Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil):

I think I gave the committee when the matter was under discussion before the names of those connected with the organization. Lest I forget, before leaving the matter of publicity, there is one very important feature that I must mention. We have an arrangement both in Canada and in Great Britain under which the transportation companies and the government have formed a publicity committee. This committee is for the purpose of preventing overlapping and getting full value for the expenditure on publicity, and to this end various fields of advertising are allocated to particular parties. This committee will co-ordinate our whole publicity campaign. In Canada the committee is headed by Mr. Stead, who is our chief publicity officer, and in Great Britain by Mr. Obed Smith, our superintendent of immigration for Canada in London.

. I think I covered most of the field the other day in connection with the Canada Colonization Association. One of the features my hon. friend objected to was the commissions that were to be taken by the association. I may say that 5 per cent goes to the local agent in the United States, who is'paid no other salary ; and 2J per cent goes to the local agent in Canada who secures the listing and the necessary information surrounding it. So that in all only 2| per cent of this commission will go to the association. I told the committee that Mr. Everett, the manager of the organization, will confine the association's efforts almost entirely to the United States. I am advised that they have collected in all from their subscribers $160,000. They assure me that their subscriptions will still continue. They have a budget of some $15,000 per month, which includes the following salaries: vice-president, $500; secretary-treasurer, $500; general manager, $1,000; secretary to the general manager, $175; office manager, $250; sales manager, $416; manager of listing bureau, $291; four stenographers, $371; office boy, $60; office rent, $311; attorney's fees, $200; stationery and printing, $1,000; office supplies, $83; descriptive literature, $416; general advertising, $500; one field man, $275, his travelling expenses, $833; filing clerk, $100; postage and express, $416. Those expenses are for the

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Winnipeg office. For the St. Paul office the expenses per month are: superintendent of agencies, $500; office manager, $416; two stenographers, $225; one book-keeper, $125; office boy, $60; rentals, $100; office supplies and blank forms, $250; newspapers and magazines, $500; descriptive Canadian literature, $833;, salaries of five field men, $1,375; travelling expenses, $1,458; railway fares and concessions, $1,200; postage and express, $250.

Mr. MILLAR:

Who is to appraise the value of the land to be occupied by these settlers?

Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil):

I will give the information shortly. In order that we may have an understanding of the matter 1 will read the following list of tentative proposals made at the time:

1. The association agreed to continue to list and offer for sale lands along existing railway lines on their thirty-two year payment plan at 6 per cent interest.

2. Lands and location to be subject to inspection to determine suitability and fix maximum prices-this to be undertaken either by the provincial or Dominion government.

In answer to my hon. friend I may say that the Manitoba government have expressed their willingness to undertake this work. This is not true of the other two prairie provinces and it would have to be undertaken by a representative of the Soldiers' Settlement Board. In 50 per cent of the cases this board already have the values fixed upon lands adjacent to the railways, because I do not think it would be good business to permit the sale of lands at any distance from the railways, particularly where we are giving government assistance in the way of helping any organization to perform this service.

Mr. MILLAR:

Who fixes,the value of the 50 per cent, the Canada Colonization Association?

Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil):

I fear I did not make myself clear to my hon. friend. At the moment almost 50 per cent of these lands within ten or twelve miles of the railways are already listed by the Soldiers' Settlement Board. If they have not been inspected by the officials of the board, they at least have a fair idea of their values and they could readily fix the maximum values. But in the case of Manitoba, if the provincial government assume that duty it will not be performed by the Soldiers' Settlement Board. But the point is that the company are willing to submit their listings to the' government officials for the purposes of inspection as to maximum value and adaptability for settlement. This is important, because lands which are some dis-

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tance from the railway could be sold more cheaply than those in its immediate vicinity. Then, we have large areas of free lands that would appeal to some people, lands which are a long distance from the railways. But the idea is to get settlers on lands that are contiguous to the railways, and also to prevent the foisting of poor lands upon people who have not had very much experience in that connection.

Mr. GOULD:

This is a hypothetical case: suppose an individual in one of our villages in the West wished to go on the land; would the same conditions apply as to the Canada Colonization Association, percentages and so on?

Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil):

I do not know that I can answer my hon. friend in that respect, because the service is an outside service rather than one for' people, living in villages in this country who might be desirous of going on the land. But I can quite see the desirability of their securing a contract of this kind, at 6 per cent.

Mr. GOULD:

Five. [DOT]

Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil):

The provision is for 6; it is doubtful whether that figure could be reduced. But I do not think the association should be entitled to receive the same remuneration from the individual who is in the country and who walks into their office as they receive in the case of those whom they have to bring into the country.

Mr. GOULD:

The reason I ask the question is because I believe that the department should place restrictions in this respect in the agreement with the Canada Colonization Association. If no such restrictions are provided, I believe they should be.

Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil):

That is a perfectly reasonable suggestion-that a Canadian citizen in a town or city who desires to go upon the land and take advantage of this long term payment plan should be able to do so at reasonable cost.

Mr. THURSTON:

Why confine it to cities? It might be a farmer from an eastern province who wished to take up the land.

Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil):

Suppose we say Canadian citizen.

Mr. GARDINER:

When were the values of these lands determined by the Soldier Settlement Board?

Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil):

They have been operating now for over three years, and

TMr. C. A. Stewart.]

they have been placing these values right along ever since. If any information is found not to be authentic a reinspection would have to be made.

Mr. GARDINER:

This is an important point. A valuation placed on a piece of land some three or four years ago by the Soldier Settlement Board might not be a real indication of the value of that land to-day.

Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil):

Not if it was made three years ago-I agree with my hon. friend, because land was then selling at a higher rate than we do now. But no matter how much we may disagree about the Soldier Settlement Board or about its success, we know that after they became familiar with the valuation of land they valued it pretty closely. There has, of course, been a considerable drop in the price of land during the last three years. The memorandum continues:

3. The association agrees that all moneys received from subscribers, commissions on sales of land, or government grants, will be utilized to carry on settlement work.

4. The association agrees to furnish to the Department of Immigration monthly reports of their activities and a list of all lands sold and where located.

5. The association agrees to continue to employ a firm of chartered accountants, subject to the approval of the Minister of Immigration, to make monthly audits to accompany reports from the association, and that the books and financial statements will at all times be open for government inspection.

6. The Minister of Immigration to be satisfied from monthly reports that satisfactory progress in settlement is being made, and that the continuance of financial support by the subscribers will be maintained; and these reports shall be the basis upon which he shall authorize payments of the proposed grant of $10,000 each month. *

That is, briefly, the plan adopted by the government in connection with the grant to the Canada Colonization Association.

Mr. BOYS:

Would the minister inform the committee what he was reading from just now? Is that a written proposition that the association makes to the department, or what is the idea?

Mr. STEWART (Argenteuil):

It is the

proposition that was discussed tentatively with the association when the grant was requested, though not so fully in detail. The arrangement made at that time was that the government should be assured that the association was being supported by its subscribers. There was no question in my mind at least as to the advantages of the scheme of settlement proposed by the association, but it was desired that there should be an assurance that the association was being supported by private individuals who went into this scheme for the patriotic purpose of settling lands in the vicinity of the railways. Every hon. member will

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admit that the question of dealing with privately-owned lands so far as settlement is concerned is a difficult one for any government. However, the idea that was had in mind when this matter was discussed was as I have stated it; it was desired that the government or the department should be safeguarded by the provisions contained in this memorandum.

Mr. STEVENS:

Is there any written contract or agreement between the department and the association?