Mr. W. F. KAY (Missisquoi) presented the second report of the Select Standing Committee on Agriculture and Colonization, as follows: That without delaying investigation by this committee as to the advisability of the reestablishment of the Canada Wheat Board, the matter of the constitutionality of such re-establishment be referred to the Supreme Court of Canada and that every effort be made to secure decision at an early date. Also the third report of said committee, reading as follows: That the reference to the committee of the memorandum of Council of Agriculture be enlarged, and that the committee be instructed to consider also the suggestion of a "Voluntary Pool" under control of the Government and working in conjunction with the elevator system now owned by the Government, and also the proposal of marketing of the wheat crop by the co-operative system, and to report to the House its finding.
Hon. GEORGE P. GRAHAM (Minister of Militia and Defence) moved that the House go into Committee to consider the following proposed resolution: 1. That it is expedient to bring in a measure to create a department of the Government of
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Canada to be called the Department of National Defence, over which a Minister of the Crown shall preside vh o shall be the Minister of National Defence. 2. That the minister shall be charged with all matters relating to Defence, including the Militia, the Military, Naval, Air and Police Services of Canada. 3. That there shall be a Deputy Minister of National Defence who shall be appointed by the Governor in Council, and hold office during pleasure, and such officers may be appointed as are necessary for the carrying on of the business of the department. 4. That the Governor in Council on the recommendation of the Minister may appoint an officer who shall, in relation to the Naval Service exercise all the powers and duties vested in the Deputy Minister of the Naval Service by or under The Naval Service Act, and who shall have the rank and salary of a deputy head of a department, and shall be a member of the Defence Council. 5. That the Governor in Council on the recommendation of the minister may appoint an officer to be known as Comptroller, who under the Deputy Minister of National Defence, shall be charged with all financial matters pertaining to the Department of National Defence. 6. That any person whose position is abolished on the coming into force of the Act to be based upon these resolutions may, on the recommendation of the minister, be appointed by the Governor in Council to such position in the department and with such rank, title and salary as shall be prescribed. 7. That if any person is removed from office or an appointment in consequence of the abolition of his office or his appointment by the Act based upon these resolutions or by any order or regulation thereunder, or is retired *within two years after the coming into force of the said Act, the Governor in Council may grant him a gratuity, retiring or superannuation allowance, or pension not exceeding such as he would have been entitled or eligible to receive if he had been retired under the provisions of any Act applicable to him, after adding from one to three years, as the Governor in Council may deem advisable, to his actual term of service. 8. That provision be made to vest the powers, duties and functions vested in the ministers and deputy ministers under the various Acts relating to the Naval Service, the Militia, Militia Pensions, the Royal Military College, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police and the Dominion Police, in the Minister of National Defence and the Deputy Minister of National Defence respectively :-Provided that the powers vested in the Deputy Minister of the Naval Service under the Naval Service Act shall be exercised by the officer appointed for that purpose as aforesaid. 9. That provision be made to constitute a Defence Council to advise the minister on all matters of defence, including or relating to the Militia, the Military, Naval, Air and Police [Services of Canada, and on all matters referred to it by the minister, and to perform such other duties as may be prescribed by the Governor in Council. He said: Although the statement appears in Hansard that His Excellency the Governor General has been apprised of the subject matter of this resolution and com- mends it to the consideration of the House, it does not appear in the Votes and Proceedings. Motion agreed to, and the House went into Committee thereon, Mr. Gordon in the chair.
Mr. GUTHRIE:
I think a few words of explanation from the minister would not be out of place at the present time with regard to this important resolution.
Mr. GRAHAM:
I proposed to make a statement on moving the second reading of the bill.
Mr. McMASTER:
We cannot hear at this end of the Chamber.
Mr. GRAHAM:
It is the first time I was ever accused of speaking in too low a tone. I am quite willing to make a short explanation now as to the object of this resolution; but I shall reserve the further and more detailed statement until the motion for the second reading of the bill.
As hon. members know, announcement was made some weeks ago that it was the intention of the Government to bring under one ministerial head what might properly be termed the defence forces of Canada. There are four branches,-the Militia, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Naval Service and the Air Service. The object of the present resolution, and of the bill to be founded on it, is to bring these branches under one ministerial head, in the hope of thereby promoting efficiency and economy. It is a fair question to ask: In what direction does the Government expect to promote economy? I will just mention one phase of the matter which I think will appeal to every member of the House. In all these branches there are quite a large number of temporary employees. Now the word "temporary" used in this connection has not the significance we usually apply to the term. A clerk in one of these departments, or in any other department, may be properly termed temporary though he or she may have been in such department for years. The fact may be that they have failed to pass the necessary examination entitling them to become permanent employees, or even some may have passed such examination and still not have been made permanent under the act. Now, in the departments referred to there are a large number of temporary employees, and the Government hope that by the amalgamation of the different branches in question the services can be approximately carried on by the permanent staff. If our hope in that direction be realized, I think there
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would be a saving on this account alone of between seven hundred thousand and a million dollars per annum. Then there are other directions, I think, in which economy can be promoted; for example in the amalgamation of the various executive forces of these different branches, those engaged in buying and selling-what we call the purchasing departments-and other services of this nature. By amalgamation it is hoped that we can do the business just as well, or perhaps a little better, with a smaller staff. There is a question involved in the uniting of these branches that is a difficult one to solve. Hon. members who have been ministerial heads of departments will perhaps appreciate the fact more thoroughly than those who have not held such a trying position. There are not a few semi-heads of branches, including men quite prominent in the land, splendid men, whom it will be perhaps a little difficult to establish under the new organization; but I am taking the House into my confidence when I say that I will endeavour, as far as possible, to see that in the carrying out of the new organization no injustice will be done to these men who have given years of service to the public. I do not know that it would be wise, or even necessary, at this stage to enter upon a consideration of the details of what is proposed. I think it would be more satisfactory to do that when the bill has been printed and placed in its entirety in the hands of hon. members.
Mr. MACLEAN (York) :
Has the Minister made provision for these changes in the Estimates that are before the House?
Mr. GRAHAM:
It will take months to bring about this organization; and I may say that discussing it with a gentleman, not in the employ of the Government but one who has had experience in several departments, he assured me that if it were accomplished in one year it would be good work. But the Estimates had to be prepared for the fiscal year, and we have just entered upon a new fiscal period. It has not been possible to adopt any other method in this respect than that which we have followed.
Mr. GUTHRIE:
I think the committee will agree that the resolution forecasts a bill which, in general, will be to the advantage of Canada; and while we cannot give to the present minister the credit for originating the idea still, I think, we may accord him full credit as the first Minister of Militia in Canada who has brought forth
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a concrete scheme, or proposal, for accomplishing the purpose. So far back as the year 1909 or 1910, the older members of the House will recollect, Sir Frederick Borden, then Minister of Militia and Defence in the Liberal Administration of that day, considered it would be desirable to bring together the Naval and Military services. It was at the time of the discussion in this House of the act known as the Naval Service Act of Canada, but there were difficulties in carrying out the proposal at that time and there have been difficulties since.
Mr. GRAHAM:
And there are difficulties now.
Mr. GUTHRIE:
In fact it has been said that the only time properly to consolidate several departments of government into one is at the beginning of a new parliament and upon the formation of a new ministry. The Naval Service section of the defence forces of Canada has heretofore always been under the Minister of Marine and Fisheries who was known also as Minister of the Naval Service. The Mounted Police were, for many years, under the jurisdiction of the President of the Council. The force is still under the President of the Privy Council, but under the late administration the holder of that portfolio was, for a time, also Minister of Immigration and Colonization. The Air Board was, I think, at its inception attached to the Department of the Secretary of State. Shortly afterwards it was transferred to the Department of Militia and Defence, but only in so far as the minister himself was named as the chairman of the board; the board did not function under the Department of Militia and Defence save in regard to the chairmanship of the Minister of Militia. In a scheme advanced by Sir Frederick Borden, and in another scheme suggested to Parliament in a report by Lord French-made, I think, in the year 1910 or 1911-the suggestion was advanced that all the military and naval forces of Canada should be brought under one department. Speaking subject to correction let me say that neither in Sir Frederick Borden's suggestion nor in Lord French's report was it proposed that the Mounted Police of Canada should be made part of the Department of National Defence. Then at a later stage, following the late war, General Sir Arthur Currie, while chief of staff in the Department of Militia, made a report and I had the pleasure and honour of discussing that report with him. It will be found, I think, in the militia report of
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1920. In his report Sir Arthur Currie recommended that the military force, the naval force and the air force should be brought under one department, and also that there should be a committee of national defence in the government, but he, I think, likewise excluded the Royal Northwest Mounted Police.
We have, however, waited until the present time before taking action in regard to the matter. The proposal of the minister is to take all of our defence forces and all of our police forces not strictly of a military or naval nature and place them under one central control and in a single department of government, and by so doing the minister says-and I think be has reasonable ground for the statement-that he will to some extent reduce the expenditure in regard to national defence. I assume that that will he one of the results of the proposed action of the minister. I, for one, am very much gratified that he is taking this stand in regard to national defence. From statements made in this House last session and the session before, and from speeches made during the recent election, I feared very much that the present Government upon attaining power would not do anything in regard to national defence at all. I felt gratified when I looked over the Estimates and found that the proposals for expenditures on national defence this year were practically about what they were the year before and the year before that. It was a matter of gratification for me to see that the proposed expenditure this year in the Department of Militia is just about ten million six or seven hundred thousand dollars and I think I am within the mark when I say that all we spent in the Department of Militia last year just closed was ten million two hundred thousand or two hundred and fifty thousand or about half a million less than the proposed expenditure for this year. I feared from what I had read and heard in this House that a severe assault was to fbe made upon the militia system of Canada and I am greatly gratified to find that that is not the case but that substantially the Government proposes to maintain in this country what we have maintained from Confederation down to the present time. I believe it will be in the general interests of the service and of the Dominion to bring the various defence forces together as the minister proposes, but I am going to reserve, durihg the present discussion, from expressing any opinion in regard to the proposal to
bring the Mounted Police into the Department of National Defence, as part of the defence forces of Canada. No one knows better than my hon. friend the minister (Mr. Graham) and the Government of which he is a member, that the Royal Canadian Mounted Police was originally established upon the distinct understanding that it was not to be a military but essentially a civil force. While it is true that it has always been drilled and organized upon military lines, its duties and functions have always been distinctly civil, as apart from military. The late Sir Frederick Borden did not suggest taking it in, neither did Lord FrenCh nor Sir Arthur Currie, and the ground of .their refusal to suggest its being taken in was that it might be continued as a purely civil force. I do not think I am going beyond the facts when I say that the chief benefit derived in the Dominion of Canada from the Northwest Mounted Police has been in regard to civil work. It has been of tremendous advantage to this country that we have had such a force. It has been engaged in the investigation of crime, the preservation of law and order, just as an ordinary municipal police force would be, and if you now turn that purely civil into part of your military establishment or part of your national defence, you will rob that exceptional force of the distinctly civil character which it has enjoyed heretofore, and by reason of which it has been so useful from its inception to the present time.
Also, I point out to the committee at this stage that the present resolution forecasts a bill, and the bill will be brought in, in due course. The resolution and the bill, 1 am satisfied, are mere skeletons, they merely state that a department of national defence shall he established, but the whole machinery for the establishment and carrying on of that department is left to the Governor in Council. It is rather strange that in a short resolution such as the present one we find that in no less than six different instances the Government proposes to carry out this scheme by Order in Council. This intention on the part of the Government is even more marked in the bill than in the resolution. The Government boldly proposes to reserve to itself the right to deal with this new department, to carry on the great matter of national defence, by Order in Council. If the com-nittee will stop to count the references in this short resolution, they will find that the Order in Council method of dealing
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with the matter is adopted in no less than six instances, and it occurs more frequently in the bill than it does in the resolution. Eor any one who sat in this Parliament during the last three sessions, and heard the members of the present Government, then in opposition, condemning in the strongest language, in season and out of season, what they called "government by order in council," it is a strange thing that the first piece of real legislation which they have to present to the House this session is merely a skeleton, and that the present Government, which formed the Opposition during the last three years, now deliberately proposes to carry out this measure under the powers which can be exercised by the Governor in Council.
I was glad to hear the minister state that it was his intention, as far as possible, to take care of the experienced members of his staff although it is quite possible that he may not require the services of them all. I think it is worth the time of the committee to give some consideration to that question. We have to-day in the Militia Department-and I can say this without any qualification-the most highly-trained men and the most thoroughly experienced military staff that we have ever had in the history of the Dominion. That is, of course, by reason of the fact that the men who are now in the commanding positions in that department were men who served with the Canadian forces throughout the great war. We have now in that department, or had until very recently, as Inspector-General, Major General Sir Henry Burstall, one of the ablest officers that the Dominion of Canada has yet produced. We have as Chief of General Staff, Major'General MacBrien, as Master of Ordnance, Major General Sir Edward Morrison, as Adjutant General, Major General Elmsley, and as Quarter-master, Major General Ashton, a group of men, who, as field commanders in time of trouble, or as advisers and adminstrators in time of peace, it would be hard to surpass. These officers are all highly experienced staff officers whose places could not be easily filled in this country. Most of the men have been trained, to some extent, at the expense of the Dominion of Canada. Three, at least, of them have been sent by and at the expense of this country to the staff college in Great Britain, and they have taken brilliant courses there. They have been equipped, at the expense and for the benefit of Canada, with the
highest kind of military training, and they are all yet within military age. I believe, if this bill goes through and this reorganization takes place, some of these men will have to leave the service to seek other walks of life, and I believe it is proposed to promote some juniors in the service to their positions. Is it in the interest of Canada to have specially trained officers, to spend our money to send these men to the staff college in England, and then to cast them adrift rather than to continue to utilize their services? It is of the highest importance that such men, as those whom I have enumerated, should be retained in the Militia of Canada and that their services should not be dispensed with. If it be wrong to train men and to send them to the staff college in England, let us stop doing so now; but let us have the services of those men who have heretofore been trained, not only in the staff college, but in the long and hard school in which they served during the years of the Great War.
In connection with the retirement or release of officers, there is another point which should be especially drawn to the attention of the committee, and that is the provision for their retirement. If they are to be retired, I want to see them liberally dealt with; but I do not know that the minister has adopted the right course. He is proposing to add to their years of service for the purpose of increasing their pensions. We have not been accustomed to let out our privates on that basis, and I think the 400 clerks, who were let out of the Militia Department on the first of this month, were not treated in that way. I do not know that it is a proper principle to add unserved time to time served, for the purpose of increasing pensions, but that is the power which the minister is taking under this bill.
Mr. VIEN:
What other course would the hon. gentleman recommend if he wants these men to be treated generously?
Mr. GUTHRIE:
I would retain their services instead of putting other men in their places. We have now a Militia Council, and its place is to be taken by a Council of National Defence. This will mean that new men will be taken on or that other men will be promoted.
Mr. VIEN:
The hon. gentleman said: If the department has to dispense with the services of these men, I wish the minister would treat them generously; but I do not agree with the minister in his proposal of adding to their years of service so as
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to increase their pensions. I put this question to the hon. gentleman. If he does not agree with the policy of adding years to their years of service for the purpose of increasing their pensions, what other course does he suggest, if we admit that their services must be dispensed with?
Mr. GUTHRIE:
I do not admit that their services must be dispensed with. The services of the men, who are now there, and whom I have enumerated, should be retained, and I am asking that they be retained.