Mr. WILLIAM IRVINE (Calgary East) :

Mr. Speaker, I have the honour to ask leave to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the serious crisis developing at the present time in Nova Scotia between the miners of District No. 26 and the British Empire Steel Corporation.

Mr. FIELDING:

The hon. gentleman desires to have an opportunity of addressing the House on this subject- There is no objection.

Mr. IRVINE:

Mr. Speaker, I presume

that already most hon. members are aware of the situation in Nova Scotia for the discussion of which I now move the adjournment of the House. It is generally understood, I believe, that a difficulty has developed between the British Empire Steel Corporation and the coal miners of Nova Scotia, involving about twelve thousand men. The difficulty began about 1st January, when the company made a wage cut of about 37i per cent. Incidentally I might

point out that the cost of living in Nova Scotia is about 17 per cent higher than in Alberta, yet the wages are 71 per cent lower. Naturally the men concerned resisted this reduction. A conciliation board was granted. I understand that the hon. Minister of Labour (Mr. Murdock) appointed the chairman of that board because the representatives of the parties had some difficulty in agreeing on one themselves. The chairman was from Ontario. It seems that the conclusion which the committee arrived at was not very satisfactory to the men. It happened that the chairman agreed with the representative of the company, and I understand that his casting vote carried the day. The recommendation was that a 32 i per cent cut of wages should be put into effect instead of the 371 per cent that was previously imposed by the company; but a minority report was submitted recommending a 14 per cent reduction on contracts and a minimum on the datal rate of $3.50. The majority report was submitted to the men and was rejected by an almost unanimous vote. Following this the miners considered the whole situation at a general convention, after which a delegation was sent to Montreal and negotiations were re-opened between them and the operators, which resulted in the latter granting $2.85 or slightly over that to the datal men. This was submitted to the men and was also rejected.

Now, immediately on the wage cut being put into effect by the company the men, of their own volition, naturally struck on the job. That is, they said to themselves: We will not continue to produce coal which will make very high profits for the corporation at a wage on which we cannot live; and this is commonly called "striking on the job." It might be pointed out here that the miners were not in a position to strike in the ordinary way for the reason that they had already expended almost their entire surplus funds in giving relief to their fellows who have been suffering from lack of nourishment and proper attention throughout the past winter. I do not know whether it was decided at any particular meeting or whether the strike leaders authorized it, but it was decided almost unanimously by the men that they would lower production of coal to a point about corresponding to what they are getting in wages.

The fact of the matter is that the coal is not being produced at the present time, which is an economic waste; and the second fact is that the men are not getting a liv-

Nova Scotia Miners

ing wage, and the stories which are coming through of the conditions in Nova Scotia almost rival those that have come to us from the famine districts of the Volga. We hear of children under-nourished and suffering sickness; we hear of an increase in the death rate; we hear of parents being summoned by the educational authorities for not being able to send their children to school because they cannot buy them boots and clothes and properly nourish them. I do not think it necessary for me to bring that information to the notice of the Government, for I believe they are already well acquainted with it, but I may say that those stories are coming from authoritative sources.

Now, there are about twelve thousand men and their families involved in this situation; and we understand, both from the organized labour movement of that province, and from the delegation which is at present in the city of Ottawa to meet the Government in consultation on this matter, that the men have about reached the limit of their endurance, and must of necessity secure a settlement of some kind at the very earliest possible moment. In order to secure that settlement they have sought in a proper British manner to secure some amelioration through constitutional means. They made their appeal first of all to the provincial government, and I understand that that government has absolutely refused to have anything to do with the matter.

Mr. MACDONALD (Pictou):

Would my hon. friend tell Us where he has received that information?

Mr. IRVINE:

I have received that information, Mr. Speaker, from the delegation that is here waiting upon the Government to deal with this matter, and I have also received it from the organized labour movement of Nova Scotia. I have a copy of that information before me. Having failed to get redress at the hands of the local government, they have sent a delegation to Ottawa, consisting of mayors from the four mining towns of Nova Scotia, namely, Mayor Morrison, of Glace Bay; Mayor Ling, of New Waterford; Mayor McLean of Dominion, and Mayor Wilson, of Spring Hill. They have presented the miners' case to the Government, and I understand that they have not received a satisfactory answer. I am advised that the Government has practically refused to take any definite action. I have here the answer which was given to the delegation

by the hon. Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King), and I will read it to the House:

Referring to the request made by yourself and Messrs McLean, Ling and Wilson at the interview with certain of my colleagues and myself in my office yesterday, that a Royal Commission be appointed forthwith to investigate matters pertaining to the coal mining industry in the Province of Nova Scotia, I beg to inform you that the Government has had this matter under consideration and is of the opinion that the situation is not one which in the public interest can be satisfactorily dealt with under the existing circumstances by a Royal Commission. .

Now, while it may be perfectly true that a royal commission would not be able to do anything of very material benefit, yet apparently the Government does not propose to take any other course that would be better than the appointment of a royal commission. So we take it that the note virtually means that the Government has no intention of taking any particular action in the circumstances. I wish to read for the information of the House just a line or two from the manifesto presented by this delegation:

We feel that the situation will never be understood until a commission of sympathetic, just and competent inyestigators have gone into the mining districts of Nova Scotia and seen things for themselves; until they have seen with their own eyes the conditions under which these people are expected to live and bring up healthy families.

The delegation asks that a commission be appointed to investigate this matter. I may say that these delegates are not representative simply of labour organizations, they are mayors of towns, representatives of the citizens of Nova Scotia; and the matter with which they deal is of vital concern to almost everybody in that province. I repeat that they are not here to put forward any particular type of labour propaganda; they are here as representative citizens to consult the Government on a matter of real public importance.

Now, the point I wish to make is this. The miners of Nova Scotia have appealed to the constitutional authorities of this country to deal with a condition which to them is unbearable. The provincial authority says that it cannot or will not act; this Government says, or virtually says, it cannot act. Well, who is going to act? If these men cannot obtain redress by constitutional methods, what are they to do? Will any hon. gentleman tell us what they are to do? If they are receiving a wage upon which they cannot live; if they are contracting disease and, in some

Nova Scotia Miners

cases, dying through lack of nourishment, they must have some kind of redress; and if neither the provincial government nor the Dominion Government will take action, what is to be the outcome? It is too late for us to talk when things happen; now is the time for this Government-or some other government; we want to know where the authority is-to deal with this matter. Surely there is some constitutional authority which will face the situation and undertake to see that a fair deal is given both to the corporation and to the miners. I am not here to plead for anything that would not he fair to the corporation; I want to see the company as well as the miners get a square deal. But if we refuse to listen to the appeal of these men, I ask again, what is going to be the outcome? Human nature can only stand so much; if it gets a little more than it can stand, what is going to happen?

I would like to make a suggestion, Mr. Speaker, and if I am not in order in doing so, it will not be much trouble to you to tell me that I am out of order. I would suggest that some one-say, Mr. Howard Ross, K.C., of Montreal, or some one else of similar standing-be appointed by this Government to investigate the whole situation with a view to arriving at a sane settlement.

I need not remind you of the history of this particular corporation; hon. members undoubtedly know what that history is. They know of the recent great merger under which there was formed a gigantic corporation which practically controls a monopoly of the. coal output of Nova Scotia. I understand also that this company through its manager has been enabled to create watered stock to the amount of some $19,000,000. If it is necessary to pay dividends upon that amount of watered stock, surely it can only be done by reducing the wages of the producers, particularly when the corporation has to compete in the coal markets of the world. I am led to believe that that is exactly what is taking place: the company is seeking to reduce wages to the point which will enable it to make sufficient profits on its watered stock, as well as on its dry stock, if you like, to make it worth while to carry on business. Perhaps you know also that this great corporation was refused a charter by the late government of this Dominion and was granted it by the provincial government. There is a Liberal government in power in Nova Scotia, and we have a Liberal Government here. Sir, the question of politics 32*

does not enter into this matter; I hope it is not simply because a Liberal government happens to be in power in Nova Scotia that the present federal Government does not see its way clear to take some action. This is a matter of great importance; it involves not only the rights of 12,000 workingmen in Nova Scotia, but the rights and privileges of the people generally of that province. In fact, if you look at the question closely you will see that it is of national importance. Therefore I would like to hear this House discuss the matter in all its phases and decide upon some course of action.

Mr. DONALD M. KENNEDY (West Edmonton) : I wish to speak briefly, Mr. Speaker, in support of this motion. The Government cannot get away from its responsibility in this matter. Both Liberal and Conservative governments have given grants of large amounts to the companies that have been merged to form what is now the British Empire Steel Corporation and to that extent the Dominion authority is responsible for the establishing of this industry. Something like $15,000,000 or $20,000,000 has been granted to these companies. Therefore it is the duty of this Government to do whatever it can to bring about a settlement which will be fair in every way to the men who are doing the work in this industry. After all, is it the purpose of this industry merely to turn out icoal, steel plates, and so on? Should it not also provide a good living for the men who are doing the work in connection with it? I think it is the duty of the Government to investigate the whole matter, and to do so in a sympathetic manner. Let it find the best men it can to assume the responsibility of getting at the facts and of trying to effect a settlement which will be fair and just to all parties concerned.

Mr. W. F. CARROLL (Cape Breton South and Richmond) :

Mr. Speaker, I happen to be one of the representatives from South Cape Breton and Richmond where the large bulk of miners of Nova Scotia work and reside. I am deeply interested in the success of the coal mines in that province, and I am equally interested in the welfare of the miners and workingmen generally, especially of those engaged in the coal industry on the island of Cape Breton.

The delegation to which my hon. friend from Calgary (Mr. Irvine) has referred was introduced to the Government by hon. members from Nova Scotia including my-

Nova Scotia Miners

self, and their case was fairly and vigorously placed before the members of the Government then present. The Government saw fit, yesterday evening I think, to advise that delegation that it would not at this juncture establish a royal commission to investigate the coal industry in the province of Nova Scotia and to re-canvass the whole situation in that province. That, in effect, I think, was the answer of the Government.

The situation in the coal fields of Nova Scotia at the present time is a most serious one, and if anything could be done to help bring together the coal operators and the coal miners and secure better co-operation in the operation of the mines of that province, it would1 be a splendid thing. I am in no way talking for the Government or any member of it. I have lived with the coal miners in the county of Cape Breton for the past sixteen or seventeen years, and a finer body of men does not exist in this Dominion. It is true that they did not treat myself very well during the last campaign, but that, of course, does not enter into the consideration of the question which my hon- friend from Calgary has brought before the House.

The hon. member for Calgary has told us that this Government appointed the chairman of the conciliation board established by the Minister of Labour in the last Government, Hon. Senator Robertson. The facts are that the miners appointed as their representative Mayor Ling, an estimable man, who has been a coal miner himself. The Dominion Coal Company which operates the mines, refused to name a man, and Senator Robertson therefore appointed a gentleman to represent them. These two could not agree on the third arbitrator, and so when the present Government came into power the Minister of Labour (Mr. Murdock) appointed U. E. Gillen, from the city of Toronto, as chairman of the board. That board held its meetings in the city of Halifax- Personally, I think it would have been much better if the board had sat in the town of Glace Bay, which is the centre of coal operations in the province of Nova Scotia, because the members would then have been able to see for themselves the actual conditions among the miners and could have had at a moment's notice any evidence which it would have been proper to bring before the tribunal. They sat, however, in the city of Halifax, and subsequently they made certain recommendations. That, of course, was the only thing

they could do, because, as I understand it, neither the Labour people nor those who have put their capital in industrial enterprise in this country, wish to have compulsory arbitration; neither party wishes to be bound to accept the findings of an arbitration board. I remember that while discussing in Parliament, in 1912 or 1913, a coal strike in the province of British Columbia in which there had been an arbitration, the findings of which were very much in favour of the miners, I suggested that it might be well if there were some way of enforcing the findings of that particular arbitration and of future arbitrations. But immediately I had letters from all of the large labour unions in this country telling me that while I had done them some service in bringing this matter before the House and the government of the day, the unions of this country were not in favour of compulsory arbitration and I think, perhaps, when everything is said and done, that they are taking the proper stand. So there is no way of enforcing the awards of a conciliation board.

The conciliation board that sat in Halifax brought in its findings, and I am not here to say whether those findings were or were not based on the evidence which came before the board. I understand that the Dominion Coal Company, at the request of members of the board, introduced as evidence the cost sheets of the company, and that the arbitrators had the right to go into these cost sheets and ascertain for themselves just what it was costing the Dominion Coal Company to mine coal. With that and other evidence before them I think the board should have been in a position to bring in very fair findings, but I am bound to say that some of the findings in detail do not seem to me to have been well thought out. However, I am not here to criticise the findings of that board. The mine workers refused to accept the recommendations of that board, and the Dominion Coal Company, which is part of the British Empire Steel Corporation, went into further conferences with the men, through the executive of the United Mine Workers of America, to which organization the miners of Nova Scotia belong. Conferences took place in the city of Montreal, and after some time a majority of that board agreed to certain proposals made by representatives of the Dominion Coal Company. I think the executive board, while in the city of Montreal, consisted of seven members, and four of

Nova Scotia Miners

that executive representing the United Mine Workers, signed a statement that the additional proposals of the Dominion Coal Company should be recommended to the good judgment of the miners of Nova Scotia and accepted by them as a working agreement until such time as further negotiations could take place. The recommendation was sent to various labour councils in the province of Nova Scotia, and a vote was taken upon it, but, strange to say, a week or so before the miners were to vote on the acceptance of that proposed agreement the executive of the United Mine Workers of America broke over it, and we found three members of the United Mine Workers, the secretary-treasurer and two district board representatives, going out among the miners in the various coal centres of Nova Scotia exhorting them not to accept the working arrangement which had been agreed to by a majority of the board in the City of Montreal. We also find those who favoured the agreement proposed by the company going out and opposing their brothers of the executive, and advising the miners of Nova Scotia to accept the proposals of the Dominion Coal Company. However, the result was that the miners, by an extremely large majority-I think seven to one-voted to turn down the agreement, and said they were not going to work under it. I want to point out that the proposals of the Dominion Coal Company and the arrangement which formed the basis of the agreement arrived at in the city of Montreal did increase the wages of the datal men beyond what were recommended by the members of the conciliation board, although the increase was small it is true. The wage, which had been cut down to $2.68, was increased to $3. Under the recommendations of the board it would have been $2.85. So that a minimum wage of $3 was established for these men who are not paid by contract but on a basis of what is ordinarily termed piece work. However, the agreement, as I have said, was turned down, and so the miners of Nova Scotia have reverted, as far as their wages are concerned, to the findings of the conciliation board of which Mr. Gillen of Toronto was chairman; and they are in a worse position than they would have been had they accepted the further proposals contemplated by the agreement entered into by the operators and by a majority of the board.

Knowing the career in this country of my hon. friend (Mr. Irvine) who moved the

adjournment, I know that he is wholeheartedly in favour of the labour people of this country getting a fair show. So am I, Sir; that is the position I have taken ever since I first participated in the politics of this country, and even before that. Now the trouble seems to be that, so far as legislation enacted by this Parliament is concerned, there remains nothing else to be done, and the federal government has refused to appoint a royal commission to consider the question. My hon. friend from East Calgary (Mr. Irvine) has stated that the United Mine Workers have done everything they could to cause the Government of Nova Scotia to act, but without avail. I can tell my hon. friend that he is somewhat mistaken in that statement. I have kept in the very closest touch with the situation since coming here, and I am aware that last week the Minister of Mines for Nova Scotia, Hon. Mr. Armstrong, wired Mr. Baxter, who is president of the United Mine Workers of America in that district, inviting him to come to Halifax,-and I may say in passing that Mr. Baxter is one of those who recommended to the miners under his charge, the adoption of the agreement entered into in Montreal. At a joint meeting held in the New Savoy theatre in Glace Bay last Sunday night, at which Mr. Mc-Lachlan, the secretary-treasurer, and Mr. Baxter, the president-who are taking opposite sides on this matter-were present, Mr. Baxter made the statement that Mr. Armstrong, provincial Minister of Mines, informed him that if the miners in the district would go back to work and not loaf on the job-as they were advised to do and as I think they are doing to some extent-he would appoint a royal commission to investigate the whole coal mine situation in the province of Nova Scotia. I am sorry to say that, according to my advices and instructions from that meeting his recommendations in effect were turned down. My hon. friend from East Calgary says that the coal miners have exhausted all their appeals so far as the government of Nova Scotia is concerned. Well, I want to point out that there is on the statute books of Nova Scotia the best piece of legislation-in so far as arbitration between miners and operators is concerned- that could possibly exist. I believe, Mr. Speaker, that it excels, far excels, what is commonly called the Lemieux Act, or Conciliation Act, of the Dominion under which conciliation boards are held. I want to point out that this legislation is embodied

Nova Scotia Miners

in Chapter 21 of the Revised Statutes of Nova Scotia, 1900. Now, there is no appeal from an arbitration board instituted under Dominion legislation; there is no way of compelling either party to the negotiations to accept the recommendations of the conciliation board; there is no higher tribunal to which either party may appeal. May I point out that under the arbitration provided for between miners and employers in Nova Scotia, if those on either side do not agree with the finding of the arbitrators, they may appeal to the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia consisting of seven judges-who have always been, and I believe yet are, eminently fair men.

Mr. IRVINE:

What is the government of Nova Scotia doing in this matter? And is it the case that certain members of that government are shareholders in this particular corporation?

Mr. CARROLL:

Answering my hon.

friend's second question first, permit me to say that I do not know who the shareholders in the British Empire Steel Corporation are. However, I can take my hon. friend into my confidence and tell him that, happily, I am not one. In reply to his other question let me remind him that I have already stated what the Minister of Mines in Nova Scotia was willing to do if the miners would come to the conclusion that they would give a fair day's work for the wages which they were receiving. That communication was made to the miners through Mr. Baxter, President of the Union, at a mass meeting in Glace Bay on last Sunday evening, and was turned down by that meeting. In further answer to my hon. friend I may say that the government of Nova Scotia does not take the initiative under the provincial legislation to which I refer; the initiation must be taken either by the employees, that is, the miners, or the operators. They must make application to the Minister of Mines of the province, and if he is satisfied that they have established a good case he will grant a board. The men appoint two arbitrators and the operators appoint two and

as is usual in other arbitration cases-if they do not agree a judge of the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia appoints the fifth arbitrator. Whatever may be said of the present or past Ministers of Labour of Canada, whatever may be said as to the character and political affiliations of the men whom they have appointed as chairman of these conciliation boards- whose appointment is part of the minister's duty-surely little fault can be found

with a provision that a judge of the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia shall appoint the fifth arbitrator of a provincial board. And in that respect I say the act governing arbitration between miners and employees in the province of Nova Scotia is away ahead of the legislation which has been passed by this government in the Lemieux Act.

I am not going to criticise the leaders in Nova Scotia who think they are properly advising the men when they ask them to strike on the job. That is a matter for the executive of the United Mine Workers of Nova Scotia, and I suppose they know their business better than I do. But I think it passing strange that the executive of the United Mine Workers of the province of Nova Scotia have been so poorly advised by these legal lights who have been giving them legal advice in the past two years, that they have not yet been informed that there is such a magnificent piece of legislation upon the statute book of Nova Scotia to arbitrate and settle wage disputes. Neither am I here to say, Mr. Speaker, anything concerning the telegraphic communications between Mr. McLachlan, the Secretary-Treasurer of the United Mine Workers, and my hon. friend the Minister of Labour (Mr. Murdock). That is their business. But something should be done to attempt, at least to bring those people together again.

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

Hear, hear.

Mr. CARROLL:

I say that I believe

and I am not saying this on account of the fact that Mr. McLachlan and myself had some little controversies over politics in the last election-that Mr. McLachlan broke faith with the executive after he left Montreal, and he broke faith with the executive when he went down to Nova Scotia and did not assist them in putting through the agreement which was reached there. I believe that the miner, in common with every other class of labour in this country, is entitled to a fair and living wage. I think I can go so far as to say that there are some classes of labour in the province of New Brunswick, as in other parts of the Dominion of Canada, who are not paid a fair or living wage.

I did not know this discussion was coming up to-day. While my hon. friend from East Calgary was perfectly within his right in moving adjournment in order to discuss this matter, I am sorry he did not give notice of the discussion. He was perfectly in order in the course he has taken, and he did give notice to the Minister of

Nova Scotia Miners

Labour (Mr. Murdock). I regret that I did not have some time to prepare myself on the various phases on the findings of the conciliation hoard. As a matter of fact, I think the findings of the conciliation board were somewhat worse than described by the hon gentleman from East Calgary. Not only was there a cut of 221 per cent on the wages which certain men were receiving, but the 55 cents which was granted to those men by a previous board was taken off. It meant 22 per cent in some cases, plus 55 cents. In other cases it meant a 15 per cent cut plus 55 cents. Those getting $3.80 before, got more as a result of the findings of the arbitration board than did those who were getting $4. These were some of the little inconsistencies of findings of the board, and, perhaps that was the reason why the Dominion Coal Company went into further negotiations after that finding had been made.

I might tell the House, in reference to the question of loafing on the job-I forget the other word; oh, yes, sabotage-that that is where the war is on between the Dominion Coal Company and the men at the present time. The Dominion Coal Company tell the men: "You know what you are going down into the mine for. You know when you go into the mine you are going to receive $3.00 a day, and we want you to do a good day's work for that.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Will the hon. gentleman enlighten me on a certain point? I have been informed that the great body of the men, indeed all the coal miners, are what we always called piece-workers, who received so much a ton. Therefore, they only get as much pay as they earn, whether they follow the order of which he complains, or whether they do as they did before. Consequently, how does he describe that as "loafing on the job?"

Mr. CARROLL:

I think my right hon. friend is right. I think about 70 per cent of the employees are datal men at the present time. They receive so much a day. The remainder of the men get so much for the amount of coal taken out. Those are the men who work at the face of the mine. Hon. gentlemen who are familiar with mining know what that means. But the men who dig the coal and blow out the coal, are all paid by what they produce, and those are the men who are hurt by loafing on the job. They will not loaf on a job. It is in their interests to produce all the coal they can. The more coal they produce the more money will be in the envelope

on Saturday evening. But the men who take the coal from those producers, and get it to the top of the mine, are paid not less than $3 a day. It does not make a bit of difference whether they take out one ton or twenty tons, they get their $3. In that way the war is to this effect; that the men are trying to enhance the cost of production in order to bring the Dominion Coal Company to their knees and get better terms. As my right hon. friend says, the only men who suffer are those who produce the coal.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Are they not parties to the arrangement by which they produce only so much? And are not the other men reduced by the company to such numbers as will only take care of the production of piece-work men?

Mr. CARROLL:

I was coming to that. If a datal man refuses to carry the produce of the mines to the surface, he is immediately dismissed; and my latest advice from the mines last Tuesday was that 96 such men have already been dismissed from two mines of the Dominion Coal Company, who operate twenty-three or twenty-four mines in that area. Now, regarding watered stock, if what the hon. member for East Calgary (Mr. Irvine) has said is correct, it is a most unfortunate thing that a corporation operating a basic industry should secure an act of incorporation by which they could have $1,000,000 or $2,000,000, or, as my hon. friend has said, $19,000,000 of watered stock. I think the time has come when legislatures and the federal Parliament of Canada should say to such people: So far shall you go, but no further. I do not know how much watered stock the British Empire Steel Corporation has, but my hon. friend has stated that they have so many millions. A man does not need to be able to read or write to see that if there is $2,000,000 of watered stock in a company, when the accountant goes over the books to see how much they can pay their employees and get fair dividends for the money invested in the business, the men will have the worst of the bargain and will get lower wages than if the capital of the company consisted in actual dollars duly paid into the coffers of the corporation.

As regards the investigation into the affairs of this company, I fully agree with certain members of the Government, with whom I have discussed the matter, that if there is anything wrong in the company's organization, if it has any watered stock-

Nova Scotia Miners

I have no reference to their votes-it is the duty of the government of Nova Scotia, not of this Parliament, to investigate the matter. I do not think that the federal Parliament should investigate the affairs of a company incorporated under the laws of a province. I am reminded by my hon. friend from Hants (Mr. Martell) that it is not only the duty, but it would be to the material advantage of the province of Nova Scotia, to make every effort possible to bring about a settlement of this unfortunate difficulty. On every ton of coal produced by the Dominion Coal Company in Nova Scotia the local government receives a royalty of 121 cents, and if the output of coal falls off it is obvious that the revenue of the province must decline. And, while I in no way represent any member of the provincial government and do not speak for any member of the Provincial Assembly or the Legislative Council of Nova Scotia, I feel that if an application were made to the Government of the province, under the provisions of Chapter 21 of the Revised Statutes of Nova Scotia, 1900, and the men did their part while the negotiations were in progress, and stopped loafing, the government of the province would jump at the chance of giving them a board under that statute. I am saying this not so much in answer to my hon. friend, because I am not attempting to answer him, since I think he and I feel much the same way about the matter. But I am trying to show that the mine workers of Nova Scotia have not taken the opportunity of having their difficulties settled under the local statute and by a government which must of necessity be deeply concerned if the production of coal is curtailed. [DOT]

I am deeply interested in this dispute because of its public importance. It not only affects 12,000 coal miners in Nova Scotia, but, as well, every man and woman in the province living east of the county of Hants. In the county of Cape Breton, at Sydney, we have a great steel corporation which employs 8,000 or 10,000 men, and if the coal industry goes down the steel industry will naturally die, because there is an agreement between the Dominion Steel Company and the Dominion Coal Company whereby the former gets its coal for practically nothing. The dispute, therefore, not only affects the 12,000 miners to whom reference has been made, but it affects 9,000 steel workers in Sydney, 3,000 or 4,000 more steel workers at Sydney Mines, and 3,000 or 4,000 steel workers in

the county of Pictou. Furthermore, it affects the bread and butter of every man living in the vicinity of these large industrial concerns. For these reasons I believe that the government of Nova Scotia will do everything in its power, when the proper procedure is followed, to get the miners of Nova Scotia and the operators together to discuss the difficulty under the provisions of the Act I have cited. I know what I am talking about, because Mr. Armstrong sent to the president of the United Mine Workers a message which was delivered to the coal miners in the town of Glace Bay last Sunday evening, to the effect that if peace reigned for the time being he would institute a royal commission to investigate and re-canvass the whole coal mining situation in the province of Nova Scotia.

Mr. CRERAR:

My hon. friend says, "If peace reigns once more." I do not know just what he means by that.

Mr. CARROLL:

If peace should reign for the time being, I said. Mr. Armstrong sent a message to the president of the United Mine Workers asking them to proceed for the time being and get as much production as they could, and that he would then institute a royal commission. But I would say to the mining population of Nova Scotia that as a lawyer I would give them this advice: Do not ask the Government for a royal commission, because the findings of that commission, whether they are against you or are in your favour, cannot be enforced, and you have no appeal from them. Go to a board, the chairman of which is appointed by a judge of the Supreme Court of Nova Scotia, the findings of which, if against you, can be reviewed by five of the Supreme Court judges of the province. If that procedure is followed I believe that the miners will get a fair deal and that peace will reign once more in the mining areas.

I am deeply concerned from the personal standpoint in the early solution of this difficulty, because if the trouble continues it will mean that the large industrial centres which have grown up in the locality during the past twenty years, and of which we are all proud, will decline, and the population will ultimately have to get out. Further, it will mean that the provincial government will be unable to carry on its legitimate business because it will lose the royalties, amounting to millions of dollars, which are now being paid by the Dominion Coal Company and other corporations. It will

Nova Scotia Miners

also entail untold sorrow, trouble and suffering to the men and their families, and that to my mind is the most serious feature of the situation. I hope it is true that the delegation has been advised by the Government that no royal commission will be appointed at the present time. This morning I conferred with the four mayors -very estimable gentlemen-and I told them of the Arbitration Act, and I advised them to go back to Nova Scotia, and get the miners to instruct their lawyers to put that law into operation.

I am sorry, Mr. Speaker, for having taken up so much time, but this is a serious matter and must be settled without further delay. Whether it will be settled by the authorities of Nova Scotia or by the federal authorities, it must be settled, for we cannot afford to have a continuance of the situation which prevails in Nova Scotia at the present time. I am not going to say whose fault it is that the present conditions exist, I am not going to offer any criticism of the parties to the dispute. I am here simply to outline in a general way the causes and the results of that unfortunate misunderstanding between capital and labour, and to advise, if I may, those interested how, to my mind, the misunderstanding may be settled. Having done that, and having assisted the delegation in every possible way, I hope, Sir, that this House will at least feel that I have done my duty as I see it.

Hon. JAMES MURDOCK (Minister of Labour) :

Mr. Speaker, my hon. friend from East Calgary (Mr. Irvine) did not advise me-no doubt through an oversight -that he proposed to bring this matter up to-day. It is, however, only fair to say that a newspaper gentleman, a friend of mine, notified me at ten minutes past one. I am indeed glad that this question has been brought to the notice of the House, because I find that hon. gentlemen in this chamber and elsewhere appear to toe, and quite rightly, very much interested in this grave situation as it concerns the miners and other citizens of Nova Scotia.

The commencement of the dispute between the miners and the British Empire Steel Corporation and other employing coal companies was prior to the 29th December last when I became Minister of Labour.

My predecessor, Hon Mr. Robertson1- a gentleman for whom, by the way, I have always had and still have the greatest admiration and respect as a representative of labour and as an exponent, so far as

his understanding goes, of the proper aims, and ambitions, and contentions of labour, -took the initiative in dealing with the situation, as was quite proper that he should do. He had instituted a board of investigation under the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, and appointed to it Mayor Ling, of New Waterford, one of the delegation of Nova Scotia mayors now in Ottawa, to whom my hon. friend from East Calgary ha's referred. On the declination by the company to name a representative my predecessor also appointed a Mr. Thompson of Halifax. So I came into office as his successor to find the board formed thus far and waiting for the appointment of a chairman. It was my first appointment of a chairman of a board of investigation, and I have no regrets to express or apologies to offer for my choice of chairman. Indeed, if I had it to do again I would make the same choice.

In the light of certain suggestions that have been made during the past few days by the deputation from Nova Scotia and by certain hon. members, the belief might be indicated that the board should have been instructed to go on the ground and investigate at first hand all the facts and circumstances in connection with the everyday life of these miners, and of the organization of the British Empire Steel Cor. poration.

But the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act contemplates giving some latitude, to a reasonable board of investigation appointed to inquire into a matter of this kind. As I understand it, it has not been considered altogether proper for the Minister of Labour to suggest to any such board just how or in what manner or where they should conduct their investigation with a view to arriving at a proper decision. The board, as has been stated, was formed, and while it was in session I presumed to send to Nova Scotia a very capable officer of the department in order that he might go on the ground in the mining towns of Cape Breton and ascertain what the actual conditions were. At that particular time much publicity was given in the press to the statement that riots had broken out, that stores of the Dominion Coal Company had been robbed, and that, on the whole, a very serious situation had arisen. It was intimated that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police should be sent down there to assist in bringing order out of chaos. But so far as I was concerned I felt that nothing of the kind should be done, I did believe that as Minister of Labour I was entitled to

Nova Scotia Miners

have from a trusted employee of the department a first-hand statement as to the actual conditions prevailing in the mining villages of Nova Scotia. I am sorry to say that I must have been too presumptuous in sending a federal employee to that district and in that capacity, because when he got to Halifax he was given to understand, in substance, that he had better mind his own business and get back to Ottawa. I wired him, however, to proceed forthwith, and to furnish a report with regard to the conditions in the various mining towns.

The first result of the investigation was that Mayor Ling, one of the deputation of Nova Scotia mayors now in our city and representative of the miners on the board could not agree with the other two members, Mr. U. E. Gillen, of Toronto, chairman, and Mr. Thompson, representative of the British Empire Steel Corporation. It seemed to have been impossible to arrive at a unanimous understanding, consequently a majority and a minority award were filed with the department. The majority award was very voluminous indeed. It is about half an inch thick, comprising typewritten matter, and covers the entire situation as the chairman and the representative of the company saw it. The report of the majority was accepted by the General Manager of the British Empire Steel Corporation. The representatives of the employees declared that they would submit the matter to the men, which was very proper. I wish now to take you through a few of the stages in connection with the handling of the matter since that time, in order that you may see whether this Government; whether this department; whether this youthful, and, in a parliamentary way, inexperienced Minister of Labour,-

Hear, hear.