Mr. SPEAKER:

Before I put the motion to the House I may say that I have some doubts as to the regularity of the proceeding. I ask myself if this is not a matter which is more provincial in its character than federal. However, I am quite willing to give the hon. member the benefit of the doubt and leave the matter to the House. Is it the pleasure of the House that the hon. member shall have leave to make his motion?

Carried'.

Mr. SPEAKER:

The rule is very clear and states that twenty members must rise in their seats before leave may be granted.

The Clerk Assistant having stated that more than twenty members had risen:

Mr. WOODSWORTH:

I move that the House do now adjourn. I had hoped to be able to discuss the situation in Nova Scotia in connection with the motion now on the order paper, but within the last few weeks, and especially within the last few d'ays, the situation there has become so acute that it seems only right to take the first opportunity of bringing the serious condition to the attention of the House. I trust that to-day we will not look at this matter from a partisan standpoint-indeed I cannot see why partisanship should enter into it at all-but rather that we should look at the matter from the standpoint of the welfare of our citizenship at large, and emphasize more particularly the humanitarian side of the question. My decision to bring this question before the House was precipitated by a telegram that I had a day or so ago from the relief committee of one of the local unions of Sydney Mines which reads as follows:

Distress very acute at Sydney Mines; ask immediate relief from the government; people destitute; reply at once.

How should I reply to such a telegram as that? I might very readily escape responsibility by simply saying that it was not the policy of the government to give relief. I might even go further and say that that policy was based on a certain interpretation of the British North America Act, but I am quite confident that an answer of that kind would give no satisfaction to men who are half desperate at the present time, and I fear that I myself, occupying as a member of this House a position of some influence, have no right to take the easy course and to shelve responsibility in that way. I am well aware of the fact that negotiations are now in progress. According to the press, the provincial government has offered some new proposal of which we have not yet the details. I know

Miniers and Steel Workers

it has been suggested that Nova Scotia might possibly take action in the direction of appointing a royal commission. I know it is generally held that the municipalities or the provinces ought to have first responsibility in caring for the people, and yet it seems to me that when an appeal comes from people who are in dire straits, we ought to give them, at least a hearing.

As regards the provincial situation, the men themselves are very doubtful whether the existing provincial government can be expected to do anything that will afford them any great measure of relief. I do not say whether they are right or wrong, but I know a large number of the men have lost their faith in the possibility of the government, as it now exists in Nova Scotia, helping them very much. Many of them are firmly convinced that that government is altogether too closely associated with the company in whose employ they work to be in a position to afford them any large measure of relief.

Had I replied to that telegram as I felt half inclined to do, I would almost have had to say: You men in Nova Scotia will have to do something desperate in order that you may, in some dramatic way, bring your case before the public at large. I do not want to have to say that, so I decided to make an appeal to this House and to the government that they would not force the men to resort to other means of trying to bring some relief to themselves and their families. The federal government has, relative to the peace, order and good government of Canada, certain powers that make it possible, nay, obligatory, that in circumstances of this kind action should be taken.

I would point out that need of a serious character knows no boundaries, provincial or even national. When an earthquake occurred in Japan a few months ago, expressions of sympathy and material relief came from all parts of this country. When there was an explosion at Halifax some years ago, we all know that from every side there came help. We, in the west, have known years when, owing to very bad crops, there was dire distress, and the government came to the assistance of the people and certain settlers were afforded relief. If there is the need that we are told there is, it seems to me that the government ought not to hesitate.

It is not my privilege to suggest in any detail what might be done. I would, however, urge action along two lines: First, that some immediate relief should be given to these miners and steel workers. Their wives and children ought not to be allowed to starve or to suffer extreme privations. Further than

that, this government ought not to delay longer in instituting a very definite, impartial and full inquiry into the whole circumstances as they exist to-day in Nova Scotia. This is not a new question; we have had! it up year after year. I think it is three years ago that, on representations from the mayors in some of the towns in Nova Scotia, my colleague (Mr. Irvine) moved the adjournment of the House in order that we might urge the necessity of the appointment of a royal commission.

A great deal has happened during those three years. Every year we have had industrial troubles. Every year we have had either a commission or a court of inquiry. Things seem to be worse now than they ever were before. It is quite true that there is no strike at present in existence and it is hoped that there will be no strike. It is quite true that there is no definitely declared lockout. The situation is that the agreement with the men has run out; that it has been impossible to effect a working arrangement, and that whether or not working arrangement is arrived at, there has not been for a long time sufficient work for the men. Many of the steel workers at Sydney Mines have been out of work for the past six months; many of the coal miners have been -working short time for the past six months and their reserves are sadly depleted.

Let me give a few facts in this matter, because it is, after all, upon the facts of the case that we must form a judgment. A few days ago I called attention to statements made by Premier Armstrong when he was here heading a deputation from the Maritime provinces. According to press despatches, he is reported as having made this statement:

That at the Sydney Mines in one of the coal towns, so acute is the situation that people were suffering from hunger and some were actually living on mushrooms picked in the woods. Such a situation, he said, required action by the government. There were 23,000 people unemployed and more than 100,000 dependents affected.

I do not know that that statement published broadcast through the press has ever been challenged. Personally, I am not in a position to say whether or not those figures are correct, but that is the information which has gone on record. I have had some personal knowledge of the situation within the last few months. Shortly after the new year I visited most of the mining camps in Nova Scotia, especially in Cape Breton. I lived for a week or ten days in the miners' homes. I talked with scores of the men. I learned something of their stories. I learned something of the struggles that they were having in trying to make a living for their families.

Mirters and Steel Workers

I talked with some of the women and learned how they were trying to feed and clothe their children. I am not surprised, after what I heard a few weeks ago, that the situation should have become well nigh desperate at this time. We have confirmation of that from several quarters just within the last few days. Let me read a report, from the last issue to arrive here of the Sydney Post- February 20. Under the heading "Industrial life of Sydney and mining towns in south is rapidly disintegrating," we have the following:

The presbytery of Sydney in common with other public bodies viewed with the gravest concern the present conditions prevailing in the industrial life of this community and believes that some immediate action is necessary if business and social life is not to disintegrate entirely.

An unprecedented situation has developed where many of our industrial workers are in direct want and compelled to accept charity in order to subsist; some 300 families in Sydney alone receiving aid from the relief association, while living conditions among the miners as evidenced by a statement published by the committee at Dominion No. 6 reveals a similar or worse state of affairs. The steel plant has been practically idle for the last six months, notwithstanding a drastic wage cut taken by the employees, and, though we are credibly informed that there are sufficient orders on the books to warrant its operation at the present time, it is still practically shut down. We therefore submit:

(1) That a royal commission of competent and disinterested men with full powers, be appointed at once to investigate thoroughly the organization, financial methods, and operations of Besco, including wage conditions and cost of living among the workers.

(2) That while suspending judgment on the question of the wage which the Besco is able to pay its miners, we believe that the 1924 rate should be continued until such time as the royal commission shall have reported.

(3) That the steel plant should begin operations immediately since we are convinced that there is no justification whatever for further using the idle steel workers as pawns in the game of industrial strategy.

There are just two observations in that article to which I should like to call attention. In the first place, there is the statement on the part of this clergyman in the district that immediate action is necessary if business and social life is not to disintegrate entirely. That, I think, is a most serious statement, sufficient in itself to warrant my bringing the matter to the attention of the House. And there is the second statement, that there is no justification whatever for further using the idle steel workers as pawns in the game of industrial strategy. It seems to me that whatever else we do we must bear in mind the human values, and I take it that the highest task which this House could set itself would be to defend the rights of the workers under these circumstances.

Let me read further from the Labour Herald, the organ of the labour men of Glace Bay:

One of the largest meetings ever held in Glace Bay took place last Sunday in the Savoy Theatre. The

meeting was called by the idle miners of Nos. 2, 4 and 6 mines, for the purpose of laying the terrible conditions of want and starvation being endured by the workers at these collieries before the public, and to protest against the action of Besco in keeping these mines idle. The hall was packed to the roof with some 1,500 people when Mayor Morrison took the chair. Many of the doctors and clergy of the town took part in the meeting, telling of the terrible conditions found by them in their daily visits to the homes of the workers.

The miners employed in the above named mines have worked less than half time since January, 1923, and since the 15th of November last year have only got in 15 days' work. One clergyman, who evidently had given some consideration to the amounts that the miners were forced to live on, pointed out that families in his district for the year 1924 had actually lived on four cents a meal. He told of families where the children were clothed in discarded flour bags and where the only bed clothes were old feed bags.

In another column I find an account of a recent meeting of one of the locals of the miners. I quote the following:

The terrible distress existing in the Sydney Mines district was brought vividly before this meeting. The miners were feeling good, as they realized their strength in staying the greedy hand, when the door of the meeting place was pushed open and a little girl not more than ten years of age entered. She had a slip of paper in her hand which she gave to the president. It appeared that the father of the child could not leave home because his wife was sick and could not be moved or left alone, another child was dying and there was not a crust of bread in the house. The father had been idle two months. A committee was at once appointed to visit the family and give them relief.

The foregoing is from an account of a meeting of the local. I was informed two months ago that there were many cases of this character in this particular locality, but the gravest that I met with was at Sydney Mines among the steel workers.

Mr. FOURNIER:

What is the paper from which the hon. member is quoting?

Mr. WOODSWORTH:

The Labour Herald of February 21. My eye catches another contribution in this same paper which I think perhaps I might well read on this occasion. It is a little poem, not by some leader who is supposed to be very "red" in his tendencies, not ithe work of a Bolshevist nor of any man commonly known as an anarchist, but one of the works of the English poet Shelley. Some of us read in our youthful days the ode To a Skylark, but possibly not so many of us read that other group of poems, The Masque of Anarchy, and others of a similar character which Shelley wrote. And I suppose that even when we read them we imagined that since Castlereagh had passed away, with the reactionaries of his period, the conditions depicted in this little poem could hardly be again found on

Miners and Steel Workers

English soil. Yet we have these miners resorting to the poems of Shelley, written at that time of great distress in the history of England one hundred years ago, in order that they may find in them some expression of the position in which they find themselves today:

WHAT IS SLAVERY?

' Tjs to work and have such pay As just keeps life from day to day In our limbs as in a cell,

For the tyrant's use to dwell.

1 Tis to be a slave in soul.

And to hold no strong control Over our own will, but be All that others make of ye.

So that ye for them are made,

Loom and plough and sword and spade,

With or without your own will, bent To their defense and nourishment.

' Tis to see our children weak With their mothers pine and peak.

When the winter's winds are bleak-

They are dying while I speak.

* Tis to hunger for such diet As the rich man in his riot Casts to the fat dogs that lie Surfeiting beneath his eye.

And at length when you complain,

With a murmur weak and vain,

'Tis to see the Tyrant's crew Ride over your wives and you.

Men of labour, heirs of glory,

Heroes of unwritten story,

Nurslings of one mighty mother,

Hopes of her and one another;

Rise like lions after slumber In unvanquishable number;

Shake your chains to earth like dew Which in sleep has fallen on you-

Ye are many-they are few.

As I have suggested, the reproduction of a poem of this character in the ordinary issue of a labour paper under these circumstances gives a sidelight into the pyschology of these coal miners and steel workers which we cannot very well disregard. If I wish to find further corroboration of the actual conditions that exist I might quote, not from any of these articles by clergymen or by workers themselves, but rather from a report presented to this government, the Winfield conciliation report. Although it may be true that the decision of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council may have rendered the action of that body practically of no avail, I suggest that their findings are worthy of consideration.

The board is unanimously of the opinion that, due to the unfortunate relations existing for many years between the operators and the employees, as set forth in the statement of the employees submitted to the minister, and further elaborated in the statement submitted to the board, no permanent improvement in industrial relations can be expected until complete confidence is established between the operators and the employees, which may possibly be brought about by a fair and impartial inquiry by a competent authority with a view to ascertaining the actual necessary cost of mining, transporting and selling coal, the ability of the companies to pay a rate

of wage satisfactory to the employees to earn a fair return on the capital invested, and the bearing which the attitude and action of the employees have in relation to the efficient and profitable carrying on of the operations.

And again:

That under prevailing conditions many of the employees are unable to obtain more than meagre parttime employment in the winter season, entailing serious far-reaching hardships, and that this deplorable state of affairs can probably be remedied by the companies being able to secure remunerative outlets for their products when access to the markets in central Canada is cut off by the closing of navigation, prohibitive railroad freight rates and other causes.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I am perfectly well aware that the situation in Cape Breton is an extremely complicated one. I recognize that there are more factors to be considered' than could be dealt with under a motion of this character. I am not here to-day to censure any one particular group. I recognize some of the difficulties which this government might have in dealing with the matter. And yet it does seem to me that, whilst the government might give some immediate relief in the way of food and' clothing, it should go further and make a general inquiry into the underlying conditions that have so frequently provoked actual industrial strife and led to the expenditure of large sums of public money in attempts to keep the peace, a state of affairs which its own committee says can be remedied only by a very exhaustive inquiry, an inquiry not merely into the working conditions and wages, but also into the financial side of the company's organization. Perhaps I cannot do better than read part of a statement recently submitted by the men themselves as the reason why they would not appoint a representative on the conciliation board. The statement is carefully drawn and puts into a very few pages the entire situation as the men see it.

Mr. MARTELL:

Will my hon. friend permit a question there? The Industrial Disputes Act having been d'eclared ultra vires by the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, what would be the use of the men appointing a representative on the conciliation board?

Mr. WOODSWORTH:

I quite agree that there was very little use in the men appointing a representative on the conciliation board. As a matter of fact they refused to do so before we knew the decision of the Privy Council with regard to the Lemieux Act. But my point in reading the statement of the men is that we may understand something of the underlying difficulties as they are seen by the men themselves. This is their statement:

Miners and Steel Workers

To the Chairman and Members of the Conciliation Board and to the Honourable, the Minister of Labour for Canada.

Sirs,-We have been asked by the British Empire Steel Corporation to accept a cut in the wages of the employees in and about the corporation's coal mines, for the following reasons:

(1) The steel trade is so depressed that the Sydney steel plant cannot operate at a profit.

(2) The coal trade has become unsatisfactory, owing to the ability of United States producers to undersell our coal in the Canadian markets.

The Steel Trade

We cannot permit the condition of the steel trade to control the rates of wages for employment in the mines of the corporation, for the following reasons:

(1) The various coal companies are operating under charters of their own. The condition of the steel company is as foreign to the present wage dispute as is the state of affairs existing at the Halifax ship-yards, except in so far as the wealth and resources of the coal companies may have been diverted out of their proper channels to sustain the steel company and other stricken units of the corporation, to the detriment of the coal companies and their employees.

(2) During the war, when the steel company made profits, these profits were not sufficiently employed in rejuvenating the plant and bringing its constituent units up to date. Too much was paid out in dividends on common stock, and on unprofitable projects. The result to-day is that the steel plant is in many of its essential departments far behind the rival plants in America and cannot successfully compete with them. The employees of the different coal companies are not responsible for this mal-administration, and yet it is proposed to cut our wages because of it.

(3) During the period of normal operations, the steel plant carried a top-heavy staff of highly-paid officials, unjustified by its operations. Even yet, with its operations at a very low ebb for many months past, its over-staffing may be judged from the fact that it carries a general manager and general superintendent, with high salaries, as well as a vice-president of the merged companies, all in charge of operations which are not perceptible.

(4) The steel plant for years has carried out a policy of low wages, long hours and non-unionization, that drives many efficient young men to seek employment outside Nova Scotia. Those that remain generally do so because their interests are so centered that they cannot get away. Annually, the employees of the steel works are skimmed of a high percentage of their best men, who go to foreign plants, and their places are taken by low-grade European immigrants. We believe that a profitable industry cannot be run without paying wages that will attract the most proficient men in the trades concerned.

(5) We believe that the steel company has lost trade because it has marketed a lower grade (product than that called for, and that some potential customers will not deal with it for that reason.

(6) The system of appointing foremen and the general treatment of employees on the steel plant is so defective that it has made the employees antagonistic to the welfare of the plant, and we believe that an industry cannot succeed in the face of the antagonism of its employees.

(7) We believe that the sales department of the steel company is peculiarly inefficient and unsatisfactory.

(8) We believe that large sums of money are injudiciously spent in the operation of this plant or its connections, in giving contracts of one kind or another to concerns in which directors of the corporation or their friends are interested.

(9) We were not consulted when the steel plant, which was unprofitable and had been kept' alive for years before that time by government relief in the form of bounties and by tax exemptions was merged with the coal mines, which always were profitable. Since that time the profits or losses of the one as compared with the other have not been submitted to the public; but we believe that, with the exception of the years of var, the profit has been made by the coal mines, and i hat the steel plant has been carried on at a loss. It 1 as not been able to pay its way, and if would be iiteresting to know who paid its way, and under what authority. The employees of the coal companies believe that they contributed heavily for this purpose; and that the reduction of wages now-

Mr. MARTELL:

If my hon. friend will

permit me? I am thoroughly in accord with what the men say in that regard: coal has paid for everything in Nova Scotia.

Mr. WOODSWORTH:

I continue:

The employees of the coal companies believe that they contrijbuted heavily for thin purpose; and that the reduction of wages now proposed by the president is intended to be used for the same purpose.Figures have been given which show that the coal

companies made money last year, and we have been assured that any out in our wages will not reduce the selling price of coal. The reduction to be made in the miners' wages, therefore, will go to pay the debts of the lame-ducks of the corporation.

(10) Since the amalgamation of the Dominion Coal

Company and Dominion Iron & Steel Company, the latter company has consumed annually between 500,000 and 1,000,000 tons of coal. We believe that the coalcompany has been credited with a price for this coal

considerably under its contract value. Upon this item alone many millions of dollars have been taken from our wages for the benefit of the steel plant, and this improper practice still continues.

They pass on to consider the coal trade:

We are unable to consider costs in the coal trade as a ground for reducing our wages, because:

(1) The company has supplied us with figures showing that the cost of labour in only 40 per cent of the average selling price of its coal.

(2) We know of Dominion Coal Company coal sold in the province of Nova Scotia, in which the labour cost is nearer 20 per cent than 40 per cent.

(3) Accepting the company's own figures for the sake of argument, we are not allowed any control of at least 60 per cent of the price of the coal.

(4) Into this 60 per cent, which is controlled exclusively by the company, enter very many items which we know to be improper or inefficient.

(5) Items similar to the payment to members of the Newfoundland government find their way into the cost of coal.

(6) Heavy expenditures on construction and equipment augment the cost of coal though many of them are long overdue and are not entitled to appear in recent costs at all. If the money of the coal company had not been spent in other directions, there would be adequate funds for all the necessary requirements of the coal company at the right time, which would mean in itself a great reduction in the cost of producing and marketing the coal. For this condition we are not responsible.

They give an illustration of that, which I shall not read.

(7) Men about Cape Breton draw money from the company's funds and return no perceptible value other than to influence legislative or public opinion in the company's favour, irrespective of merit.

Miners and Steel Workers

(8) The coal sales department of fthe company appears far from satisfactory.

(9) Offices at Montreal and London are carried at unjustifiable expense; and payments made thereat are a heavy burden on coal costs. Further, these offices tend to remove the supervision and control of the industries from Nova Scotia.

(10) We come in contact daily with officials of the Dominion Coal Company receiving high salaries, who, to our own knowledge, contribute little or nothing towards the efficient and profitable production of coal.

(11) If we should ask that all favours be withdrawn from members of the local legislature, and others of public standing, we would receive no satisfaction, or be told none were being given; while we have known some of the recipients by name.

(12) We do not receive true and correct statements of cost from the Company; nor have they throughout our lifetime, which has betn spent in working in the coal mines, done other than continuously to attempt to deceive us regarding expenditures that are responsible for coal costs, and, in a similar fashion they have deceived the members of previous conciliation boards. That is their' settled policy.

Wages Our Only Consideration

We find ourselves, therefore, in the position where we are permitted by the company to deal with no item in regard to coal costs other than the wages of the members of our union. In looking over these, for instance for the past year, we find that an. appalling number of our members have drawn, in actual money, less than one-half of the wage necessary to maintain a decent standard of living as set out in the Labour Gazette.

We find that expensively equipped collieries have worked through the summer months in some instances only six or seven days a month. Other expensive ones are abandon d. The Scotia collieries and steel works have been largely dismantled. We have no confidence whatever in the ability of the president and directors successfully to manage or direct coal operations. We have come to consider the frequent watering of stock which has been going on in this corporation since 1892 as a financial operation that allows of stock market manipulations, but which is detrimental to the economical production of coal, and renders unstable the direction and administration of the industries, according as which group of stock market manipulators secures control. In fact, the financial aspect of the company has come not merely to overshadow, but actually to interfere with the technique of the industry it conducts. We are consulted only in regard to the wage cost and our stand in regard to it is that it is already too low to give our men a decent standard of living. It is now proposed to lower it further to pay for what we consider inefficient direction, unsound financing and poor management. If the corporation desires to indulge in extravagance, incompetence and stock market jobbery, we are apparently unable to prevent it. It does not appear fair, however, that the money wasted in that manner should be made a burden upon the already inadequate wages of our workers.

We have refused to take a out in our wages and a conciliation board has been applied for by the corporation to assist in bringing that out upon us. We do not doubt the sincerity or honesty of purpose of any such board, and we mean no discourtesy to it, but we have been through this experience frequently and the procedure is familiar to us. The board will be confronted with cost sheets and statements that are cither deliberately untrue or which are so misleading as to be valueless. They may even be presented by officials who believe them. The board will be told, and the statement supported by figures,

that we must take a cut or the coal mines cannot mine coal at a profit. We were told that about three times in one year, and each time in regard to a successively higher proposed wage rate, and each time equally untruthfully. And eventually we will be confronted w_ith the batons of the provincial police and the bayonets of the Canadian militia as the final reason for us to accept a cut, when we ask for no more than humane treatment for our workers and their women and children. Many children cannot attend school owing to lack of food and clothing, and whole families face starvation at the present moment.

All the talk about costs of coal, and their introduction for the purpose of lowering wages, presupposes that we are in some measure interested in them. Yet, as we have said, apart from the labour item, which is less than 40 per cent of total cost, we are not only not consulted upon the subject, but we are not given truthful figures in regard to it. "When this corporation so mends its ways and purifies its expenditures that it dare adopt a system of open accounting with us as has been done in parts of the Old Country, we shall meet it at least half-way. But, until that time, we can do no more than fight to maintain the all too miserable standard of living of our members and their families, and we have to conduct that fight in the face of the opposition of the press, the provincial and Dominion governments and the public at large, all of whom are forced to misjudge us by the false propaganda of this corporation.

One more paragraph relating to the corporation's propaganda standard of honesty:

About a year ago some officials of this company testified before a royal commission that no spy system was maintained by the company; while for several weeks, one of the weekly papers has been printing columns of the actual spy reports, with names and dates covering a period of several years, showing we are subject to espionage in our locals, at our work and in our homes. Yet whoever criticizes this corporation is termed " Red " and he must walk with great circumspection to avoid the jails of our country and the batons of provincial police; and false reports concerning our actions, the wages we receive, and the conditions of our employment are sent broadcast throughout the world without the slightest possibility of our ever overtaking these calumnies, or of our obtaining a fair hearing.

Mr. Speaker, it was an appeal of that kind that led me to decide to make this presentation in the House. I felt that I should do my utmost to give the men's side of the case to the public; and I felt also that if it was given a fair hearing we might at least hope that the government of this country would take some action in the way of setting on foot an inquiry which would finally determine whether there was any ground for such statements as the men are making, and, if not, what was the real reason for the continued industrial disturbance in this province. .

It seems as though there is little more to be said. I am not here to make a speech; I am here simply to present a case, and I have confined myself almost exclusively to reading these documents. Evidently the men feel that they are not understood, and are opposed' by almost all in authority. The latest report to the government was that there was no hope whatever of putting the

Miners and Steel Workers

industry in Nova Scotia on a proper basis until there was some sort of mutual understanding. I am sure that all members of the House will agree that individually these men are absolutely helpless. We are facing a situation which cannot be solved! by individuals; I am not quite sure whether it can be solved by the corporation itself. It does seem as if the highest legislative body in the land, this parliament, is the body that ought to consider a matter of this kind, and I urge that action be taken, first of all to see that no Canadian child suffers, and secondly that we know the facts in the case.

Hon. JAMES MURDOCK (Minister of Labour):

Mr. Speaker, I feel sure that I voice the sympathy and regret that every hon. member feels that it should! be possible in Canada for an hon. gentleman to arise in parliament and refer to the conditions existing at Sydney, Nova Scotia, which the hon. member for Centre Winnipeg (Mr. Woods-worth) has just recited. I have followed carefully all that he has said in regard to the conditions of distress existing among the mine workers at Sydney, Sydney Mines and other places in that vicinity. I do not believe that he has exaggerated in any particular the actual conditions of distress that have been in evidence in that locality during the past few months-yes, during altogether too many years. For more than twenty years there has been industrial unrest, never settled, in Cape Breton. There has been conflict between the employers and the United Mine Workers' organization, representative of the employees, and', before that came into existence, other organizations representing the employees; and still it seems as though it has never been possible to settle satisfactorily the conditions under which the men work in the mines and in the steel mills of Cape Breton.

The hon. gentleman referred to telegrams, as I understood, which he had received from Sydney Mines as to the distress existing there. I want to assure him that the Labour Department, as well as ministers of the present government, have received! recently, yes for the past two or three years, similar intimations of distress existing and similar requests for assistance. If it were possible, having regard to the trusteeship which members of this House owe to those who elected

4 p.m. them to sit in parliament, for this government and this parliament to deal in a consistent and proper way with the conditions to which my hon. friend refers, I would hope to be the loudest one in clamouring to assist him in dealing now, once and for all, with some of these conditions, and 30

in wiping them out of sight forever. But the facts are that there is another government having distinct and definite autonomy, having exclusive jurisdiction over certain conditions which are in evidence in Nova Scotia relative to the company and! the employees of the company which we are considering here to-day. Nova Scotia as a province owns the coal mines of that province; Nova Scotia as a province leases those coal mines; Nova Scotia as a province in the past several years has received in royalties on coal mined the following sums:

>918 $586,036 32>919

557,456 021920, including royalty on salt .. .. 608,364 51>921

556,385 121922

490.318 261923

671,233 27

I do not desire to cite these figures for the purpose of waving entirely to one side any dictates of humanity that might naturally come to us in a consideration of this matter, and to say that we should not give sympathetic, yes or other proper consideration to any claims made; but I do with all respect say that here is involved, and has been for many years past, a situation that the province of Nova Scotia, having exclusive authority to deal with it, should have dealt with or should1 now deal with, rather than that my hon. friend from Centre Winnipeg (Mr. Woodsworth) should rise here in this parliament and ask us to go outside of our authority to take cognizance of it, and if necessary take drastic steps for the purpose of relieving a situation over which we have no direct or proper control. I would that it were otherwise, blit if we are to be consistent, I think we must recognize the actual facts.

Let me now go for a moment into what has been the habit down in Nova Scotia. I do not for a moment suggest that it is inspired, but it has been the habit just the same. The habit has been to always try and see what could be secured from the federal government.

Mr. HANSON:

Oh, oh.

Mr. MURDOCK:

My hon. friend from York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson) laughs, but those are the facts, and the records will disclose that when the former government, which he supported, was in power the same condition existed. While we are talking about that habit, let us here and now intimate that another concern, a part of the same corporation, the steel part of it, has received in the years gone by ninety millions of dollars of money out of the federal treasury in one way or another. I think that pretty nearly constitutes a habit of assistance from the federal

Miners and Steel Workers

government. And during that time men, women and children were suffering under conditions of hardship which all too often they did not deserve under the British flag and in this Canada of ours.

That was just merely an aside, on account of the sarcastic laugh of my hon. friend from York-Sunbury (Mr. Hanson).

On December 5 last, we received a letter from the town clerk of Sydney Mines which stated:

At a meeting held in the council room, town of Sydney Mines, the town clerk was authorized by vote to make application to the federal and provincial governments for aid to assist the town to give relief to the poor and distressed cases. This meeting was presided over by the poor committee of this town. All the churches had by pulpit notices invited their people to be present at this meeting and to assist by sending in clothing and eatables. Some relief has already been given. The meeting asked that the amounts asked for would be as follows: Federal government, $5,000; Provincial government, $2,500; Town of Sydney Mines, $2,500.

The immediate poor and distressed are the dependents of men who have been out of employment for a long time.

Your favourable consideration is solicited.

More recently, or on the 17th day of this month, we received a telegram from Glace Bay reading:

Destitution here account of idle mines, 2,000 employees and their dependents on verge of starvation; mass meeting of citizens demanded to know why no work; McCann held out no hope to relieve distress unless the Canadian National Railways, largest consumers, gave orders to buy banked coal; citizens implore order to relieve present distress.

M. T. Sullivan, Chairman.

A. M. Macleod, Secretary.

This telegram was replied to in a letter of February 18 in part as follows:

As you know the province of Nova Scotia owns the coal mines and secures a royalty on every ton of coal mined while the province has exclusive jurisdiction over questions affecting property and civil rights within the province, and it would therefore appear that your representations should be made to your provincial government in so far as the relief of distress growing out of unemployment is concerned.

Noting your reference to the C.N.R. giving orders for and banking coal, would advise that while I shall be glad to transmit your message to the Minister of Railways, you, I am sure, must be awere that the Canadian National Railways are operated {independently of government interference in any way, and we could therefore use no more pressure on the Canadian National Railway in this matter than we would feel disposed to use in the case of the Canadian Pacific Railway.

A number of telegrams and letters have come from time to time trying to impress upon the government or ministers of the government the necessity of compelling the Canadian National Railways to buy more coal than they say they need and to bank that coal for future use. The railways have taken the position that they do not desire to use banked coal in many cases, and that

it is not necessary to use banked coal which deteriorates, and as a matter of fact at some of the coal mines, at least two of them at Sydney Mines, my understanding is that the coal could not be banked in any case, and that the only time those mines can work is when there are orders for the product and it can be shipped directly to the buyer.

Now the reason that I am reciting these facts is to show that we have had this contention that my hon. friend has brought before us to-day, yesterday, and for many months past and even during the past two or three years; I do not think that it is any exaggeration to say that it has been to a greater or less extent before the federal government for the past twenty years.

Let us look for a moment at the figures of employment down there, which I want to assure my hon. friend do not appear to be very much worse right now, so far as the operation of the mines is concerned, than they have been during the past year. During the year past the mines have not worked anything like continuous time, and as a matter of fact the average time, according to my advice, that miners work in Nova Scotia is from 173 days a year to 202 days a year. If they can work 202 days a year, my advice is, they think they have had a fair amount of work, and they think they have been pretty well taken care of. Personally I do not believe many hon. members of this House would think they were in very good shape as workmen if they were permitted to work for only 173 or 202 days a year. But the working days have not been even that good during the past year. We find that the Dominion mines at Glace Bay, for the week ending February 14, worked 671 days. That is 6,117 employees in 12 mines worked 671 days for the week; that is almost full time-a little better than five days' work per week per man while over ait Sydney Mines two collieries with a working force of 2,106 employees only worked 51 days which would amount to less than three days' work per week per man; and in other mines the conditions have not at times been that good. When the miner's committee and the various coal companies decided on December 31 last that they could not reach an agreement on a new wage scale, they did agree that the present wage rate would continue until the board of investigation had investigated the then existing situation and had filed its report. The company on their part agreed to work all the mines for which they could get orders, and so far as the department is aware that has been done. The men have worked all the days when there were orders

Miners and Steel Workers

for the mines to fill, but that has not been sufficient to give full time either during the period that has elapsed since January 1 last, or for many months prior to that time. The conditions, so far as I know, are almost identically the same now as they have been for many months past. And so, Mr. Speaker, it is popular for certain individual labouring men, their wives and their families, not only in Nova Scotia but in Alberta, in British Columbia, and in other provinces, whenever they are in distress or want, whenever they think that something should be done and that something must be done to alleviate certain conditions of which they complain, to make a claim on the federal treasury, to make a demand that the federal government come to their assistance and provide the wherewithal with which to change their existing situation.

Mr. MARTELL:

Will the hon. gentleman

permit me a question? Had not the miners of Cape Breton, apart from the steel workers, the majority of whom are native-born Cape Bretoners, as much right to come to this government and demand that they be protected and that things be done for them as the people of the west have to demand that we give them the Crowsnest pass rates at the expense of the rest of the Dominion?

Mr. MURDOCK:

I think it has been said that every British subject has a right to approach the foot, of the throne, and they have hardly got there when they have come to this parliament. The point that is here involved is whether, having regard to the individual citizen or a body of citizens in any province of the Dominion,-whether they be farmers in destitution in some part of Alberta or Saskatchewan, or lumberjacks in hard luck in some part of British Columbia, or miners down in the Kootenay district or elsewhere in distress,-it is consistent and proper that this federal government should undertake to vote money in order to take care of the situation that may be complained of.

Before closing, I want to say just one word about the proposals for arbitration that were set forth by the Winfield board. As the hon. member for Centre Winnipeg (Mr. Woods-worth) has said, the miners indicated about January 1 that they would not have anything to do with a board of investigation; that they had no confidence in the company's request for a board, and that they had no confidence in the intention of the company after the award of the board had been filed. They have maintained that position very consistently and respectfully from that date to this. In my judgment they were justified in taking and 30i

maintaining that position, for the simple reason that their experience has been that investigations by boards supposed to make inquiries into questions affecting their conditions have never been what they should be, nor as definite, deep and searching as they should be to get at the truth and the facts involved. The Winfield board on 9th February arrived at what was a unanimous expression of opinion. And the House will please follow me by recalling that when this board was asked for, no decision had been rendered that the federal government had no right to appoint this board; that decision, which came later, on the 20th day of January, made the action that had been previously taken indefinite as to the final result. But we went ahead and the board agreed to function in order to see what could be done. Later, on February 9, it expressed the unanimous opinion indicating what, in its judgment, should be done in the matter of further investigation.