Mr. JOHNSTON:

Can the minister tell us why this matter has been covered up, so to speak, since 1919, over three years? Is it that it was left to a member of the Farmers' party to bring this thing to light? I am sure it would be appreciated by the members of this party and the people of the country if the minister could give us some light on that point.

Mr. GRAHAM:

If I might be permitted, I am not sure that the Farmers' party has brought much light to the subject. The light was forced upon it. The question that was asked was whether the gratuities were given in perfect order to Mr. Hanna and Mr. Mitchell; but having just received other information, I thought it was wise that parliament should have that also. I am glad my hon. friend brought this matter up. As regards Mr. Hanna, it is well known that it is the custom of large railway corporations to give gratuities or superannuations to old and tried employees. The House will pardon me if I point out that the situation in Mr. Hanna's Case was delicate, and that Mr. Hanna coincided and fell in line with what was done as explained to him by the late Minister of Railways. Let me say this on behalf of Mr. Hanna. Mr. Hanna was not retired because he is not an able man. The government thought-and I am free to confess that as the days and weeks and months have gone on that the judgment was sound-that it would be next to impossible, for reasons that I need not explain, to amalgamate these two great systems with the head of either one at the head of the amalgamated system. I can assure the House that the difficulties that have arisen day by bay in welding together

Gratuities-G.T.R. Officials

these two systems with the official staff of each, have convinced me that, it would have been practically impossible to have done this with the head of either one of the separate systems at the head of the amalgamated system. Mr. Hanna, understanding the situation, sent in his resignation.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I have not the right to speak again, so I shall have to put this in the form of'a question.

Mr. GRAHAM:

I do not know that I have the right either.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Does the minister wish to intimate to the House that Mr. Hanna acquiesced in the resignation; that it was not a virtual dismissal of Mr. Hanna? If so, will the minister undertake to bring down the correspondence in connection with Mr. Hanna's resignation?

Mr. GRAHAM:

Any correspondence that is public, parliament has a right to have at any time it wants it. I do not know whether there was any correspondence.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Yes, there was.

Mr. GRAHAM:

I am speaking only from what I know. If the leader of the Opposition has other information, he can give it to the House.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I have none that the minister has not.

Mr. GRAHAM:

I am speaking from the facts as I understand them. Mr. Hanna resigned, and Mr. Hanna, from that day to this, has acted in connection with the Canadian National Railways, as a man who is interested in the success of that system. There was no superannuation in the old Canadian Northern. Had Mr. Hanna and Mr. Mitchell retired without some consideration, they would therefore have had no benefit of any superannuation. For the benefit, however, of the railway men, something of that kind will be established before very long. It will be remembered that the late Minister or Railways himself, in speaking in this House last year, informed the members of parliament and the country that when any of these old and tried officials were retired, they would have the benefit of superannuation. I imagine he had in mind at that time, not exactly superannuation, but that they would be treated generously. There is nothing secret about the gratuities handed to Mr. Hanna and Mr. Mitchell. This was done publicly, wide open. The late board of directors did not act in any underhand way in connection with this

matter. When they decided to do this, I knew they were going to do it, and I informed the government. So the circumstances are altogether different, and I am prepared to say that the gratuities given to Mr. Hanna and Mr. Mitchell, under all the circumstances, were not more than those to which they were entitled. The country from a practical standpoint is the gainer instead of the loser by the generous treatment accorded these two officials, as any hon. gentleman would admit had he been in the Railway department or been associated with the railway amalgamation during the last six months.

As regards the question asked by my hon, friend, as to why the matter of the othei gratituties was kept hidden, I do not know that there has been any effort to conceal it. The facts are in the minutes of the old Grand Trunk Company, although as a matter of fact they did not come to the notice of the department until a few weeks ago. They are, however, recorded in the minutes of the old Grand Trunk Company in London, and it may be that the board of arbitration took recognizance of these gratuities and other expenditures when making the award. That being the case, it is all the more necessary that we should have an independent commissioner or body of commissioners to place all the facts before us so that the air may be cleared and we may start the new year knowing just where we are at.

Mr. MACLEAN (York):

Will the reference /which will be made to the commission include the letter published a day or two ago by certain officials who did receive gratuities of this kind from the Grand Trunk and who are now in the service of the National Railways?

Mr. CHAPLIN:

Certain gratuities were

given by the Grand Trunk directors to employees who are still in the service of the Canadian National Railways. Are these men going to be allowed to keep these gratuities, or will there be a refund of the amounts paid to them? Will they be told whether it is right or wrong for them to keep the money seeing that they have not lost their positions? What is going to be done in the matter?

Mr. GRAHAM:

My hon. friend has not

seen the morning papers.

Mr. CHAPLIN:

We do not always believe what is in the morning papers.

Mr. GRAHAM:

That may be wise.

Mr. CHAPLIN:

We would sooner have a

statement from the minister.

Gratuities-G.T.R. Ojjicials

Mr. GRAHAM:

Those gentlemen who were given these gratuities under the impression that they were a gift from the shareholders for services they had rendered, when they discovered the peculiar conditions under which the money was given and the source from which the funds had come, informed the president of the Canadian National Railways that they would refund every cent they had received. That is a brief answer but I think it is a complete statement of the case.

Mr. MACLEAN (York):

I wanted to know whether the letter written a few days ago would be referred to the commission.

Mr. GRAHAM:

Everything in connection

with the gratuities will be placed before the commission.

Mr. SPEAKER:

I have allowed these various questions, on the assumption that there was no objection on the part of the House, because the matter is one of considerable importance. But I must remind hon. members that this free discussion is irregular as the House is not yet in committee. There is a motion before the Chair, and hon. members will have an opportunity to discuss the subject fully when the Hopse is in Committee of Supply.