March 27, 1925

LIB

William F. Carroll

Liberal

Mr. CARROLL:

That is correct. Out of

15,000,000 tons of bituminous coal imported into this country, something over 3,500,000 was slack coal. If we .get some of that slack coal into the province of Quebec and further west there will be a better market for it than there was last year. That is another reason why I support this change in the tariff. I support it also for the reason I intimated in an answer to the hon. minister the other day. I not only supported it, but I went to the government with two delegations from Nova Scotia in support of the proposition. If this thing works out as I think it will, we will have in Montreal a market for anywhere between 700,000 and 1,000,000 tons of slack coal .more than we had last year. I support it also because it will give more work to the miners of Nova Scotia, and furthermore it means that we will be living up to what this government proceeded to do when they came down with their first coal policy in 1903, because it is a broad Canadian coal and fuel policy.

I mlight go on and develop the situation with regard to the announicement made the other night by the Minister of Mines in connection with coke ovens, but I do not know that the time is opportune and I will leave that until the bill comes down. What will be the result? |Miay I read an article from the Ottawa Citizen? The gentleman who writes the editorials for this paper is a great admirer of mine. May I point out what the Premier of Nova Scotia Ithinks off this increased duty on slack coal? He has been for many yeans Minister of Mines of that province, and in a statement published in the Citizen of March 15, this appears:

Premier E. H. Armstrong, for many years minister of mines in the Nova Scotia government, in a statement issued this afternoon, interpreted the Change in the tariff to mean a direct saving to the Nova Scotia operator, competing in the St. Lawrence market cf thirty-six cents per ton in the selling price of his pioduct. It has been estimated that the ten per cent wage cut proposed by the British Empire Steel Corporation would effect a saving of twenty-two cents per ton in the selling price of coal. This is taken to mean, by close observers of the situation, that under the new tariff the British Empire Steel Corporation can afford to pay the 1924 wage scale, and at the same time enjoy a fourteen cents per ton advantage over the selling price they hoped to effect by reducing the wage scale by ten per cent.

Moreover Premier Armstrong estimated this afternoon that tariff change would enable the Nova Scotia operators to market an additional amount of coal approximating anywhere from three to four hundred thousand tons.

I make the quantity considerably more than that. In this connection the householders of this country iare not affected. As a matter of fact, itheir position is improved because no (householders will use slack coal unless it is a mixture that I have mentioned before. For stove or cooking purposes they must use run of mine icoal unless they are wealthy enough to buy anthracite. Therefore, this does not in any way affedt the householder or the price of bituminous coal. As a matter of fact, it improves that condition by reducing the rate from 53 cents to 50 cents a ton. I wish to read some opinions, and first of all I will read the opinion of the Ottawa Journal in regard to this change in the tariff:

The increase in the duty on slack coal, while expected to greatly increase the market for Maritime coal in eastern Canada as far west as Toronto, will not, it is believed, have any other effect on industrial centres west of Toronto than of greatly increasing the price of American coal it is necessary to import.

This slack coal will be used entirely iby the manufacturers of Ontario, and whereas we are given to-day by this change in the duty an ad valorem duty of 16 per cent, on this coal, we in Nova Scotia and those in the western provinces are paying for goods on which there is a protective tariff of from. 27 to 35 per cent ad valorem, so I think Ontario manufacturers can stand itheir share:

The imposition of the tax is felt to be largely the result of representations by the Canadian Manufacturers' Association and others, who are anxious that Canadian coal fields in the Maritime provinces be fully developed. Nine thousand million tons of bituminous coal lie in the coal fields of the Martimes, but in spite of this huge mass, it is not felt that production there can equal the demand for the coal that the new tax is bound to produce, as the question of supply is largely a matter of the number of mine openings which can be economically operated, and it is generally admitted by experts that the number of openings which can thus be made there is greatly limited.

Maritime coal in Ottawa was practically unknown a year or so ago, the total amount used in the industrial

The Budget-Mr. Carroll

plants of this district a year or so ago being around 14,000 tons

And I may say that this icame entirely from the province of New Brunswick, from the Minto mines:

At present however several of the large industrial plants, notably the E. B. Eddy Company, have been us'ng the Maritime slack coal.

And that became possible through the intervention of this government last year. Last year the Eddy company took from the province of Nova Scotia somie 40,000 tons of ooal. What do the coal dealers in the city of Ottawa say?

Several local merchants are pleased with the imposition of the new tax. Mr. J. G. Butterworth last night stated that the tax was undoubtedly a good thing, and would work advantageously to the Canadian mines in Nova Scotia. He thought it would go far to rectify the present unsatisfactory conditions existing there through the men in the mines being able to work only part time.

Mr. Napoleon Belanger, of the firm of O'Reilly & Belanger, wras also of the opinion that the tax was a good thing. It was impossible to state at this date just how the American dealers would meet the situation. They might reduce their prices so as to offset the tax. In any event, however, it would be good for the Canadian mines.

These people are dealers, I presume, entirely in fuel for domestic purposes, and slack coal is not such a fuel. I may be told that the Progressive party in the west and the low tariff men of the west will, of necessity, have to live up to their principles by opposing the imposition of this extra duty on slack coal. But I believe the western Progressives are just as broad in their Canadian point of view as are the Bluenoses of Nova Scotia or the corpulent men of Ontario and Quebec. I had serious doubt for some time as to how the operators and the people of western Canada would look on this subject of the putting up of the duty on slack coal to the same point as the duty on round coal. My fears in that respect have been dissipated, because long before the government brought down the budget, we had the views of western operators and the views of western politicians who, I presume, represent public opinion in western Canada. On the 11th February, 1925, the following appeared in the Edmonton Journal as being the policy of Mr. Greenfield and the Edmonton government, representing, I believe, public opinion in Alberta in regard to this subject:

The question of the dumping of coal at lake head, and the need for an adjustment of the duty as between slack coal and run of mine coal, is no new one to the government-

He was speaking for the government:

- taid Premier Greenfield to-day, referring to the memorandum of the Edmonton Board of Trade now

being drawn up by the coal section of that body. As a matter of fact, proceeded the premier, we have for the past eighteen months been taking up this subject with the Department of Customs at Ottawa,-

That is as long as I have been taking it up.

-and I have good reason to believe that ere long the duty on coal will be adjusted so that slack coal will pay the same duty as run of mine coal, thus preventing the separation of the two grades at Duluth,-

Tlieir troubles are at Duluth; ours are farther east.

-shipping in the slack separately under the low duty, then re-mixing at Winnipeg and selling the mixture once again as run of mine coal.

The very proposition we have had to contend with in the Maritime provinces. He goes on:

Referring to the Anti-Dumping Act, Premier Greenfield said that in his opinion this should be made the same as the United States act, with the valuation for duty purposes made at point of production, instead of at the point of direct export. The Alberta government, he added, would continue to press for this concession also until it was secured.

I have not looked into the details of the revision so far as the anti-dumping clause goes but I think the wishes of Premier Greenfield are being complied with in this respect.

' If we can succeed in these two things," concluded the premier, "we shall have greatly improved the position of Alberta coal in the competitive Winnipeg market. Nova Scotia is also pressing for the same thing as Alberta, and we have every hope of ultimate success."

The Edmonton Board of Trade passed a resolution along similar lines, as did the Board of Trade of Calgary, whose resolution I have not with me, and Premier Greenfield took the matter up. And a week or ten days ago a delegation from Nova Scotia appeared in Ottawa to impress upon the government the necessity of doing exactly what they had done in regard to coal. The government of Alberta has a trade commissioner who is well and favourably known to many of us and he was on his way east when the Nova Scotia delegation was on the way to Ottawa. They got in touch with him to ascertain his views and those of the government he represents as trade commissioner, and a telegram came from Premier Greenfield, as follows:

Edmonton, Alberta, March 18, 1925. Howard Stctchbury,

Chateau Laurier,

Ottawa, Ontario.

Replying your wire seventeenth please represent province with Nova Scotia delegation Thursday setting out our view in accordance with letters recently sent to Minister of Customs and Minister of Finance.

These are the very views which the Edmonton Board of Trade expressed in February or January of this year. It is the policy of the

The Budget-Mr. Carroll

Alberta government, who I have no doubt represent public opinion in the

4 p.m. province of Alberta; they are with the people of Nova Scotia in the matter of this duty. Now what about the operators? I have heard it said both in this House and outside-

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PRO

Donald MacBeth Kennedy

Progressive

Mr. KENNEDY (Edmonton):

If I understand the first telegram Which the hon. member read in regard to a statement of Mr. Greenfield's,-

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LIB

William F. Carroll

Liberal

Mr. CARROLL:

It was not a telegram.

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PRO

Donald MacBeth Kennedy

Progressive

Mr. KENNEDY (Edmonton):

It was a

press report, I think. He asked for an equalization of the duty. Is there anything there to show by what means he would seek that equalization?

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LIB

William F. Carroll

Liberal

Mr. CARROLL:

I do not think there is

any secret about it. Mr. Stutchbury happened to arrive here when the Nova Scotia delegates were before the government; I met him that night and we discussed the situation.. He wanted to interview the Prime Minister and other members of the government, and he declared that the desire of those he represented was that the duty on slack coal should be levelled to fifty-three cents a ton. Well, the government has not entirely complied with that request, having fixed the rate at fifty cents. But there is no doubt as to where the government of Alberta stands on this question and if any further documentary proof is needed it is to be found on the files of the Minister of Finance and the Minister of the Interior, which will give evidence as to what is the attitude of the Premier of Alberta.

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PRO

Oliver Robert Gould

Progressive

Mr. GOULD:

It has occurred to me that

it would have been more in keeping with the professed free trade principles of the government of Alberta and of Mr. Greenfield if that gentleman had advocated a reduction of the tax on run of mine down to the level of slack coal.

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LIB

William F. Carroll

Liberal

Mr. CARROLL:

I do not know about that. I do not know whether he has expressed any opinion publicly on that point, but I take it that Mr. Greenfield is an astute man. I had the pleasure of meeting him once, and while I am no judge of human nature I considered him in that light. I presume, therefore, that Mr. Greenfield was in accord with public opinion in the province of Alberta on this subject. My hon. friend shakes bis head; well, I shall leave him to settle the point with the Premier of Alberta.

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CON

Arthur Meighen (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. MEIGHEN:

It looks as if the Progressives were no better than the Libera' party out there.

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LIB

William F. Carroll

Liberal

Mr. CARROLL:

Both of them are very

good. They are working hand in hand so far as this matter is concerned, and I am not referring to the members of this House. The Progressive party in Alberta is certainly cooperating with the Liberal party on the question of coal and I congratulate them; I have no doubt a great amount of good will follow. I was about to say when I was interrupted a moment ago that it has been suggested both in this House and outside that the coal operators of Alberta and British Columbia were opposed to the levelling-up of the duty on slack coal. I am not going to express any opinion held by the operators of Vancouver inland, where there are big mines, but I will give the opinion of the mining operators of the Crowsnest pass as well as the operators in other parts of Alberta. I have here a copy of a telegram sent on March 17, 1925, from Calgary, Alberta, as follows:

Howard Stutchbury,

King Edward Hotel,

Toronto, Ontario.

Answering your wire of fifteenth stating that you are informed western operators opposed to equalization of duty on slack and run of mine bituminous coal, association to-day passed resolution favouring equalization of tariff on slack and mine run imports and favouring also the imposition of a duty on coke and briquettes manufactured from bituminous coal see my wire to Camsell January tw'enty-eighth.

R. M. Young.

I have dealt at some length with this matter because I consider it important and I will now nut. on Hansard the comparative prices of run of mine coal in 1907, 1923 and 1924 to show how the ad valorem duties were affected. In 1907 the import valuation of slack coal was 65 cents a ton; in 1923, $3.63 and in 1924, $2.34. It fell to that extent in 1924 owing to the fact that coal was being dumped into this country at that time by the operators of the United States. And that is one of the grievances which the Premier of Alberta entertained in this matter. The quantity of slack coal imported into this country as compared with run of mine coal has increased tremendously in the last number of years. The import of slack coal from the United States as compared with the whole bulk of bituminous coal increased from 19 per cent to 26 per cent in the period of four years between 1920 and 1924. Here is another reason why somebmg should be done to level up this duty.

Much has been said with regard to immigration into this country and emigration from this country. I do not think that this government or any other government should, use the public funds 'to induce to immigrate to this country the carpet knights or the drawing

The Budget-Mr. Carroll

room dudes of London. Edinburgh, Paris, Vienna, or any other parts of Europe. What they should do, and what I hope they axe doing, by their immigration policy is to bring in the robust European, I care not what nationality he is, who will be willing to go on our farms and into our forests, our fisheries and our mines, and to brave for a year or so the hardships which are natural to those industries; and who will not be discontented or discouraged as to his chances in this country if he does not become a millionaire the first. 3'ear. We should do everything we can to keep our own people in our own country. There are some ways that this government can assist in keeping with us permanently the people we now have here. It-is unfortunate 'that a great many of our best people go to the United States. We are trying to get them back, and many of them are coming hack, but the proportion is not in favour [DOT] of Canada. Part of the trouble in this country is that the colls and the claims and the clamours of our great industrial centres-I mean, more particularly our great ocean ami river ports-have been so strong and so insistent upon this government and other governments, and so much attention is therefore being paid to these larger projects, that the smaller things are sometimes forgotten. Let me suggest a few things which to my mind would 'help to keep our own people within our own borders, at little or no cost to the country.

First of all, 'the Post Office Department can do very much to help make our rural population happier and more contented. They could develop and extend the rural mail delivery far more thau they are doing to-day, and at very little cost. Where personal mail delivery is impossible the government can do a great deal more than they are doing in giving the people of remote rural districts in every province a mail delivery at least once a day, excluding Sunday. That certainly would make for a happier and more contented people. I believe the Agriculture department also can do a great deal towards accomplishing this same end. Lines of communication should be established between, the Agriculture department at Ottawa and all the remoter rural districts. One or two intelligence officers should be appointed by the Department of Agriculture in all such remote rural districts. These officers would receive instructions from the department, by mail, with suggestions as to remedies for many of the difficulties experienced by the farmers in those districts-suggestions as to how they

might do better on their farms; how to conserve their forests; how generally to carry on their work in such a way as to make them happier and more contented. The Department of Marine 'and Fisheries could do very much to help the fishermen, without any great cost, by teaching them how better to prepare their fish for the market.

May I, without in the least desiring to reflect upon previous governments, or upon the present government, illustrate the point I tried to make a few minutes ago when I said that the wants and the claims and the clamours of our great ocean ports were overshadowing everything else 'and perhaps causing the government to forget that we have thousands of males of coast line in Canada which are not 'being properly developed? There is a small fishing hamlet on the southern side of the district which I have the honour to represent. It was settled by French Huguenots and English and Scotch Catholics three years after the founding of Louisburg. They developed little farms there and lived contentedly by farming and fishing. The French engineers of the day, well trained in matters of practical value to the people in this little hamlet, built across the harbour for a distance of some five or six hundred feet a breakwater, I shall call it, which prevented the broad sweep of the Atlantic from destroying the fishermen's boats, fishing gear and so on in the inner harbour. For a hundred and twenty years that breakwater stood and triumphed over the assaults of the Atlantic. For a hundred and twenty years the people of that district made a living by farming and by fishing. They did not become wealthy, but they were happy and contented. Some little maintenance work was done after a hundred and twenty years, but finally in the tremendous storm that swept that country in 1910 the remaining portion of the breakwater was torn away, so that if there was any sign of a breeze from the the sea it was practically impossible for these people to get their fishing boats, of which they had about one hundred and fifty, out to the fishing grounds on the Atlantic. The government of the day were approached in the matter, and it was requested' that an estimate be made of the cost of putting that breastwork into repair. It was estimated that $17,000 would do the work, and the government of the day placed in the estimates in 1911 the sum of $17,000 for that purpose. Well, bigger things eclipsed the needs of the poor fishermen of this hamlet. The reciprocity pact came on; the government went very hurriedly to the country, and a new government came in. Then

The Budget-Mr. Carroll

there wa^the war, during the period of which nothing was done. While the war was on, however, so high was the price of their product that these fishermen could live as well by fishing one day a week as they could when they fished five or six days a week before the war. Nothing .much was said at that time. In 1922, however, I took the matter up with the government, but the answer was, "We have no money. We are trying to reduce expenses. We are retrenching. True, we are spending millions of dollars in bringing in immigrants, but we are retrenching." In 1923-1924 twenty-five families whose fathers and grandfathers and1 great-grandfathers had been the best citizens of Nova Scotia were obliged under the stress of circumstances I have related to pick up their beds and whatever they had and betake themselves to the fishing grounds of Gloucester and other parts of the United States. We are spending millions of dollars to bring in immigrants, but not a thousand dollars to prevent immigrants from going out. I am not criticizing the government in respect to this matter, nor am I criticizing former governments who refused to take action in this respect, but I am giving this note of warning that the needs and necessities of the small places in this country must not be overshadowed by the great things for which people in other parts of the country are asking.

We hear doleful tales of the present condition of Canada. We hear that the public debt is so great it is going to ruin us, that we will not be able to meet it. The public debt is well over two billions of dollars, an enormous amount, but, Mr. Speaker, if I owed two billions of dollars, and ih'ad assets of untold value mounting into the billions and billions of dollars, I would think I was fairly well off. Have we got the assets that this debt of two billions olf dollars represents? Yes we have the assets, and our only lost assets are represented by the debt that was accumulated during the war, but I do not think any man in this House or in this country will say that the money we spent during the war, and the debt we 'thereby accumulated, wias wrongly spent. Yes, we have a large debt, (but our .assets are enormous. Our imports are less than our exports, we are selling more than we are using, we have a surplus in that direction. I think that does not forbo.de disaster for this country, I think it shows that so far as trade is concerned, this country is .in a healthy condition. And in that regard, Mr. Speaker, may I give the opinion of an English economist and expert in trade matters:

Winnipeg, March 23, 1925. "I am confident the world is on the verge of the greatest expansion of trade ever seen, and in this movement towards prosperity Canada lias obtained a running start,"

Those are the words olf Sir George Paish. He says further:

I anticipate higher prices for Canadian wheat over considerable period of years. Canada is ready now to increase her production greatly. The railways are there. All there is needed is farmers to till the soil, and these should be easy to get.

That- is the opinion of .a gentleman whom I personally do not know, but whom the Winnipeg F-ree Press designates as a well-known British economist.

I was somewhat surprised Itkat .even on this sale of the House, in the miidst even of .the Liberal party, we have same people who are beginning to develop a tone of pessimism. Last night the hon. member for Kings (Mr. Hughes) in addressing this House in a very able speech suggested that the word "secession " was becoming more commonly heard in this country, and that the sentiment in favour of secession was becoming more pronounced in the Maritime provinces. Mr. Speaker, I come from the Maritime .provinces, I am a Maritime province man, and il would ask: What have we got to gain by secession? WThat have we got t-o lose iby secession? If there is any person either in the Mlaritime provinces or elsewhere who will show me that we are going to be winners iby secession, I am not so hopeless in my way of thinking but that he might convert me. But I say, Mr. Speaker, we would be ten thousand times worse off than we are to-day in every one of the Maritime provinces.

M.y hon. friend from Kings says that we have no market in central Canada for our fish, that only two and a half per cent of our oatoh is marketed in central Canada. That may be true to-day, .but that very condition is due to the war. Before the war, our railways carried fish from Cape Breton, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick in well-equipped refrigerator cars, and we developed a wonderful market in central Canada for our fish. When the war came, those cars were taken off. The service was resumed two years ago under the present management of the railways, and I am willing to assert that inside of two years, if this refrigerator car service is developed, we shall not have only two and a half per cent of that market in central Canada, but we shall get the great bulk of it.

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LIB

James Joseph Hughes

Liberal

Mr. HUGHES:

We have the great bulk of it now.

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LIB

William F. Carroll

Liberal

Mr. CARROLL:

No, you have not.

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LIB

James Joseph Hughes

Liberal

Mr. HUGHES:

Oh yes, I have it from

wholesale men in Montreal. Further, it is four and a half, not two and a half per cent. The wholesale men in Montreal tell me that less than one per cent of their fish comes from the United States.

Mr. CARROLL: Let me tell my hon.friend that Montreal does not comprise central Canada. He forgets that fact. Is his idea of the geographical situation of this country so limited that he immediately jumps to the conclusion that Montreal is central Canada?

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LIB

James Joseph Hughes

Liberal

Mr. HUGHES:

Oh, no.

Mr. CARROLL: Let me tell my hon.friend that I have letters from people in

Toronto, Hamilton, Guelph and several other cities in Ontario, telling me they require more fish and are not able to get it under the present freight rates that have existed during and since the war. I was surprised that my hon. friend from Kings should make those remarks.

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LIB

James Joseph Hughes

Liberal

Mr. HUGHES:

The freight rates now on

fish from Nova Scotia are very favourable.

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LIB

William F. Carroll

Liberal

Mr. CARROLL:

Absolutely. But when did they become favourable? Can you establish a market in a year? We lost that market during the war. My hon. friend is like some other people in this country, who wish to become millionaires overnight. We are not capable of regaining that market in a year or two. It took eleven years to establish that market prior to the war, and it will take us ten years to re-establish it.

Let me say further with regard to this talk of secession, that in 1867 when Nova Scotia and New Brunswick joined confederation we had in Nova Scotia 330,000 of a population, and in New Brunswick 252,000, and for one hundred and twenty years those provinces had been established.

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PRO

Robert Forke

Progressive

Mr. FORKE:

If I may be allowed to impinge upon the debate for a moment, I would inform my hon. friend that Manitoba exports fish to St. Paul, Minneapolis and Chicago. I think we export more fish than the province of Nova Scotia. That may seem strange to my hon. friend from the Maritime provinces.

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LIB

William F. Carroll

Liberal

Mr. CARROLL:

I am not surprised, then,

that my friends in Minneapolis and other sections are so weak in brain power if they have to live on whitefish. In our part of the country we get the real stuff. I do not want to be discourteous to my hon. friend but I want to point out to him that I am not talking about duties at all; I am talking

about freight rates and the available markets so far as Nova Scotia is concerned.

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PRO

Robert Forke

Progressive

Mr. FORKE:

I had no idea of finding fault with my hon. friend, I wanted to give him information so as to disabuse his mind of the idea that we do not grow anything but wheat out on the prairies.

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LIB

William F. Carroll

Liberal

Mr. CARROLL:

Oh, I know. I have

caught a few fish out in Saskatchewan and Manitoba and was caught as a fish out there myself too, but by gentlemen of a calibre different from that of the hon. member for Brandon.

I was saying, Mr. Speaker, that we are not in a hopeless mood in the Maritime provinces. In 1867 Nova Scotia had a population of 330,000 and New Brunswick had a population of 252,000. That was our population in those provinces after the lapse of one hundred and twenty years. In the next fifty years the population of Nova Scotia was increased to 523,827 and the population of New Brunswick, I think, to 387,860. In other words in fifty years Nova Scotia increased its population by 59 per cent, while New Brunswick increased its population by 54 per cent. Down there we are sometimes faced with serious problems as the people of other parts of Can-ade are. Nevertheless speaking as a Nova Scotian I want to see the great bulk of our population happy and contented. And they are going to be happy and contented. I do not believe you can find any fair-minded, thinking man in the province of Nova Scotia to-day who will see in secession any brighter days for that province than we have enjoyed and are still going to enjoy under confederation. The papers some time ago spoke of the hon. member for Springfield (Mr. Hoey) as a secessionist, which simply goes to show that when the public journals get an idea they broadcast it very freely irrespective in some instances, of whether it is right or wrong. The hon. member for Springfield is no more of a secessionist than I am. He is a broadminded Canadian, a gentleman who has come to our shores and who has made good and will continue to make good. Speaking as a Canadian we invite millions of men of the mental and* physical capacity of the hon. member to our shores.

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PRO

Robert Forke

Progressive

Mr. FORKE:

Hear, hear. You cannot get them, they are not made.

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March 27, 1925