Mr. FIELDING:

Is my right hon. friend not reversing his position when he asks for such information?

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I am not at all. If the government say that they do not feel it is in the public interest that these details should be given, I will abide by that decision.

Mr. FIELDING:

The government is not supposed to possess such information.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

But we are asking them to get it.

Mr. FIELDING:

I am not sure that they have the right to get it under the rules.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

That is different from the position taken two years ago. If my hon. friend would take the position that was then taken by us we would not complain.

Mr. FIELDING:

The right hon. gentleman should stand by his own position.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I do, precisely.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Before the minister enters upon his estimates will he be good enough to tell the House whether or not the embargo on Canadian store and breeding cattle entering England has been actually removed?

Hon. W. R. MOTHERWELL (Minister of Agriculture):

We do not expect that the removal will be actually operative until about the first of April, when the United Kingdom authorities expect to have all the preliminaries ready to allow of the importation of stores under the provisions of the act. The question of breeding animals, however, has not yet been disposed of by the British parliament. I might first of all answer one or two

Supply-Health oj Animals

questions that were raised on the last occasion we were in supply. The hon. member for Qu-Appelle (Mr. Millar) then and on a previous occasion referred to a practice which, it was alleged, was in vogue in the vicinity of Calgary-at all events, the allegation appeared in the Farm and Ranch Review of that city -with respect to the purchasing of reactors and the re-sale of them to owners of herds that supplied milk to the cities. I think that was the purport of the complaint.

Mr. MILLAR:

The article that appeared in the Farm and Ranch Review of Calgary states that some people are making a practice of buying old cows at about $8 a head, the inference being that they are acquired in the belief that they will readily react. Then at the proper time they ask for an inspection, and when the cattle react they receive from the government $40 a head compensation. The article states that this practice prevails to a considerable extent around the stockyards of Winnipeg.

Mr. BROWN:

In the case of animals sold at the stockyards the indemnities would come from the condemnation insurance fund and not under an item of this kind.

Mr. MOTHERWELL:

Since this matter was first mooted my deputy took it up with the Veterinary Director General, and I might read a paragraph from a communication of his on the subject:

On January 8th, I wrote to the Editor of the Farm and Ranch Review. As no answer had been received on February 15th, a second letter was sent to him by registered mail. To this letter no reply has yet been received. I enclose copies of both letters.

I think it proper to point out that the dishonest purposes referred to in the newspaper story cannot be achieved as simply as is made to appear possible. Protection to the financial interests of this department is afforded by the fact that no compensation is paid for unimals which reast to the first test in addition to herds under the municipal tuberculosis Order. Dishonesty of the kind is possible only by roundabout methods.

If the animals are purchased in the manner described and, being sold to owners of municipal herds, they react on the first test, then no compensation is given. And this provision is intended to obviate just such a practice as is alleged. With regard to the other suggested practice of buying cattle and holding them until an opportune time for inspection, when they react, I do not see how the owners of such cattle could benefit by this practice if the cattle are grade animals. There is no compensation for grade cattle unless they are tested in conjunction with pure-bred herds. As I have explained, there is no compensation for grade cattle that react on the first test, and it is not likely that people would

be able, to buy pure-bred animals at $8 or $10 apiece; there are not many people who would sell pure-bred cattle at that low figure. So, I presume that the cows purchased at $8 apiece are grade animals; and if they are it is impossible for the owners to get compensation. If they are acquired in the way described they cannot earn compensation because municipal herds are not eligible for compensation under the first test. ^

Mr. MILLAR:

Would the minister like me to read the article in full? It is already in Hansard.

Mr. MOTHERWELL:

I do not think that is necessary. Now, I would refer to one or two other matters while I am about it. It was very gratifying to me to note the objection taken to any reduction in the agricultural estimates, but I endeavoured to make it plain the other day that we hoped to keep up this important service with this reduced amount for the next year. It will be recalled that I spoke of $75,000 or $80,000 being spent in this current year for operating the restricted area in Manitoba. Possibly it would be of interest to the committee to refer to the first report in regard to that restricted area, comprising three municipalities in the neighbourhood of Carman thirty miles from Winnipeg. The Veterinary Director General writes:

A recent telegram from Dr. Hall, who is in charge of the area testing in Manitoba, has reached this office, and it will be interesting to you to hear the progress that has been made. Up to February 21st there have been 255 herds tested, comprising 3.238 cattle, of these 258 reacted, giving a percentage of 7.9.

That is not a large percentage when you take them just as they come, one herd after another.

The staff engaged in this work numbers 12, exclusive of Dr. Hall, who probably is not actually doing any testing himself but supervising and arranging the work of his staff. The area covered comprises a large part of the municipality of Dufferin, and Dr. Hall says that he expects to finish the testing of all the cattle in Dufferin municipality by the 28th instant, and adds that weather conditions have retarded progress.

Because of shortage of funds, for one reason, it is not intended to go ahead next year with any further experiments in this restricted area enterprise. I have explained already that the intention was to gather by an actual try-out, information of what it would cost to clean up a given area. When we had that information we were going to the provinces to see if we could not induce them to co-operate with the federal authorities in tackling this big national work. I might say incidentally that the provincial authorities of British Columbia engaged on the work of compensating for tuberculous animals slaughtered before the Do-

Supply-Health of Animals

minion authorities ever took it up, but it was found to be such an enormous task that the federal government had to come to their assistance and take it in hand . Now the enterprise is so vast and important that all authorities we can get behind it should be induced to co-operate, but we cannot get them to join us until we are in a position to advise them as to the probable cost. We do not contemplate such expenditure next year, and consequently that much can be taken off last year's estimate and still meet the ordinary demands incident to this work. In addition to that, there will be found on the back -of the Votes and Proceedings a resolution indicating the intention of the government to bring in a bill reducing the compensation for pure-bred animals that may be slaughtered on account of being affected with tuberculosis. If that bill passes,-I make that qualification because it did not get through last session; if it had we would not be so short of money this year on this vote; if it passes-it will mean that 8300,000 next year will go as far as $400,000 would this year, or 75 cents next year will go as far in the actual payment of compensation as $1.00 this year.

Mr. GOULD:

In the area referred to in the Carman district of Manitoba does the work embrace grade cattle?

Mr. MOTHERWELL:

Yes, everything that is bovine in character. Another reason is that I think we will have to get along next year with a smaller staff of inspectors, as the work arising in connection with the removal of the British embargo is likely to draw off thirty or forty of our veterinary staff. I expect to have the embargo staff returned inside a year, but in the meantime, we will have only three-quarters of our veterinary staff available for the accredited herd areas. For that reason we purpose keeping up the second examination of all herds that have been tested this year. It is very important that we should do this if we want to clear up those herds that have already been taken in on the first examination.

Mr. CALDWELL:

Did I understand the minister to say that his department is not taking on any new herds this year under the accredited herd system?