as the quantities secured are sufficient to enable these varieties to be grown in a commercial way.

The orchard and gardening sections of the Experimental Farms have also rendered very valuable service. They have produced the Melba apple, Early Malcolm corn and Alacrity tomato, all of which are now being grown for the market. They are investigating the production of hardy vari-ties of fruit for the prairie sections of the country. In forage crops they have attained some signal successes such as the production of a perennial variety of clover. Perhaps nobody will realize to a greater extent than the hon. member for South Oxford how valuable it is to have a perennial variety of clover as distinguished from one which is only annual or biennial.

In the division of chemistry, we are carrying on a very valuable work in testing soils as to their productivity and also research work showing the value of clover, alfalfa and other leguminous crops with reference to their ability to extract nitrogen from the air and convey it to the soil. As was points ed out by the hon. member (Mr. Sutherland) it is only by the use- of leguminous crops that we can hope very largely to maintain the fertility of our soil. I want to emphasize the importance of the work of

Topic:   EXPERIMENTAL FARM SYSTEM.
Subtopic:   MOTION BY MR. SUTHERLAND THAT THE SYSTEM BE EXTENDED IN ONTARIO.
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UNION

Donald Sutherland

Unionist

Mr. SUTHERLAND:

I might say that the system of keeping a record of the production of dairy cows originated with the late E. V. Tilson, of Tilsonburg, who had a herd of some sixtydive dairy cows, mostly of Holstein grades, and who brought his average production up to somewhere in the neighbourhood of 12,000 pounds per cow. One cow alone produced about 24,000 pounds and this was such an evidence of the value of

keeping records that the system was adopted by all experimental farms and agricultural colleges. The late E. V. Tilson was the man who demonstrated most successfully the value of that work in the first instance.

Topic:   EXPERIMENTAL FARM SYSTEM.
Subtopic:   MOTION BY MR. SUTHERLAND THAT THE SYSTEM BE EXTENDED IN ONTARIO.
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UNION

Simon Fraser Tolmie (Minister of Agriculture)

Unionist

Mr. TOLMIE:

I wish to thank the hon. gentleman for this information. I did not know that the system had originated in Ontario. My first information with respect to the testifig of cows had reference to the work carried on in Denmark and in Wisconsin and some of the other states in the South.

In regard to poultry we are carrying on some research work with very excellent results, such as different methods for incubation and different kinds of incubators for hatching eggs. We have one incubator out at the Farm now with a capacity of 10,000 eggs. Work is likewise being carried on with respect to brooding machines and the better housing of poultry. Work is in operation there that any one can benefit by, where the various kinds of poultry houses are found to be in use and their operations so explained that any one interested in poultry can derive the very fullest information. You will be surprised, Mr. Speaker, to know that poultry diseases are responsible for a loss in this country of some seven and a half million dollars per year. We have a man investigating along these lines at the present time and we are hoping to give him an assistant before very long. In addition to increasing our yield both of livestock and crops I believe it is just as important to conserve all we possibly can and stop existing leaks.

In connection with the tobacco industry we are also carrying on investigations with reference to the distribution of seed, cultivation, warehousing, and at the present time we have a representation of our department overseas to get all the information he possibly can with a view to improving the market for the Canadian tobacco producers.

We also do a little bee work out at the Farm in connection with winter feeding, housing, and the development of the honey producing industry in every possible way.

Investigations are being carried on with regard to flax but there is no need for me to dwell on that industry as the subject has been very fully discussed here recently-

We are making every possible effort to reach the people through our publications and through the press. We encourage visits to these farms where farmers can investigate for themselves and where everything

is very fully explained to them. In this way I think the Experimental Farms are rendering a very valuable service to this country,-one that we hardly sufficiently realize and one that is certainly not appreciated by the man who is not an actual practical farmer. Only the other day I had a farmer from the old country out at the Experimental Farm. He was very enthusiastic indeed over the system and over the Farm and the opportunities that it afforded the farmer to secure every possible [DOT] information that can be obtained in connection with this work and at no cost to himself. In such a vast country as ours where the conditions vary very much in different sections, it is necessary that a great deal of experimental work should be carried on, especially in view of the development of our agricultural resources, and I agree with the hon. member for South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland) that money is well spent along these lines.

In regard to the resolution, I can hardly agree with the hon. member that there has been any unfairness in the treatment of Ontario. While the Central Experimental Farm here does work that is of value to all the other provinces, still it is rendering a special service to Ontario inasmuch as it is easily accessible to the great majority of the farmers of this province. In locating these experimental farms our aim is not provincial, but rather to meet the varying conditions which are found to exist throughout the Dominion. We expend on experimental farms in Ontario about $409,979 annually, and it will be found that we are expending in that province more money per head of population than in any other province.

The limits of extension of our experimental farm system have not by any means been reached; many sections still require these farms, and I have a great deal of sympathy for the suggestion of the hon. member that an experimental farm is necessary in western Ontario. He was rather a good prophet, however, when he predicted that I would make the excuse of our finances being short this year as the reason for not undertaking any further extension of our system. That is mainly the excuse which I have to offer, and I am inclined to think that if he had had my experience of the difficulties of trying to get money, he rwould accept my excuse without demur. I feel there is room for extension work not only in Ontario but in many of the other provinces, including northern British Columbia, the Peace River district, southwestern

Saskatchewan, and probably the provinces to the east of us.

To give you an idea, Mr. Speaker, of the wonderful variety of the conditions we have to deal with, I may say that on the farm at Sydney, a feiw miles from Victoria, B.C., we are growing figs and oranges in the open. After my experience of two springs in Ontario I would be very loath to recommend this climate for the culture of such fruits. The contrast is striking, and it well illustrates the necessity' for experimental stations all over the country.

The hon. member referred to the very heavy expenditure for wages during the year 1918-19. It will be remembered that a very special effort was made during that year to produce as mudh root seed a.s possible, for the reason that before the war we had been depending largely on Germany for our supply, and that source being cut off it was absolutely necessary to produce our seed at home. I 'am glad to say that many sections took up this branch of agriculture with very good results, and we are now producing seed second to none.

My hon. friend stated that the Board of Commerce paralysed the pork industry. I think that statement needs to be qualified somewhat, because if he had watched the markets very closely he would have noticed that the prices fell in Chicago before the order of the Board of Commerce was issued. As a matter of fact the markets across the water were "plugged," and packers cannot send pork to a market that does not want it. Finding that their output was cut off, the packers promptly began to "shorten up" at this end. No doubt the condition is largely due to the financial situation overseas, where in many instances it is impossible to make arrangements to guarantee payment for what is sold. Under these conditions it was only natural that the packers in self defence and to make themselves safe should limit their purchases of pork.

I would like to say to the hon. member, Mr. Speaker, that I heartily sympathize with his plea for an experimental farm in western Ontario, and I shall be very glad to -move in the matter as soon as financial conditions will permit. Therefore I hope he will consent to withdraw his resolution.

Topic:   EXPERIMENTAL FARM SYSTEM.
Subtopic:   MOTION BY MR. SUTHERLAND THAT THE SYSTEM BE EXTENDED IN ONTARIO.
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UNION

William Smith

Unionist

Mr. WILLIAM SMITH (Ontario South):

Mr. Speaker, I have listened with a great deal of interest and pleasure to the speeches of the hon. member for South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland) and the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Tolmie), particularly so as I am

[Mr. Tolmie. 3

personally very much interested in the subject under discussion. I may be excused if I say that to a certain extent I was a party to the establishment of our experimental farms many years ago, and I do not think any one will take exception to the statement that they were established on right lines and have accomplished a great deal of good.

My only object in rising, Mr. Speaker, is to state that I think the Minister of Agriculture might have gone one step further- and so might the hon. member for South Oxford-for it appears to me that while these farms have accomplished a great deal, what we want to-day is to show the farmer how he can make farming pay. To that end I would like to see the Department of Agriculture set aside in different places throughout the Dominion a certain acreage of land and put a man upon it with an understanding that he must make that farm pay. Then we will know exactly what can be accomplished. Until that is done, all these experimental farms, whilst they are accomplishing a great deal of good, and whilst I value highly their record and believe that they will do a great deal to serve agriculture in the days to come, yet it appears to me that one of the most practical methods to adopt is to prove to the farmer that his farm can be made to pay interest upon his investment.

I realize to the fullest extent that it is extremely hard to make both ends meet, and in view of our present financial conditions I sympathize with the Minister of Agriculture, but it appears to me that as soon as the finances of the country will allow, he should set aside farms of so many acres in one place and another from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and put in charge of those farms practical men, so that they may be able to demonstrate that farming can be made to pay. Then I say that his department will be doing one of the best things that it has ever accomplished for the benefit of agriculture.

Topic:   EXPERIMENTAL FARM SYSTEM.
Subtopic:   MOTION BY MR. SUTHERLAND THAT THE SYSTEM BE EXTENDED IN ONTARIO.
Permalink
UNION

Donald Sutherland

Unionist

Mr. SUTHERLAND:

Mr. Speaker-

Topic:   EXPERIMENTAL FARM SYSTEM.
Subtopic:   MOTION BY MR. SUTHERLAND THAT THE SYSTEM BE EXTENDED IN ONTARIO.
Permalink
UNION

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Unionist

Mr. SPEAKER:

I must point out to the House that after the mover of the resolution exercises his right to reply the debate will be closed.

Mr. J. E. S. E. d'ANJOU (Rimouski) (Translation): Mr. Speaker, representing,

,as 'I do, a division which is essentially made up of farmers, I feel in duty bound to express my opinion on the question so ably submitted by the houourable member for South Oxford (Mr. Sutherland). I must

first 'congratulate any honourable friend on his persistence in dealing with this matter at every session. Surely, this resolution is one of the most reasonable which have been submitted to the House, this year. iSome of the resolutions presented this session did advocate the establishment of systems which would have entailed a fabulous expenditure of money with no practical result in the public interest. The honourable minister of Agriculture concluded his speech by a statement to the 'effect that new experimental farms would be established in the province of Ontario whenever our financial circumstances permitted of it. I 'understand that this is the main object of the resolution. But Ontario is not the only province comprising rural constituencies where experimental farms would be of the utmost importance. The county of Ri-mouski, for instance, would be an ideal situation for an experimental farm. It is settled by farmers, as I have already said, and there are model farmers in that riding who, take the first prizes as against all other competitors, at every exhibition. Therefore, when the Government deems it proper to establish new experimental farms in Ontario, they should see to it that such a farm is also established in Ri-mouski, and I now rise in the name of the electors of that division to voice such a request. True it is that the present financial condition of the country is deplorable, but it seems that the Government would never toe expending too much money to encourage our main industry. If Canada is to come out of the rut and to take her flight towards prosperity, it is, necessary that we should encourage agriculture, a source of wealth above all, which will help us, in a large measure, to pay the accumulated debts and the expenses resulting from the war. The Government, levish as they are when about buying railways or granting contracts for millions of dollars without calling for tenders, should not hold out as a pretence that our financial condition does not now allow of increasing the number of experimental farms whether in Ontario or in any other one of the provinces. As was said by the speakers who have preceded me, it is a well known fact that experimental farms do render very great services in the localities where they are established, and such is their importance that the Government should not hesitate to establish some Wherever they are needed,, especially in

the county which I have the honour to represent.

A resolution was moved by an honourable member, the other day, to the effect that we should organize an army in Canada. To my mind, the army which we ought to organize should include but soldiers of the soil and have nothing to do with future wars. I think the Government would be justified in adopting the resolution moved toy the honourable member for South-Oxford and carrying it out through the establishment Of new experimental farms in the different provinces. They would show, thereby, their desire to promote the welfare of 'Canada and enable her to pay her debt and to be progressive again as she was from 1896 to 1911.

Topic:   EXPERIMENTAL FARM SYSTEM.
Subtopic:   MOTION BY MR. SUTHERLAND THAT THE SYSTEM BE EXTENDED IN ONTARIO.
Permalink
UNION

Orren D. Casselman

Unionist

Mr. CASSELMAN:

I move the adjournment of the debate.

Topic:   EXPERIMENTAL FARM SYSTEM.
Subtopic:   MOTION BY MR. SUTHERLAND THAT THE SYSTEM BE EXTENDED IN ONTARIO.
Permalink
UNION

Donald Sutherland

Unionist

Mr. SUTHERLAND:

Mr. Speaker,

Topic:   EXPERIMENTAL FARM SYSTEM.
Subtopic:   MOTION BY MR. SUTHERLAND THAT THE SYSTEM BE EXTENDED IN ONTARIO.
Permalink
UNION

Edgar Nelson Rhodes (Speaker of the House of Commons)

Unionist

Mr. SPEAKER:

This motion is not debatable.

Topic:   EXPERIMENTAL FARM SYSTEM.
Subtopic:   MOTION BY MR. SUTHERLAND THAT THE SYSTEM BE EXTENDED IN ONTARIO.
Permalink

Motion agreed to, and the debate adjourned.


April 7, 1920