April 16, 1923

PRO

Robert Forke

Progressive

Mr. FORKE:

Is the minister aware of the fact that by the end of May the proper time for the shipment of this class of cattle is nearly past and space will be of little benefit to the shippers after that date?

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   CATTLE SHIPMENTS
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LIB

William Richard Motherwell (Minister of Agriculture)

Liberal

Mr. MOTHERWELL:

Does my hon. friend think we should carry shipping space in our vest pocket ready for immediate requirements? There were two schools of thought apparent in Canada in connection with cattle shipments to Great Britain after the removal of the embargo: One was to deprecate the removal and to point out that there would be nothing much going over anyhow; the other was to exaggerate the movement. Between the two it was pretty difficult for us

to size up the situation. We kept the cattlemen fully supplied with information we gathered in regard to the situation. You cannot restore a trade that has been suspended for thirty years and expect to find everything ready for it3 resumption without some disturbance. Therefore it is quite natural that there should be a shortage of space for a brief period, but, as I have already indicated, in a few weeks there will be more than sufficient accommodation to meet the demand.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   CATTLE SHIPMENTS
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THE BUDGET


On the Orders of the Day:


CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

I rise to ask my hon. friend, the Minister of Finance, whether, he is going to fix this coming week for the introduction of the budget?

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
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LIB

William Stevens Fielding (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Mr. FIELDING:

It would be a great joy to me if I could fix the date for this week, but I am afraid it will have to be postponed. I hope it may be during the coming week, but I do not desire to be too definite. I am almost as anxious as my hon. friend to have it off my mind.

Hon. F. B. CARVELL

On the Orders of the Day:

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
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PRO

George Gibson Coote

Progressive

Mr. COOTE:

Mr. Speaker, I would draw the attention of the Prime Minister to a despatch in the local papers from Vancouver dated April 10th, stating that a letter of protest has been sent to the Prime Minister by the Vancouver Board of Trade in which it characterizes recent statements of Hon. F. B. Carvell, Chief Commissioner of Railways, regarding the attitude of the province of British Columbia toward the freight rate question as showing disregard for the ethics of his position. Has the Prime Minister received this letter? If so, will he be good enough to lay it on the table of the House for the information of members?

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

Mr. Speaker, I have received the letter to which my hon. friend refers and shall have pleasure in laying it on the Table before the House rises.

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
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PRO

George Gibson Coote

Progressive

Mr. COOTE :

Will the Prime Minister also be good enough to secure a copy of the letter sent by Mr. Carvell to the associated boards of trade in British Columbia, which is referred to by the Vancouver Board of Trade?

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

I will not make a definite promise, but I think I can secure a copy of the letter, and if so I will have it placed on the Table with the other communication referred to.

Sales Tax

Topic:   QUESTIONS
Subtopic:   THE BUDGET
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SUPPLY-SALES TAX


On the motion of Hon. W. S. Fielding (Minister of Finance) for Committee of Supply: Mr. JOS. T. SHAW (Calgary West): 1 want to take this opportunity, Mr. Speaker, of bringing to the attention of the House the application of the existing sales tax in so far as it affects public libraries. I am impelled to take this action at this particular time because I read in the public press that the Minister of Finance (Mr. Fielding) is not averse to receiving suggestions from outside deputations with regard to the approaching budget, and it occurred to me that perhaps he might not be unwilling to view with favour suggestions made by members of this House. Under the operation of the existing sales tax public libraries are subjected to a 6 per cent tax on books imported from foreign countries. And may I say at the outset that the majority of our books are imported? If these books are not imported directly they may be purchased, as they often are, from Canadian wholesalers, in which event a sales tax is charged the library of some 2i per cent; but in the price charged by the wholesaler is included the price which he must pay by way of sales tax, totalling 3| per cent. Therefore, in any event the library must pay a sales tax of 6 per cent on its purchases. Another factor that is of great importance to public libraries is the matter of bindings, which they use very considerably. Bindings are subject to a sales tax of 4J per cent. Now, it is rather a strange coincidence that while libraries have been exempted so far as their purchases are concerned from the operation of the customs tariff, they have not been exempted from the sales tax in their purchases of books and bindings. The operation of this sales tax, as I have indicated, constitutes a very grievious burden to public libraries. There is, as must be matter of common knowledge, an increasing demand on public libraries to-day, and it is also a fact that these institutions are receiving decreased appropriations. In the city from which I come we have a very efficient tax-supported public library officered by a very capable official indeed, a library which serves not only our city but a very large surrounding country. In the city of Calgary alone the operation of the sales tax during the present fiscal year will mean the payment by that library of about $1,000. During the year also there has been a decrease in the appropriations for this library totalling $2,000, In the western provinces the operation of the sales tax will mean approximately $10,000 to public libraries, of which amount $7,000 represents the tax on the purchase of books alone. I hold in my hand a letter from the Inspector of Libraries for the province of Ontario, and I should like to indicate his views in connection with this matter. Referring to the libraries in Ontario, he says: Our libraries expended in that year $164,185. That is, the year 1921. Continuing, he says: The sales tax is a heavy burden on our libraries. The prices of books have increased tremendously since before the war, and the libraries' incomes are decidedly limited. The Dominion government has always recognized the general public service of public libraries by permitting imported books to come to the public libraries free of duty. Surely the sales tax should be removed when it is in the general public's good that it should be removed. The Ontario legislature bases its grants largely on book purchases, and we find that our grants are not as effective by reason of the tax that is imposed ? It is apparent, therefore, to anyone who ponders the situation for a moment that the tax-supported public libraries find themselves ground between the millstones of heavy federal taxation on the one hand and a decreasing appropriation on the other, the latter due primarily to the financial stringency. While the tax does bear very seriously upon the individual library, I think it can fairly be said that the aggregate amount received by the government, so far as the application of the tax to libraries is concerned, is very insignificant indeed. The special objection which I have to the particular tax that I am referring to is that it constitutes a tax upon taxation. This is a case of double taxation, and falling as it does upon a tax supported institution, it bears very heavily indeed. Strange to relate, when the statute was drawn the provincial libraries were specially exempted, but other public libraries, equally tax-supported, were not favoured with exemption. Under these circumstances I am asking the House in the form of a resolution to indicate that this tax should be removed, in its application to public libraries in so far as it affects the purchase of books and of binding supplies. I know that I shall be met with one or two arguments. It will be suggested. I doubt not, that the matter should first be taken up with the Finance Minister (Mr. Fielding) or the Minister of Customs and Excise (Mr. Bureau). But the library officials last year did take the matter up not only with the Minister of Finance but with the Minister of Customs and Excise, and they did not accomplish their desire. It will be urged, also, I assume, that to move an amendment when going into Coni- Sales Tax mittee of Supply constitutes a vote of want of confidence in the government. I have not any desire by this vote to indicate any such want of confidence so far as this particular item is concerned. I do want to suggest however, that there has not been any other opportunity to bring this matter to the attention of the House. Had I brought it up by way of private member's resolution I should have been met with the suggestion that it constituted in effect a subtraction of the public revenue and consequently would not be legal under that head. Bringing it up at this time, I may be met with the suggestion, as I have said, that it is a vote of want of confidence. Well, it is about time that hoary tradition was dispensed with; and I notice that in the Mother of Parliaments itself, the most transparent technicality has lately been taken advantage of in order to obviate the application of that rule. Then again, it may be urged, "Why not bring it up in the budget debate?" But if ever there was a time for pious platitudes, surely it is when the budget is under consideration, I do suggest to the government that this is the time and this is the place to bring to the attention of parliament a matter which to my mind is of vital significance to our public libraries and also to the reading public. But I may be met further with the argument: "Why pick out this particular item? Why single out the sales tax in its application to public libraries? Why not deal with a dozen other things?" Well, I want to say at the outset that the tax in its effect upon libraries is particularly vicious, particularly harmful. It is, as I have pointed out, a tax upon taxation; it is in a category by itself so far as sales tax is concerned. And not only that: while I have very serious objection to the sales tax in many directions, I sometimes think it is much more desirable to attack the enemy in detail rather than by making a' frontal attack. I feel, that it is going to be a great many years before we shall have in vogue in ' this country a proper, scientific system of taxation. No effort has yet been made to delimit, if you like, the various fields of taxation-Dominion, provincial, and municipal. Consequently I must take this opportunity of presenting to the House a resolution dealing with this particular matter. I move in amendment: That all the words in the resolution after the word "that" be struck out and the following substituted therefor: Whereas public libraries are necessary and valuable educational institutions not existing for profit and supported by public taxation, And whereas, on account of the increasing demand for library facilities and the difficult economic conditions prevailing, public libraries in Canada are experiencing the greatest difficulty in financing their reasonable requirements, And whereas the application of the sales tax on the purchases of books and book-binding by public libraries constitutes a heavy financial burden, limiting the usefulness and impairing the efficiency of such public libraries, Therefore be it resolved that this House deems it advisable that public libraries in Canada, supported by public taxation, be exempted from the operation of the sales tax in so far as the same affects the purchases of books and book-binding by such public libraries. The amendment is seconded by the hon. member for McLeod (Mr. Coote).


LIB

William Stevens Fielding (Minister of Finance and Receiver General)

Liberal

Hon. W. S. FIELDING (Minister of Finance) :

Mr. Speaker, on the question of nonconfidence to which the hon. gentleman has referred I am reminded of the old lines, "It was all very well to dissemble your love, but why did you kick me downstairs?" I do not want to dwell on the question of non-confidence. I think I have a better reason for asking my hon. friend not to press his motion, or if he is to press it, for asking the House not to accept it.

With what he has said as to the importance of public libraries, the desirability of encouraging them and the hard times they are perhaps having, I am sure I can heartily sympathize, as I am sure most members of the House will, but that is by no means a conclusive reason why we should adopt this motion. I am not at the moment expressing any opinion whether it is or is not desirable that we should exempt public libraries from the sales tax. This is but one of twenty questions which are being presented to the government by hon. members on both sides of the House. I am sure I am probably within my facts when I say that I see before me on the two portions of the opposite benches at least a score of gentlemen who have done me the honour of calling upon me to impress upon me some particular thing in which they would like some reduction of taxation or some exemption from the operation of this or that tax. One gentleman here on this side of the House makes a habit of urging the exemption from the income tax where there are a certain number of children. Another hon. member brings forward some particular thing in which he is sincerely desirous of having a change, and no doubt they could all make a measure of popularity if they would get up in this House and become the champion -of this or that particular thing. But why should we select among these fifty or more things-perhaps I had

Sales Tax

better be moderate and say among the twenty or more changes proposed:-why pick out of the basket this particular thing and ask the judgment of the House upon it this afternoon? I fail to see the reason. I had a large deputation the other day urging very strongly that in the matter of income tax any man who contributes to charity or religion or any of the various noble causes which we are all asked to help should not be taxed on what he contributes for that purpose. That is perhaps as strong a case as my hon. friend from Calgary (Mr. Shaw) brings forward, but all who have these things in mind have been content to make their case and await the moving of the waters. I know of no reason why this particular case or fad, if I may dare call it that, and not offensively, for fads are good things at times, should be selected for us to vote upon to-day. If it is good policy to do that, then hon. gentlemen opposite-I am not designating any member-who have come before me and asked that a particular tax be abolished ought to get up and move in the same way and somebody else move for income tax exemption where there are children. Each of these things may be important in itself, but I submit to the House there is no good reason why we should pick out this particular thing and ask the House to pass judgment upon it this afternoon.

The sales tax is not a particular baby of my own. It was a system, and probably a necessary system, established by the forme.-government. I have had the unpleasant duty of increasing the amount of it. That is my crime in the matter. When the late government devised the tax I know that they made many exemptions; some people think too many; I know there is something to be said against exemptions. But the late government did make a very liberal list of exemptions. They considered public libraries I have no doubt, and no doubt thought that taken all in all libraries could stand the tax as well as many other things. I am not declaring against the judgment of the hon. member for Calgary. I am asking him to consider whether it is wise to ask the House to select this particular one out of the many questions, anticipate the budget, and ask for a vote upon it now. I do not think that is fair. I do not think either party in the House should accept the motion.

Amendment negatived.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SALES TAX
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SUPPLY-SPECIAL DELIVERY LETTER POSTAGE

LIB

Charles Marcil

Liberal

Hon. CHARLES MARCIL (Bonaventure):

Before you leave the chair, Mr. Speaker, I

would like to call the attention of the Acting Postmaster General (Mr. Graham) to a matter concerning which I should have spoken when the House was in supply, but being occupied in a committee of the House I was unable to do so. It is regarding the special delivery of letters, on which a stamp of twenty cents has now to be placed. Many complaints have reached me from Montreal on this subject, and I would like to call the attention of the acting minister to the matter so that he may investigate it.

When the special delivery was originally devised, the postage was fixed at ten cents; it is now twenty cents, in addition to the three cents ordinary postage. That makes twenty-three cents for a special delivery letter. Last Thursday I had occasion to send a special delivery letter to Montreal,. placing twenty cents postage on it. The letter was wrongly delivered, but I am not complaining of that, as the address might not have been as perfect as it should have been.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SPECIAL DELIVERY LETTER POSTAGE
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LIB

Hewitt Bostock (Speaker of the Senate)

Liberal

Mr. SPEAKER:

I would ask hon. gentlemen to kindly refrain from conversation while the hon. member is addressing the House.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SPECIAL DELIVERY LETTER POSTAGE
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LIB

Charles Marcil

Liberal

Mr. MARCIL (Bonaventure):

Montreal is now a very large city and it includes many outlying municipalities. When a special delivery letter, bearing a twenty-cent stamp in addition to the usual postage stamp, is brought into the post office it is handed over to a boy who is paid eight cents to deliver the letter in any part of the city which is served by the Montreal general post office. The government has received twenty-three cents from this letter and pays only eight cents to the messenger for its delivery. By common knowledge in the Montreal post office these messenger boys are the worst paid in the service, and I would ask the minister even if he cannot reduce the taxation on letters to at least give some encouragement to these messengers and grant them a better remuneration than they are receiving at the present time. Because these boys may have to go, in the course of their journeys, to almost the extreme end of the island of Montreal to deliver one of these letters for eight cents; they spend practically the best part of the forenoon and afternoon and are even employed late in the evening, at this work. If the ordinary postage rate is going to be reduced, at any time, from three to two cents, I would ask the government to consider whether it would not be possible to revert to the old rate of ten cents for special delivery letters from the present rate of twenty cents, and thereby increase the use of this facility which is not as well resorted to at the present time as it used to be in the old days. I hope the minister will give his atten-

Supply-I mmigration

tion to these matters and see if something cannot be done along the lines indicated to improve the service.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SPECIAL DELIVERY LETTER POSTAGE
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

I will bring the facts stated by my hon. friend, as well as his request, to the notice of the department so that they may receive full consideration.

Motion agreed to and the House went into Committee of Supply, Air. Gordon in the chair.

Topic:   SUPPLY-SPECIAL DELIVERY LETTER POSTAGE
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IMMIGRATION AND COLONIZATION

April 16, 1923