Mr. MURDOCK:

Admitted, before you

applauded. I want you to see whether we have stood ready, in season and out of season, day and night, to do anything constitutionally possible to secure for these men in Nova Scotia a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. I hope that no hon. member of this House, that no individual throughout the length and breadth of Canada, has any doubt as to where my sympathies are in the matter of securing for the labouring man a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. But I am not ready to concede now, nor shall I be in the months and years to come, that if-

Louder.

Mr. MURDOCK:

The Toronto Telegram, you know, said that the Murdock voice could reach to the farthest corner of any hall. I would not like to have anybody come to me after the House rises and intimate that he had been unable to hear me.

I am not ready to concede now, nor shall I be in the months and years to come, that the belief on the part of some employees or their representatives that a fair day's wage has not been given justifies their pretending to work for an employer at that particular wage while at the same time declaring to the world that they are going to cut the output and thus penalize the employer. I have never, in something like twenty-five or twenty-six years' experience as a labouring man and as a representative of labour, held that view, and I do not now, as Minister of Labour, intend to hold it or to follow any such policy.

Shortly after we were able to get the majority and minority awards in such shape that they could be given to the parties concerned, we received from Mr. Mc-Lacblan copy of a letter addressed to Mr. E. P. Merrill, general manager of the Dominion Coal Company, dated February 6, reading as follows:

This is to acknowledge receipt of your favour of the 4th inst., stating that your Company is prepared to accept the finding of the U. E. Gillen Conciliation Board with certain minor adjustments to preserve rate differentials not fully covered by the wording of the award.

Replying I wish to state that the question of accepting or rejecting the award shall be voted on by our people on the 10th instant. However, in order that they may know the attitude of your Company, I shall mail to-day to each local union a copy of your letter for their information. In the absence of the other members of the Executive Board and using my own best judgment I shall be unable to recommend to the local unions the acceptance of your offer as a settlement of this wage dispute.

I am,

Tours truly,

J. B. McLachlan.

As I see it, that letter is couched in absolutely proper and consistent language. I blame not at all Mr. McLachlan for coming out frankly, in man-fashion, and indicating to Mr. Merrill, the general manager, that he could not recommend the acceptance of the award to the miners. He had a perfect right to do that- Let us proceed to further developments.

Under date of February 17, Mr. McLachlan wrote another letter to Mr. E. P. Merrill as follows:

Replying further to your letter dated February 4, 1922, I wish to advise you that the members of [District No. 26, Ufriited Mine

Nova Scotia Miners

Workers of America voted on the award made by the Gillen Conciliation Board and the vote resulted as follows: for the Award, 468 ; against the Award, 10,305 ; all of which means that the proposition made in your letter of the 4th instant has been overwhelmingly rejected by the miners.

No doubt your Company must feel by this time that a great mistake was made in Montreal when your officers informed the representatives of the miners that the Company would now look after its own interest and refused to allow negotiations to proceed along the legitimate lines followed with fair success during recent wage contracts. The almost unanimous condemnation by the press, the pulpit and the public of the drastic action of your Company in slashing the miners' wages in the manner you did, and the complete alienation of the sympathies of some of your own most loyal officials must indicate that the day has gone forever when one-sided wage bargains can be made effective.

When men have made such mistakes as your Company has made, mistakes which have brought down on their heads wholesale condemnation, there is only one thing left open for them to do, pocket their pride, and retrace the fatal steps at the first opportunity and remove the cause of the condemnation.

The miners are having a convention in Truro on the 23rd instant, and I would suggest that the coal companies comprised in the British Empire Steel Corporation send representatives there for the purpose of negotiating a new wage agreement. Until a wage agreement is arrived at mutually I cannot see where your Company can reasonably hope to have any stability -in the coal industry of Nova Scotia.

Trusting that your representatives can be present at Truro on the 23rd instant, I am, Yours truly,

J. B. McLachlan,

Secretary, District No. 22, U.M.W. of A.

Once more I express the view that there is nothing wrong whatsoever in the statements made by Mr. McLachlan in that letter. Had I been in his position under the existing circumstances, I might have written more insistently even than he did.

Then, under date of February 22, the Minister of Labour, new on the job, was interested in trying to see if something could not be done, and so he wired Mr. J. B. McLachlan, who was to be at Truro with the other representatives of District No- 26 the following day, as follows:

Your letter seventeenth enclosing copy of communication same date forwarded to General Manager Dominion Coal Company not received until to-day. Terms of same noted, also fact that miners are holding convention at Truro, Thursday, twenty-third, and have invited British Empire Steel Corporation to send representatives for purpose of negotiating new wage agreement. Minister will be pleased to have word from you at your earliest convenience as to outcome of any efforts in direction indicated.

To that the reply was as follows, under date of February 23:

Telegram received. No coal operators present here. Wo'uld be pleased to have Department use good offices looking towards settlements. Convention may continue until Saturday.

At once I instructed the deputy minister to send the following telegram, dated February 23:

D. H. McDougall, Vice President, British Empire Steel Corporation, Montreal.

Minister asks me to bring to your attention communications exchanged between J. B. McLachlan, Secretary District 26 United Mine Workers of America, Glace Bay, and the undersigned. Mr. McLachlan forwarded under date 17th instant copy of letter mailed same date to Mr. E. P. Merrill, General Manager Dominion Coal Company, Sydney, N. S., notifying Mr. Merrill that miners were having convention in Truro on 23rd instant and suggested that "coal companies comprising the British Empire Steel Corporation send representatives there for the purpose of negotiating a new wage agreement.'' On receipt yesterday of Mr. McLachlan's letter following wire was by Minister's instructions addressed by undersigned to Mr. McLachlan: "Your letter seventeenth enclosing copy of communication same date forwarded to General Manager, Dominion Coal, not received until to-day. Terms of same noted, also fact that miners are holding convention at Truro, Thursday, twenty-third, and have invited British Empire Steel Coroporation to send representatives for purpose of negotiating new wage agreement.

"Minister will be pleased to have word from you at your earliest convenience as to outcome of any efforts in direction indicated."

To-day undersigned is in receipt of message from McLachlan as follows:

"Telegram received. No coal operators present here. Would be pleased to have Department use good offices looking towards settlement. Convention may continue until Saturday." Minister observes Mr. McLachlan's statement that, "no coal operators present here" and asks if you do not think would be desirable Company should take steps immediately to be represented at miners' convention, accepting workmen's invitation, and thus doing its part in endeavouring to negotiate a wage settlement. Minister will be pleased to have word from you.

To that Mr. D. H. McDougall replied by wire as follows:

Montreal, February 25, 1922. In reply to your telegram yesterday would state we mailed Department 10th instant copy of our letter fourth offering to negotiate contract with our mine workers on basis Award of Gillen Conciliation Board appointed by Minister at request of mine workers, and also copy of J. B. McLachlan's reply. This reply, together with McLachlan's letter to our General Manager Merrill, under date seventeenth, inviting us to send representatives to mine workers' convention at Truro (being a further reply to our letter fourth) we regard as being merely expression McLachlan's personal opinions and not as authorized official communications from District 26. .

Said communications have been written by McLachlan in absence of President Baxter and other responsible executive officials in attendance on Indianapolis convention.

Nova Scotia Miners

Truro convention is being held for purpose of considering offer made in our letter of fourth, and we understand is confined to officials and delegates of union. We anticipate that when matter has been discussed in convention a further official communication may be addressed to ug outlining the attitude the executive officials of the union are empowered to take in regard to further negotiations with the coal companies.

In the meantime, as notified you by letter from our general manager under date twenty-first instant, we have put into effect the Gillen award with some necessary adjustments that have substantially modified the award in favour of the mine workers and are making retroactive payment to January first of difference in rates of wages betwen our schedule of January first, and the schedule as modified by Gillen award.

D. H. McDougall.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I want to deal with some of the later phases of this condition. On the same date, February 25, we received a telegram from Mr. E. H. Armstrong, Minister of Public Works and Mines of Nova Scotia, as follows:

Personal. Truro convention to consider action miners re Gillen award. Requested further conference with officials Besco Monday next but am advised no answer. Have just wired McDougall and Wolvin urging favourable and prompt consideration. Believe under all circumstances this course advisable and will bring about more satisfactory solution. Appreciate any co-operation you can reasonably suggest.

E. H. Armstrong.

Minister of Public Works and Mines.

At once we took the matter up with a view to getting a representative of the Labour Department to see if a further conference could not be brought about. The later developments were that the representatives of the miners came from Truro to Montreal to meet the officials of the British Empire Steel Corporation, and I want to read to you a report made to the Deputy Minister of Labour by the gentleman representing the Labour Department who was present at that meeting. It is as follows: Montreal, March 2, 1922.

F. A. Acland, Esq.,

Deputy Minister of Labour,

Ottawa.

Dear Mr. Acland,-I enclose for record, text of the agreement reached between the United Mine Workers of Nova Scotia, through Robert Baxter, president, and committee, and the British Empire Steel Corporation and constituent companies, represented by Mr. D. H. McDougall.

The agreement was negotiated in Montreal by a conference extending over a period of three days, i.e., Feb. 27th and 28th, and March 1st.

The department representative, E. McG. Quirk, was present at the conferences and assisted in an intermediary capacity.

Mr. J. P. White, of the International, was present in an advisory capacity, rendering very material assistance.

The sense of the agreement will be submitted to the lgcals for ratification. When ratified the

company will be prepared to resume operations on an increased scale.

Yours truly,

E. McG. Quirk.

The text of the agreement which is referred to in that communication is as follows:

Montreal, 1st March, 1922. The members of district executive board of District 26, U.M.W. of A., having been authorized by a district conference held in Truro, February 23 to 25 to interview the management of the British Empire Steel Corporation and ascertain the best terms the management could offer as a basis for a settlement of the outstanding wage questions, the following was finally mutually agreed to:

First.-The management has already accepted and put into effect-

Mr. CRERAR:

Do I understand that

Mr. McLachlan was present at this conference in Montreal?

Mr. MURDOCK:

Yes.

Mr. CRERAR:

And did he concur in

the agreement you are about to read?

Mr. MURDOCK:

I may say to my hon. friend from Marquette that the agreement is signed, on behalf of District No. 26 by Robert Baxter, who, I understand, is president. My understanding further is that Mr. McLachlan and other members of the executive committee were present, and I think that point will be proven a little later. To continue with the reading of the agreement :

-the rates recommended under the Gillen award, and, in addition thereto, has voluntarily made an adjustment of the datal rates between the minimum rate of $2.85 per day and certain other slightly higher rates, and agrees to increase the minimum datal rate to $3 per day.

2. The companies will not object to inclusion in this wage agreement of employees in the general machine shops and shot-firers employed at the collieries.

A committee equally composed of representatives of the coal companies and the men to decide on what others of the employees, excluded on January 1st, should be included in the scope of the agreement.

3. The conditions of the Montreal agreement to remain in force in all particulars except as regards the rates of wages and as herein modified.

The terms above written to become effective between the 1st January, 1922, and 30 th November, 1922, when ratified by members of District 26, both sides to agree to meet twenty days before the expiration of the agreement, for the purpose of arranging a new understanding.

On behalf of District No. 26, U.M.W. of America,

Robert Baxter.

Dominion Coal Company, Limited,

R. M. Wolvin, President.

Nova Scotia Steel & Coal Company. Limited, D. H. McDougall, President.

Acadia Coal Company, Limited,

D. H. McDougall, Vice-President. Dated at Montreal, 1st March, 1922.

Nova Scotia Miners

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

I do not know what the fact is, but one would rather gather that the men's representatives at that meeting numbered seven and that four of them were in favour of the offer which the minister has read, but that three, including Mr. McLachlan, were against it.

Mr. MURDOCK:

My understanding is that at that particular meeting there were not seven; I think only three or four of the district officers came up for the purposes of this meeting, although my hon. friend is probably correct in understanding that there are eight officers of the district committee. Recently these eight officers took official action in connection with Mr. McLachlan's proposal to cut the output or *"loaf on the job," the result being that three of the committee went with Mr. McLachlan and three against him. The papers indicate that some of them have since resigned. Mr. Baxter, who occupied the chair as president, did not vote. We can therefore reasonably and properly assume that the mine workers' executive committee of eight was evenly divided, four against four, on the propositfon to cut the output or "loaf on the job." It seems that the agreement, which was tenatively entered into at Montreal as between representatives of the miners and representatives of the coal companies, was carried back to secure the votes of the individual miners, as to acceptance or rejection. I find no fault with the manner in which certain organizations or committees representing workmen undertake to deal with such questions, but, fortunately or unfortunately, my experience has been, in the representation of labour, that when an agreement was entered into and determined upon as satisfactory by the representatives of workmen, it should not be held as a football, to be kicked here and there, and decided out in the open by various individuals, even although some of my good friends and others will tell you they had a perfect right to do that. The point is that here was an agreement which, on the first day of March, in the city of Montreal, in the opinion of those directly representing the Miners' Association, was something better than had been conceded by the Gillen award, and something that could reasonably offer a basis of settlement. You and I know that, when that committee representing the workers went back to the miners of Nova Scotia, they were divided in their recommendations to these workmen and their families as to whether that

award should be accepted or not. I am not criticizing that, but I regard it as indeed a distinct misfortune that it should have been found possible and consistent to make an agreement in Montreal on the first day of March that could not have been made by the board of arbitration sitting in Halifax some two weeks earlier. I do not know why it was that the direct representatives of these coal companies met in Montreal on the first day of March and offered more favourable conditions, some slight increases in compensation over and above what, evidently, their representatives on the board of investigation had been prepared and disposed to give when the matter was being dealt with in Halifax. It is one of the unfortunate circumstances in connection with this situation that it was possible to do that, and it is one of the phases of the situation that has given much ground and opportunity for alleging that boards of investigation, under the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act, are weak and useless in dealing with matters of thi3 kind. It is a misfortune it was done at that particular time. I would like to deal with a few of the references

5 p.m. made by my hon. friend from East Calgary (Mr. Irvine) in regard to this situation. In his opening remarks as I understood him, he told this House-and I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong-that the wages of the miners of Nova Scotia were 70 per cent lower than the wages for similar work in the mines of British Columbia and Alberta.

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

Seventeen per cent, I think.

Mr. MURDOCK:

I understood 70 per cent.

Mr. IRVINE:

It was 71.

Mr. MURDOCK:

We were both wrong.

Mr. IRVINE:

I said the cost of living was 17 per cent higher in Nova Scotia, and the wages 71 per cent lower.

Mr. MURDOCK:

I am obliged for the correction. I am quite sure that the hon. gentleman had not the slightest intention of presenting an inaccurate conception of facts to this House, but what are the facts? As my hon. friend from East Calgary know, the facts in regard to the mines in District 18, British Columbia and Alberta, are that notification has been given by the operators in that territory

Nova Scotia Miners

that wages will be brought down very materially, effective on Saturday morning next, April 1. So that my hon. friend's statement, which would indicate that the wages of miners in Alberta and British Columbia are 71 per cent higher than in Nova Scotia, is far-fetched indeed. I am sure he will concede that as a matter of fact.

Mr. IRVINE:

Can the hon. minister tell me if the proposed reduction in wages has been accepted by the miners of Alberta?

Mr. MURDOCK:

The answer to my hon. friend's question is, no, but according to the proposals of the operators in District 18, effective on Saturady morning next, wage cuts of materially lower standards than those that, have, under war time and post-war conditions existed in that territory are, it is said, to go into effect. What is the comparison of those wages that have been posted as going into effect on Saturday morning with the wages we are discussing for datal men in Nova Scotia? In British Columbia and Alberta the wage for datal men is proposed at $3.25 for the lower standards of pay, as against the wage rate agreed to in Montreal on March 1, between the representatives of United Mine Workers and the officials of Nova Scotia companies. I do not hold for one moment that $3 or $3.25 is a living wage under certain conditions, and do not let any hon. gentleman in this House, or any gentleman outside of this House, understand that I am contending anything of the kind. I take the position that it is hardly fair for us to undertake to influence hon. gentlemen in this House, or the public at large, and to create the belief that there is such a wide margin of difference as between Nova Scotia and Alberta and British Columbia.

Mr. IRVINE:

Is it not perfectly fair for us to take into consideration in this comparison the actual wages that are being paid now in Nova Scotia with the actual wages that are being paid in Alberta? If that is not the proper way to consider it, what other method can we adopt?

Mr. MURDOCK:

I will leave the question of the equity or the fairness of that method of presenting the question to be determined in the minds of hon. members of this House. The hon. gentleman from Calgary, as he spoke for to-day and tomorrow, was substantially, and, so far as I know, absolutely correct in his comparison of percentages as to wages. He may

have been entirely correct for to-day and to-morrow, but I hope it will not be regarded as altogether improper for me to present, at least, the other point of view. Then my hon. friend from Calgary (Mr. Irvine) laid stress upon the minority report which was filed in this investigation held in Halifax. Personally I should have been happy indeed had it been possible, and consistent with due regard to the rights of employer, employed and, above all, the general public, to have suggested that the minority report as handed in to the department on this question by Mayor Ling, of New Waterford, should be adopted. But my hon. friend surely knows that the only authority that this Government has in dealing with such matters is to be found in the Industrial Disputes Investigation Act. We had no option then, and surely have no option now, being bound by that law, to compel the findings of one man directly representing the employees to be made effective. And then my hon. friend said, if I quote his exact words, as I think I do: "The men naturally struck on the job." In all reverence I say, Heaven forbid that the time should ever come when it should be regarded as necessary by labouring men, accepting a wage of any kind, to strike on a job. Again I repeat, red-blooded Canadian citizens will never do any such thing; and anyone who undertakes to countenance any such suggestion is only looking to the ruin of the constitutional rights and liberties of the citizenship of this country. I myself regard it as a misfortune that anyone should stand in the councils of the nation, and, even by inference or suggestion, convey the view that there is anything fair, honourable or decent in striking on the job. One of the greatest misfortunes that have existed in years gone by, and one that is with us at this moment in Canada, is the theorist who has cures for all the ills of labour, some of .which contemplate being as indecent and unfair as may be necessary to win your point with the employer, while at the same time accepting the full demonstration of charity and decent treatment for yourself. Forget it, I say, to the labouring man or his representative who advocates such a policy. Even if any such policy might be desired by this Government or by the people of the country, I have more respect for my own conscience than to participate, even as a Minister of the Crown, in promulgating, or forwarding, or countenancing any such claim on the part of Labour directly or through anybody pre-

Nova Scotia Miners

suming' to represent Labour. Labour has got to be fair and decent, and in case someone might form an improper opinion on the matter, let me say this: In the sixteen years or so that I was an officer of a labour organization, I personally gave sanction to more strikes than any other officer the organization had, and I have no apologies to offer for having done so; nor should I lose my nerve, either, if I were back at the job. But I believe there is decency and equity in all things; and it was not, nor is it now, decent for us to 'be dallying with the 'suggestion that the men "naturally struck on the job," while accepting, or pretending to work for, a wage rate, be it ever so small. I do not argue that it is sufficient. Personally, I regard it as a misfortune indeed that the British Empire Steel Corporation, out of the sum of $3,000,000 paid to them from the demobilization funds, by the party in power on the 25th of November last, could not have utilized a portion and given a little more decent consideration to these mine workers in Nova Scotia. But they have not done so. I assume that that $3,000,000 has gone to do what my hon. friend1 from Cape Breton (Mr. Carroll) so well suggested, namely, to pay dividends on watered stock. I do not subscribe to any such thing, and so long as I may remain a member of this House or of the Government, my voice will be lifted and my effort directed against the continuation of such practices.

My hon. friend from Calgary (Mr. Irvine) suggested to this House the name of a gentleman of Montreal, a Mr. Howard Ross, as eminently qualified to investigate this whole matter. It is rather peculiar that the gentleman who called me by telephone to advise me that this matter was coming up this afternoon also suggested the name of Mr. Howard Ross. I have not the honour of the acquaintance of Mr. Ross; he may be of the highest standing and the most responsible character in Canada; but, as a general proposition, I am not disposed, as Minister of Labour, to accept such recommendations coming in such a manner, because I have found by some experience that sometimes those who are sympathetic to labour make recommendations which are really favourable and consistent only from their own point of view. The representations made on behalf of Mr. Howard Ross, whoever the gentleman is, would unfortunately have made me suspicious of considering his appointment as possibly biased toward one side unduly, if

anything of the kind had been contemplated.

My hon. friend referred to something about a fair day's work for a day's pay. I think that that is the entire question. It is true that a deputation from Nova Scotia mining towns came to this city and made representations to my honoured leader and other members of the Cabinet that a royal commission should be appointed. But I do not think that I am giving away any secrets when I say that those gentlemen, individually and collectively, advised us that they were speaking only for the citizens of their respective towns, who were not actually employed as miners, and

that they could give no guarantee that even if a royal commission were appointed it would be accepted. Is that a fair view of the entire situation? In other words-and I do not want in any way to disparage the position of my hon. friend from East Calgary or those for whom he is speaking-is it fair for us to have suggested to us the appointment of a royal commission especially for the other citizens in these mining villages in face of the frank statement that maybe after the royal commission had thoroughly investigated the situation and made its recommendations the miners might not accept them? No, no, surely nothing so onesided as that could be thought of for a minute.

My hon. friend from Cape Breton South (Mr. Carroll) referred to the opportunities for these miners to get the necessary cooperation and, I hope, some assistance from the provincial authorities if the proper steps were taken. Last night there was given to the press a statement of the position of the Government,-not a statement of the position of the Minister of Labour, please, although I whole-heartedly subscribe to every statement contained herein. For the sake of accuracy I want to include this statement in Hansard. It is as follows:

Ottawa, March 29th, 1922.

Yesterday a deputation, consisting1 of D. W. Morrison, Mayor of Glace Bay, J. M. McLean, Mayor of Dominion, N. S., James Ling, Mayor of New Waterford, N. S., and Mayor Wilson of Spring Hill, Cumberland County, N. S., accompanied by Messrs. Carroll, Macdonald, Kyte, Chisholm and Logan, Members of Parliament for the various coal-mining constituencies of Nova Scotia, waited upon the Prime Minister, who was accompanied by the Hon. W. S. Fielding, Hon D. D. McKenzie and Hon. James Murdock. The deputation placed before the Government a memorial dealing with the alleged very serious situation existing in the coal mining industry in Nova Scotia,

Nova Scotia Miners

and suggested the appointment of a Royal Commission to go on the ground and thoroughly Investigate the entire question affecting the coal mining industry and the alleged attitude of the British Empire Steel Corporation in dealing with its employees.

Careful consideration was promised and given to the representations made by the deputation who were advised that the decision of the Government would be stated as early as possible. .

Under all circumstances the Government has deemed it inadvisable to appoint a Royal Commission. It should be understood that in its decision the Government has been influenced by the attitude of Mr. McLachlan, Secretary of the United Mine Workers of America, who has indicated his intent to insist on the employees in the coal-mining industry cutting the output and doing as little work as possible for the wages being paid. To grant a commission in view of the declarations and attitude of Mr. McLachlan would in the opinion of the Government be placing a premium on the advocacy of the methods most prejudicial to the public interest and unfair as respects relations between employer and employees. Press reports also indicate that the miners have repudiated advice as to reasonable and consistent loyalty to the employer from other representatives of the employees and have proposed that Mr. McLachlan should be regarded as the dictator of the miners' policy, which policy as outlined by Mr. McLachlan cannot in any measure be countenanced by the Government. The Government regrets exceedingly the alleged existing conditions in Nova Scotia, but cannot be a party to countenancing the position taken by Mr. McLachlan and others who are following his instructions.

As I said before, Mr. Speaker, I wholeheartedly agree with every word contained in this statment. I think that labour, both in Nova Scotia and elsewhere, would be well advised to follow the principle, not merely to-day but all the time, of giving a fair day's work ungrudgingly for the wage accepted or that it is pretended to work for. I will countenance no other principle on the part of labour so-called so far as my responsibility or authority goes.

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

Will the hon. Minister permit me a question? Apparently, according to the press reports, the information of the Government was that a number of the regular officers of the men had resigned. I should like to find out from my hon. friend what officers resigned and to whom they handed their resignations, so that we might have some idea of how the matter now stands.