Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

It is only another evidence of the manner in which one whose mind is sufficiently contracted by isms will approach the discussion of subjects of this kind-no consideration for the rights of a fellow man; no consideration for the rights of labour or for the national pay-roll. The whole truth of the matter is that the free trader, brought up and nourished on isms, is awfully solicitous about the workman who may have to pay twenty-five cents here or twenty-five cents there more than he thinks that workman ought to have to pay for a necessity of life, he is awfully anxious about that; but he does not care a snap of his finger for this problem: Where is the working man going to buy anything, even in the cheapest market, without wages? That is never thought of at all. Here is one of the reasons why living is so dear in England, and everybody knows it. Following out that principle of "never mind about employment," we see that labour that is fortunate enough to function to-day has strapped to its back the burden of 1,200,000 workers who unfortunately cannot find employment. There is the fruit of free trade. Go across the channel; just take the short trip to France and see what we find. Who will say that the land of the Mother Country is not good land? Who will say that her workers are not efficient? Who will say that her bankers are not capable? Who will say that her manufacturers, with their wits sharpened by "free trade, free trade, free trade," are not competent? Well, just take the little twenty mile trip to France and see the difference. On the one hand, doles, unemployment, want, plus a high cost of living; on the other hand, employment, plenty of it. Why, following the Armistice, and down to the first of January, 1924, France has received, provided with work and assimilated one and a half million immigrants. When I was there last summer she was receiving workers at the rate of 6.000 a week and there was still a lack of labour in the mines and for agriculture.

Mr. GOOD:

Does my hon. friend attribute this wholly to tariff differences between the two countries?

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

It is the only thing I can see any difference in, except, of course, that taxation is lighter in France.

1564 COMMONS

The Budget-Sir Henry Drayton

Mr. EVANS:

May I ask a question there? How is France paying her national debt as compared with Britain?

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

We all know

what the situation there is. She is not paying it.

Mr. McMASTER:

If I did not pay my

debts I would have lots of money to spend.

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

I wonder-

Mr. SPEAKER:

If the hon. member who has the floor invites interruptions and is willing to answer any questions put, there is no

objection, but such a practice may degenerate into an abuse. It seems to me that when an hon. member is addressing the House he should be given a free hand.

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

So far as I am concerned, Mr. Speaker, I assure you, I rather welcome the interruptions. I do not mind them in the slightest, but I bow entirely to your wise direction. Perhaps we have been having a little too much, but would you allow me to refer to the last interruption of the hon. member for Brome (Mr. McMaster). That hon. gentleman says he would have lots of money if he did not pay his debts. I wonder if the hon. gentleman really believes that France deserves that gibe?

Mr. McMASTER:

I rise to a point of

order. I implied nothing derogatory to France. I was endeavouring, perhaps improperly, by interjection to meet an argument which I thought was unsound. I am not going to interrupt again.

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

My hon. friend says nothing derogatory to France? What else were we talking about? If there be any sense in his remarks, it meant this surely: "If I do not pay my debts I will have money" was a reflection upon the country we were talking about as not paying her debts. Yes, it meant that, or it meant nothing. I would just like hon. gentlemen to attempt to visualize for one minute the position of France, and see What that wonderful country, the cockpit of the war, has done. Her forests and best countryside decimated and tom;

863,000 dwellings and erections of different kinds destroyed; 200 coal mines destroyed; 39 iron mines put out of business; the very soil so twisted and tortured as to be useless for agriculture; trees, disappeared, nothing left. Gentlemen talk about France's financial position. Why, what would they have? France over and above what every other country in the world suffered as a result of the war, over and above her tremendous war

debts, over and above her tremendous losses, had a devastated countryside which represented a tremendous percentage of her whole production, the percentage running into staggering figures. What was she to do? What did it amount to? Over and above all other losses, there were claims of 130 billions of francs filed. Those claims were cut down. There were miles and miles of railway and railway bridges destroyed; highways and highway bridges, canals, locks, and the like, all gone. The material damage of public property, irrespective of churches and municipal buildings, that has been made good by France for public services alone on the 1st of January, 1924, was 20 billions of francs. Yes, and there was also paid at that time approximately 56 billions of francs for the restoration of all this property that was destroyed. I wonder how hon. gentlemen think that can be done? I wonder if that is a situation in which it is fair to say to France, "If you do not pay your debts, you will have lots of money." Why, France is out all that. It is a special charge against her, and she has to restore that damage before she can do anything.

Mr. IRVINE:

I would ask, just for information, whether the hon. member knows if France deflated to the same extent as Great Britain, and if he thinks that would have any effect on the relative positions of the two countries.

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

The hon. gentleman is quite right. France could not deflate. France was put in this position, that she had to find the money to cover that enormous sum, and she has found the money to cover that enormous sum. It means a tremendous added financial burden thrown on the country. What was the first thing to be done under the treaty? France was to have her damages for destroyed property paid to her. She never got them. France making up her mind that she 'would again function, has spent all her money in reparations, and I wonder if any hon. gentleman honestly thinks that at the present time it would be decent, in view of the tremendous financial sacrifices thrown on France by reason of her special damages, to ask her, Why have you not started paying? But the hon. gentleman has carried me far from what I intended to say.

I am now going to give hon. gentlemen a few figures as to French tariffs, so that there will be no doubt as to what in France at least was thought to be the duty of the government to the French worker. There are two schedules in France; there is the minimum and the general tariff. I am going to

The Budget-Sir Henry Drayton

give the increases in the present minimum and general tariffs of France over the tariffs of 1913. These percentages which are worked out bring into them the coefficients which form part of the French system of customs

taxation: Increase in Increase in

Minimum General

Tariff Tariff

Article per cent per cent

Finished aluminium 700

Fine steel for tools

160 600Iron and steel wire.. .. .... 300 900Locomotive crank axles.. .. .. 700 2,000Prepared dyes (increases varying from)

300 500650 1,400Crude celluloid 900Ordinary window glass.. .... 400 1,200Linen yarns

400 1,200Cotton yarns 1,100Woollen piece goods.. .. .... 300 1,000Vehicles for commerce, agri- culture and cartage.. .. .... 500 1,500These increases, Mr. Speaker, can be looked upon as very fairly characteristic. France

maintains a very stringent policy of protection, and she does not stop with her customs tariff, in that policy of protection. She uses embargoes. She would be horrified with our pulp situation for example, and with our asbestos situation. She either has an absolute embargo, or export taxes on hides and leather, wool, cotton, iron and steel scrap, copper and brass scrap, coal and coke, patent fuel, unworked fur skins and common woods. The whole idea is that France wants to get the additional pay roll which the fabrication of these commodities means to her if they are held in the country.

How has the plan worked? Look at the figures; look at the statistics showing the progress she is making; look at the great market France is working up for herself and the buying power of this market is measured by the number of workmen that have constant-employment there in turning out their goods which she supplies. Take cotton piece goods. Hon. gentlemen know what a tremendous lead Great Britain has with respect to cotton. Well, France's importation of cotton piece goods which amounted to 240,000 quintals in 1919 dropped to 29,000 quintals in 1923, a reduction of 87 per cent.

Are her manufacturers being crippled, are they becoming inefficient, are they failing to meet the competition of the outside world, are they shackled by protection so that they *cannot meet the costs of manufacturers in free trade England? Let hon. gentlemen consider these figures: Her exports to Great

Britain in 1919 amounted to. 2,116,000,000 francs, and in 1923 the total had grown to 6,155,000,000 francs. France sold Great

Britain 14,000,000 francs worth of woollen goods in 1919, and in 1923 her sales of these goods amounted to 352,000,000 francs. Her export of automobiles grew from 12,000,000 to 165,000,000; her export of linen drapery from 101,000,000 to 760,000,000; of cotton goods from 30,000,000 to 109,000,000; and of wool and wool worsted from 24,000,000 to 92,000,000; of copper from 8,000,000 to 71,000,000; and-just imagine this, Mr. Speaker-her exportation of pig iron, steel and iron from 8,000,000 to 196,000,000 francs.

Mr. McMASTER:

What was the value of the franc in 1919 and in 1923?

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

There have been fluctuations from time to time.

Mr. McMASTER:

What was it in 1923?

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

If my hon.

friend is not satisfied with -the figures in francs I will give him the figures in weights. It makes no difference whether our yard stick is in francs or weights; French trade is advancing by leaps and bounds in spite of every single free trade theory in the world. Let me now give some figures in weights.

Mr. ROBB:

I do not like to disturb my

hon. friend in his argument but will he tell us what Great Britain did with the extra quantity of goods which she imported?

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

Every single

million dollars worth of imports into England added just so many more English workmen fo the throng of unemployed. You cannot at one and the same time support workmen in a foreign country and workmen in your own country. That is one of the elementary lessons I wish I could impress upon my hon. friend.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

He sees it all right.