Mr. McKENZIE:

They cannot carry a

pound of freight from one Canadian port to another Canadian port. When we are carrying coal from North Sydney to Montreal, that is, of course, from one Canadian port to another. They cannot handle that trade. Therefore, it is highly important that our boats should do the business-I am not suggesting that they do it for nothing-as cheaply as possible and put us on an independent footing, so that our companies can make contracts with Quebec, Montreal and other places, knowing that they will always have the steamers to carry the coal. The minister is, perhaps, not aware that this is the situation to-day.

I have made inquiries of the Marine and Customs Departments within the last two days, and I was positively informed tonight, that no Norwegian boat, nor any

other foreign boat, can carry freight between any one port and another in Canada.

Sir GEORGE FOSTER:

Unless they reciprocate with our vessels. I suppose that is the principle.

Mr. McKENZIE:

That is the situation

now. We have nothing to send to Norway, and there is nothing to do after we get there, so that reciprocity would be of no good to us. I am very glad, for one thing, that we have those ships, and I am sure the minister will keep in mind, in co-operation with the other department, that that is the best service in which they can 'be used.

Mr. BUTTS:

My hon. friend (Mr. Mc-

Kenzie) has spoken a number of times about those ships and about the St. Lawrence coal trade. He referred to the matter several days ago in the House. I think I am not going too far when I tell my hon. friend that I have it on very credible authority that those ships that he speaks of as being tied up in different ports, are now under repairs and being refitted for the coal trade of the coming summer, and that they are now under contract and will likely be in the coal trade carrying coal from Sydney Harbour to Montreal and the different St. Lawrence ports.

Sir GEORGE FOSTER:

That answers

the question of my hon. friend.

Mr. McKENZIE:

I am glad that the

hon. member has come to the assistance of the minister. My right hon. friend did not know what was going on in his department. Now we have it on the highest possible authority that certain repairs are going on and possibly some contracts will be entered into.

Sir GEORGE FOSTER:

My hon. friend ought to be satisfied.

Mr. SINCLAIR (Guysborough) :

Another feature of this matter that I do not think the minister has looked into is the enormous expense he will incur in running this service to New Zealand and Australia by these large Governement boats if there is no trade for them. If it is true that the service that we now have is able to carry the goods that are passing between Vancouver and Australia and New Zealand, why are we proposing now to put on five 8,000-ton boats to compete with the service that we are now subsidizing? This is what the Minister of Marine and Fisheries says:

Vancouver-Australia and New Zealand service. Established February 23, 1920: Monthly sailings: Allotted five 8,100-ton steamers: These

steamers call, East and West bound, at Wellington, Auckland, Sydney and Melbourne.

The expenditure of running these five large steamers between Vancouver and Australia will be enormous. They have to plough their way through the Pacific ocean burning coal that will cost some six dollars a ton. You cannot expect them to run for a day with less than fifty tons of coal, so that that amounts to $300. Therefore, the five boats will take at least $1,500 worth of coal per day to keep them running on the Pacific ocean, and the coal is only a small item compared with wages and other expenses to keep these steamers in commission. This looks to me like an insane proposal unless the minister can show an enormous increase in trade between Vancouver and those ports in Australia and New Zealand. The Marine Department are proposing to put those five large government owned boats on that service, the Minister of Trade and Commerce is proposing to subsidize * the old service that carried the trade before, and we have no information at all to show us that there is any need of putting those new boats on. The minister ought to take my advice and stop asking for the passing of this item until he consults the Minister of Marine' and Fisheries in order to find out just where he stands in regard to this matter.

Mr. ROSS:

In answer to a question

I asked, the minister stated that some 9,000 passengers were carried from Vancouver to Australia. Did he mean that the subsidized boats had carried 9,000 passengers?

Sir GEORGE FOSTER:

Yes.

Mr. ROSS:

Did he also mean that the

$5,000,000 worth of goods shipped from Canada to Australia was carried by those boats?

Sir GEORGE FOSTER:

Yes.

Mr. ROSS:

What is the tonnage of those boats?

Mr. PECK:

Some of the boats that run

to Australia are first class ships of ten, twelve and fifteen thousand tons. Our ships are not in the same class.

Sir GEORGE FOSTER:

The tonnage

of the Makura is gross, 8,200 and the Niagara, 13,444.

Mr. ROSS:

Our ships are 8,100 tons.

Sir GEORGE FOSTER:

Yes.

Mr. SINCLAIR (Guysborough):

Has this contract been renewed for the coming year?