Mr. BANCROFT:

I did not understand

the hon. gentleman was arguing that.

Mr. DUFF:

I do not quite understand

what my hon. friend is driving at. I am saying

Hudson Bay Railway

that the ice conditions were such that these steamers were jammed there for a considerable time, whether it was in the Hudson bay or the Hudson strait.

Mr. FORKE:

It is the strait.

Mr. DUFF:

What difference does it make? The steamer must pass through the strait before it gets to the bay.

Mr. IRVINE:

Unless it comes in on the

railroad.

Mr. DUFF:

I did not quite catch my

hon. friend's remark. Captain Anderson goes on:

On the following morning, Monday, 20th July, a move was attempted, but with little success, as it was not safe to try and force a passage in such heavy ice and so closely packed.

Mr. MARTELL:

Was not the steamer

Bonaventure that is referred to formerly a Newfoundland sealing boat specially constructed for ice conditions?

Mr. DUFF:

It belonged to the Newfoundland sealing fleet and was sold to the Department of Railways and Canals for the special purpose of trying to get into Hudson bay. Here is another extract:

From this date until the 30th of the month-July- the ship was more or less hemmed in by the ice pack, which apparently extended to the land. Though able to make an occasional move of a few miles, there was little gain as the southerly Arctic current would carry the ship back again.

The general position was about forty miles off shore and sixty miles S.E. of cape Chidley. During a gale from the south-east, considerable swell entered the ice pack and made a very uncomfortable berth with huge pans of ice bumping and scraping against the. sides of the ship, however, we finally succeeded in securing the ship to a large pan in such a way as to afford protection to the propeller and rudder.

Although no serious mishap took place, minor damages were received. A leak developed in the forepeak tank, necessitating pumping out frequently, and the shell plates were much dented especially at the turn of the bow, breaking connection inside and causing leaks, but we were lucky enough to get them stopped up.

I need not read any more but I may be-

Mr. MILLAR:

Would my hon. friend give the summing up of Captain Anderson?

Mr. DUFF:

When 11 come to it. But it will be a long time before I do reach it if I read all the paragraphs I have marked here. What I was going to say was this: In addition to this report and these photographs showing the ice conditions in Hudson strait and Hudson bay it is also a fact that during the very months when the hon. member for Prince Albert and the hon. member for Nelson said that navigation was feasible, they have very heavy fogs there. This fog is 67 J

caused, as hon. members no doubt know, by the atmosphere being warmer than the ice. with the result that it would be very dangerous for steamers to try to navigate either the straits or the bay even if there was very little ice; the fog is so thick that you cannot, perhaps, see any more than the length of the steamer, and no steamship captain would dare to let his vessel go ahead at very much speed in the effort to navigate this channel. So I say, for that reason, in addition to the ice, the conditions are such that no shipping man would want to charter any boats to go into Hudson strait or Hudson bay.

Mr. CAMPBELL:

Would the hon. member say that the fogs in Hudson bay and Hudson strait are any more dangerous than they are on the southern coast of Newfoundland?

Mr. DUFF:

I cannot answer my hon. friend's question. I do however know what the Newfoundland fogs are like. All I know is that Captain Anderson in his report says that fogs are very heavy there sometimes. I do not care whether it is only for one day, or for the whole season, the fact is that in Hudson bay and Hudson strait they have fogs, ice, and gales. Consequently, these conditions do not make satisfactory reasons for shipping men or such as to cause them to feel justified in chartering vessels either to go into Hudson bay or out of it.

Now, I need not quote any further from these reports. My hon. friends can see these reports, they can read them for themselves -I refer to the reports from 1911 down to 1915, every one of the reports made by Captain Anderson. I think a reading, of these reports will convince every man who has some knowledge of the sea that no shipping company, or no captain, would want to take a chance of going into Hudson bay to load cargoes if he could get freights elsewhere.

Let me say to my hon. friends opposite that although I speak this way, I would be very glad indeed if the Hudson bay route in the opinion of competent men was found to be feasible and for this reason: It would open up a new route for shipping, would give cargo boats more business and in the present depressed state of shipping it would be an excellent thing for the people who own shipping, whether they are steamers or sailing vessels.

Mr. KNOX:

Does my hon. friend think he is fair in quoting exclusively from the reports of Captain Anderson and ignoring the reports presented to the committee and upon which they founded their conclusions submitted to the Senate?

Hudson Bay Railway

Mr. DUFF:

I may say in answer to my hon. friend that the reason I am only quoting from one report is that I do not want to take up too much time to-day. Moreover, I do not think it would help the ease of my hon. friend if I did quote from other reports. For instance, I think it was my hon. friend (Mr. Knox) who quoted the opinion of the former Minister of Railways, Mr. Cochrane, "that the strait and the bay could be kept open by means of wireless telegraph." Now, I would like to know how either the strait or the bay could be kept open by that means.

Mr. KNOX:

Would it not be an aid to navigation?

Mr. DUFF:

I understand that a certain amount of electricity would-

Mr. KNOX:

Would it not be an aid to navigation?

Mr. DUFF:

I cannot see how the wireless would be an aid to navigation either at the terminals or at Port Nelson when a vessel was off cape Chidley or half way in the strait trying to make her way through the ice. You could not put a wireless station out on a pan of ice so as to be of any use to a vessel between Port Nelson and cape Chidley.

Mr. KNOX:

It would not be necessary to do that. We have islands in the straits. The strait is five hundred miles long and between thirty-five and one hundred miles wide and one of these islands could be used for the purpose.

Mr. DUFF:

If the dimensions given by my hon. friend are true one of these islands would not be of very much use; a tower many hundred feet high would have to be erected in order to look out over the ice and see whether there was ice or open water so as to advise steamers coming round cape Chidley.