April 3, 1925

CON

Alexandre Joseph Doucet

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOUCET:

The hon. member for

Chambly-Vercheres knows I am always fair.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
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LIB

Joseph Archambault

Liberal

Mr. ARCHAMBAULT:

I know that, but

I want you to continue to be fair.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
CON

Alexandre Joseph Doucet

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. DOUCET:

When I state that the

American railways are making application to Washington for authority to reduce the transportation rates on coal I state what is contained in the press reports, and therefore I am on pretty safe ground. Not only is the coal industry in the Maritime provinces suffering from the budget reductions of last year, but the steel industry has practically ' been put out of business for a period of eight months. In proof of that statement I need only quote from the monthly report of the production of iron and steel in Canada issued in January, 1925, and published by authority of Hon. Thomas A. Low, Minister of Trade and Commerce-surely that should be sufficient authority for the statement. In that report I read that the production of iron- basic, foundry and malleable-in blast furnaces in Canada in .the year 1923 was over

880,000 tons; in the year 1924 the production was 593,024 tons of iron. The total steel ingots and steel castings production for 1923 was 884,770 and for the year 1924 it was 650,690 tons. This will give the House an idea of the reduction of production in the steel industry of this Dominion, which reduction was practically all in that section of the steel works of Sydney. There are fifteen blast furnaces in Canada, and in the month

of January there were three of them in operation. This statement is prepared by the Statistical branch of the Department of Trade and Commerce. In resuming, speaking of the United States trade, this report says:

In the United States the month of January showed the greatest production since March, 1924, and marked an increase of about twelve per cent over December, which in turn showed an increase over November of fourteen per cent. The average daily production was 108,621 tons, an increase of 13,082 tons per day over December. For the third consecutive month the net gain in active furnaces was twenty-three-

That is twenty-three new furnaces went into operation in the United States-

-making a total of one hundred and seven new furnaces blown in since-

Mark the words-

-since the upward trend started in July last.

Just corresponding with the date that the reductions in the customs duties were made applicable to the semi-finished products of iron and steel coming from the steel plants of the United States.

I do not intend to delay the House this afternoon in connection with the railways, but I see that there has been a reduction of 5,938 railway employees between the years 1923 and 1924. Those are figures given by returns to the House, as hon. gentlemen will find in Hansard of this year, page 1288. I should like to ask the Minister of Railways how many of those were officials. I suppose he would answer that it is not in the public interest of the railways to give that information. Every time in the last two sessions that we have asked for information in connection with officials, knowing as we did that they are constantly adding high-salaried officials to the staff of the Canadian National Railways while at the same time decreasing the number of employees among those who were in overalls, we have been met with the answer that it is not in the public interest that that information be given to the country. Why not? Do the government or the railways fear that if they give the salary of one man as 125,000 the Canadian Pacific Railway or the American railways would come in and try to 4 p.m. get him, at an increase in salary?

I doubt if any American railways would dream of offering any increase in the present salaries of the officials, because they are getting the highest salaries going. Were I to speak further on the railway question as it affects the Maritime provinces, I would only have to quote a speech made in this House in the dying days of the session of 1921, which hon. members will find at page 4561 of the revised Hansard, when the hon.

The Budget-Mr. Doucet

member for Westmoreland (Mr. Copp), the present Secretary of State, spoke and covered some few pages of Hansard, dealing with conditions of the railways in the Maritime provinces, and after having quoted those remarks I would say "amen," and would state that every word uttered by him was applicable today. My hon. friend is a member of the government to-day. Why can he not have those grievances remedied? In those days he spoke loudly and at length from every housetop, I might say, stating that the best men were taken away from the city of Moncton and transported to Toronto. It is true that in those days a few officials or heads of departments were transferred from Moncton to Toronto, at an increase of salary. They were being given a promotion, and while we regretted that they sent some of our best talent to Toronto, we gloried in the fact that our loss was their gain, and that while they were leaving the Maritimes, they were going to a place where they were getting larger and better remuneration. What do we find to-day? In the spring of 1923 the present board removed from Moncton 450 odd families of men receiving from $95 to $130 a month. They were packed1 up bag and baggage and sent to the city of Montreal on the plea of economy, with what result? Men who had their homes in the city of Moncton, and who had everything that was near and dear to them in the Maritime provinces had to go to Montreal or hand in their resignation or be dismissed. With what result? They had hardly been there five weeks when the reclassification of office employees in those offices was made, and men who had left headquarters at Moncton in the Maritime provinces where they were receiving a salary of $130 a month, are working to-day for $95 a month or a reduction of about $35 a month. Those are the conditions put into effect by the new railway board. Some of them did not accept the reclassification, left the railway and are pursuing other occupations in the Maritime provinces and some in the territory to the south of us.

During the course of this debate it has been stated that a large population has been immigrating to this country from the country to the south of us. I have statistics which I have taken from the Veteran, from an article headed " Bread and butter versus patriotism ". I do not propose to read this article, but I want to quote figures taken from reliable sources to show that while the total immigration from European countries and the United States in the eight months ending August 31, 1924 was 100,599, during the same

period, according to United States figures, 115,042 Canadians left this country to go to the country to the south of us. We have Canadian figures which show that 23,861 Canadians, in five months, April, May, June, July and August, returned from the United States to live in this country. What do the American figures show. Instead of 23,861, we find the American figures are 1,128, and those figures, Mr. Speaker, are pretty nearly correct. There is not a member in this House who knows of any large influx of people from the United States; and the great majority, unfortunately, of those who have come back are men who were compelled to come back, and who are back in this country in a worse condition to-day than they were when they left Canada three or four years ago. They left the country within the last three years after selling all their household goods, their farming implements and their live stock and they went to the United States to spend those proceeds along with the earnings they made in that country; and1 now they are returning to us to-day in a poorer condition financially than' when they left. Fortunately, the number is not as large as the statistics of this department show.

Before I conclude I have a few words to say regarding the conditions that exist to-day iD the mining sections of eastern Nova Scotia and I believe I have laid the groundwork for a satisfactory discussion of this question. Indeed1, I am no stranger to that part of the country. The 'hon. member for Southeast Grey (Miss Macphail) was chastised in this House because as 'an outsider she went down to the province of Nova Scotia and after an investigation dared to report conditions as she found them there. I was bom in that province; I worked in the coal mines of Cape Breton and lived amongst the miners of that section; I also worked in the steel works at Sydney. So that I know all about Dominion Iron & Steel, about Besco, and about all the other matters that are mentioned in that connection; and when I undertake to reply to the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) I do not think that any hon. gentleman will accuse me of saying anything detrimental to the province of Nova Scotia. Why, it was on February 24 last that the Minister of Labour himself (Mr. Murdock) told us in this House that Cape Breton was suffering from a canker; the Minister of Labour, who is always gesticulating on questions of this kind, described that part of the Dominion as a canker. But what did he do to relieve the situation? All he was prepared to do was to feed the suffering people 'bit by bit with the British

The Budget-Mr. Doucet

North America Act. Well, there are very bad conditions in that section of Nova Scotia to-day, and while it as true that we Nova Scotians are a proud people I would remind the House that hunger knows no pride. And when people see thousands of young ones at the point of starvation it is only right that the facts should be placed before the people of this country so that some relief may be obtained. The hon. member for Southeast Grey was rather rebuked because she ventured to report upon conditions as she found them. I do not say, that she adopted the best possible course; but with the sympathy characteristic of her sex she determined, on reading the reports in the press, to look into the conditions for herself. And from the statements that have been made by some of the highest authorities in the Maritime provinces I believe that the hon. member's report is altogether according to the facts. The Roman Catholic Bishop of Antigonish, the Rev. Dr. John Morrison, on March 15 last issued an appeal to his people for relief for the suffering children of Cape Breton island and' vicinity; Archbishop Worrell, of Halifax, also made an appeal on March 23; and the Sydney Ministerial Association, representing several protestant denominations of Nova Scotia, appealed similarly on March 22. So that my hon. friend from Southeast Grey is in very good company. A Canadian press despatch of March 26 reads:

In the Glace Bay and Dominion No. 6 areas, 2,727 families representing approximately 13,000 people were supplied with food to-day. This represents about 40 per cent of the distribution for the whole district.

Then we have an appeal from Rev. Dr. John Macintosh, a gentleman whom I know well, the Moderator of the Presbyterian' Synod of the Maritime provinces. He says:

The Presbyterian people have always been noted for their readiness to hear the cry of the destitute' in any land, and I am sure they will not turn a deaf ear to the cry of their fellow citizens, especially of women and children, when the appeal is made to them.

Of course Dr. Macintosh had not read' the speech of the hon. member for Lunenburg when he said that. There is also a report from Miss S. Gold, social service worker for the Canadian Brotherhood of Railway Employees; after a personal tour of investigation she reported on conditions on March 29. There is also a report from the Central Relief (committee of Glace Bay as follows:

We greatly appreciate the generosity of the Canadian public, and on behalf of the poverty-stricken women and children hope for its continuance. Cash contributions for the purchase of foodstuffs are of paramount importance.-(Signed) Rev. M. A. MacAdam,

P.P.; Rev. A. M. McLeod, Glace Bay Relief Committee.-Canadian Press Despatch, March 26.

These are the authorities on the situation that exists in Glace Bay and in the mining districts generally, and in view of the reports that we have had from them all I think it hardly becomes the hon. member for Lunenburg to criticize those who are applying for relief throughout the Dominion in behalf of these suffering people. It is enough to make one's heart bleed to know that there may be in that part of the country someone near and dear to him at the point of starvation. When, therefore, kind-hearted workers ask for relief they should be given something more than the British North America Act and statistics; certainly they should not be castigated on the floor of this House by an hon. member who knows no more about Glace Bay than, I know about astronomy. Why did not the government and our friends opposite call upon the members representing that section of the country, who are thoroughly conversant with the facts as they exist, to reply to the hon. member for Southeast Grey, if they thought that her report of conditions down there was not altogether correct? They did not do that because they knew that those hon. members would not stoop to give anything but the facts; and they know that the facts as reported by the hon. member aTe absolutely correct, notwithstanding anything the hon. member for Lunenburg may say. The hon. member (Mr. Duff) in the course of his speech told his own leader the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) that he had no business to contribute S100 to the relief of the poor in Glace Bay, and he informed the people of Ontario generally and the citizens of Ottawa that it was just as well for them to mind their own business; they had no right to interfere with affairs down there. And while the hon. gentleman was speaking thus to the House we find the central relief committee expressing the fear that unless they could get help from outside thousands upon thousands of young children would starve. Immediately, Mr. Speaker, the report was broadcast throughout that section by the Canadian Press that the hon. member for Lunenburg (Mr. Duff) had stated on the floor of this House that conditions, while not ideal, were not very much worse than they were in the larger cities of the Dominion, the chairman and secretary of the Central Relief committee of the Glace Bay district Rev. M. A. MacAdam, parish priest, and Rev. A. M. McLeod, Presbyterian clergyman, of the town of Glace Bay

by the way every time the

The Budget-Mr. Doucet

hon. member for Lunenburg mentioned Glace Bay he called it the "city" of Glace Bay; in Cape Breton we are proud to call it " the biggest town in Canada," for it has the largest population of any of our incorporated towns- immediately, I say, the chairman and secretary of the Central Relief committee sent this message:

Only relief from outside sources will save thousands of our Cape Breton people who are in dire need and on the verge of starvation. Far from resenting outside assistance, we appeal for it and hope it will be speedily given us by a generous Canadian people. We would welcome unbiased investigators to visit us and ascertain for themselves.

That is a direct answer to the remarks made by the hon. member for Lunenburg. True, he represents a constituency on the western shores of Nova Scotia, it is a west-shore constituency and he is not conversant with conditions in the mining section as are the hon. members for Cumberland (Mr. Logan), Inverness (Mr. Chisholm), Cape Breton North and Victoria (Mr. Kelly), Cape Breton South and Richmond (Mr. Carroll and Mr. Kyte), and the hon. Minister of National Defence (Mr. Macdonald). I have another telegram dated Halifax, April 2, and received last night:

Respectfully suggest that you refute statements made by Nova Scotia member yesterday regarding conditions in colliery towns. Had it not been for outside relief during the past three weeks hundreds would have died of starvation.

Now, the conditions are such that even if an amicable agreement is reached it will be some time before those in distress will be able to dispense with outside relief. I have not spoken of the trouble betwen the miners and Besco. I have worked with the miners and for the company, and I could say something very illuminating on both sides of the case, but I will not enter upon the merits now. Let us hope that the parties will come to an amicable agreement. But in the meantime there are thousands of people in that district in great need of relief, and let not the remarks of the hon. member for Lunenburg prevent any charitably inclined citizens from sending whatever measure of relief they can afford to give to the distressed population. It must not be forgotten that for the last three years the coal miners of that section have worked only two and three days a week. My hon. friend from Lunenburg may say: "Oh, if my people were getting the same wages as the coal miners, they would own their homes and have bank accounts." Yes, I admit the wage is satisfactory for six days a week, but when the miners have to feed and clothe their families for the whole week on what they earn during the two or three days they

are at work, their remuneration is a very small pittance indeed.

I submit, Mr. Speaker, that we should send relief, and I think this government, which has been so generous in the past in assisting the people of Japan, China and other countries by substantial grants of money, might very well do something for the relief of suffering Canadians. I go further, Sir. Some of the people in that section are placing the blame on the government. I admit at once that they do not blame the government for the trouble between Besco and the miners. I think this parliament acted wisely in refusing to grant a charter to the British Empire Steel Corporation. Everyone knows that the corporation secured its charter from the legislature of Nova Scotia. I do not propose to discuss the charter; but I do say that the policy of this government in reducing the customs tariff on the iron and steel produced in the steel works at Sydney, which industry consumes the greater portion of the bituminous coal mined in the Cape Breton section, have placed the coal operators under a serious handicap, for without the markets, the coal areas cannot be developed and the miners cannot be given steady employment. Hence we have the condition of uncertain employment. In view of those facts, I submit that the government would be well advised to make a reasonable contribution to the relief fund to tide over the people until such time as a satisfactory arrangement may be arrived at between the coal miners and the British Empire Steel Corporation.

In conclusion, Mr. Speaker, let me say that we require more protection for the industries of the Maritime provinces, and that to this end there must be effected a readjustment of the duties on bituminous run of mine coal, and that the budget resolution for the drawback of 99 per cent duty on bituminous coal imported for coke making should be withdrawn, otherwise what little benefit is given by the increased duty on slack coal will be entirely wiped out. Given proper protection this industry would prosper. In the industrial sections of Nova Scotia there is a population of about 250,000 people, and I venture to say that if they were working six days a week at a satisfactory wage you would have a contented people-a people be it remembered, composed of the descendants of those highland Scotch, of those who came from Green Erin, of the descendants of the United Empire Loyalists, and, last but not least, of the descendants of that great tragedy of 1755.

The Budget-Mr. Denis (St. Denis)

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
Permalink
LIB

Joseph-Arthur Denis

Liberal

Mr. ARTHUR DENIS (St. Denis) (Translation) :

Mr. Speaker, before broaching the

subject matter of the budget, I want to congratulate the hon. member who has just taken his seat (Mr. Doucet) for his magnificent address in favour of our beautiful French language. He graciously offers us his generous co-operation and I extend to him my compliments. I am not one of those who think that the French language has received all the honours which are due to it, however, it pleases me to note, as the hon. member for Kent has stated himself, that under the present government there has been a great improvement toward giving to the French language a more conspicuous place in the affairs of the country. We have not completed the task, but we shall continue to work together to claim our rights, and before long, under the realm of justice of which we can now boast, we shall receive, I am well confident, full and entire satisfaction.

My hon. friend introduced some spice in his speech, but this must not astonish us; our good friends should not have quarreled with him, for, after all, he belongs to the Tory party, although he refuses to recognize the name; we, therefore, could not expect that he would express himself otherwise. The records of history have been handed down to us, and for a reason; we should draw beneficial lessons from them. Let us not forget, however, that although we must be firm and tenacious in our claims, we must act in a decent manner, without having recourse to vulgar expedient; which simply means that we must be dignified, in words as well as in deeds, and justice and common sense will end by exerting their beneficent influence.

With reference to the budget as brought down, the hon. Acting Minister of Finance (Mr. Robb) is entitled to our most sincere congratulations. We awaited this budget with some feeling of anxiety, as we feared that the reductions which were adopted last session, regarding the tariff on raw materials and the sale tax on products of first necessity, would show a great decrease in the revenues of the country. Fortunately, however, this reduction which favoured the masses, was not an impediment to the success of the country's administration.

The revenues, this year, are somewhat smaller; but this decrease was partly compensated by the economy applied to the expenditure, without, however, being detrimental to the development of our young country. It is with a feeling of joy and confidence that we learned from the hon. Acting Minister of Finance, that the budget of this year showed

a favourable balance of $1,832,000 over the cost of the administration.

Since the outset of this debate certain criticisms were made by the loyal opposition, but they were not of a serious nature. Consequently, the government should not pay any more attention to them than it is necessary; but it should continue its ascending march in the path of progress and good feeling, a path which it has always followed since it has been at the helm of the affairs of this country. We might, perhaps, take our good friends the Conservatives more seriously, if we had not seen them at work from 1911 to

1921. How can they decently preach economy, knowing that during their administration, they . had ruined the country, and what is worse destroyed the good feeling which existed between the races and classes of the Canadian community? We can recall that in 1911, when they assumed power, our fair Canada enjoyed great prosperity and we were happy and content to live on its soil; however, after a few years of their regime, we were thrown into the greatest distress. Our debt increased considerably, deficits followed favourable balances which we had under the wise administration of our great leader, Sir Wilfrid Laurier, and, the unavoidable consequence was that very heavy taxes were levied on the people to meet the obligations incurred and provide for the present needs of the country. Nobody was spared, if we except a few large profiteers who were friends of the government. We were living in a peaceful quietude, but war broke out and spread terror and desolation in our homes. More than that, under the cloak of false patriotism, these good Tories found means, to satisfy their destructive designs, of awakening certain prejudices almost extinct, under the previous Liberal government; only a few of these petty factions remained and their days were numbered; ridicule and their insignificance would have in the end made them entirely disappear to the great satisfaction of everybody.

I do not wish, Mr. Speaker, to criticize the expenditure which the war was responsible for, but I cannot help telling them, together with Sir Arthur Currie and Mr. Beatty, the president of the Canadian Pacific Railway, that they showed poor judgment. The 100,000 conscripts that they sent overseas, to help the cause of the allies, should' have never left this country. It was a useless expense, but I may add very useful from the viewpoint of our over-zealous Imperialists whose sole ambition was to enrich themselves and to insult those who differed from their views. That was part of their work. I could

1842 COMMONS

The Budget-Mr. Denis (St. Denis)

continue and give further instances, but I shall not do so; these recollections are too heart-breaking to all Canadians who love their country and wish to see it rich and prosperous. All countries have/ had their period of greatness and downfall, of prosperity and depression, and for us Canadians, from 1911 to 1921, was the most depressing period of our history. The great culprits are those who, to-day, are bold enough to rise and blame the government for not having practised1 economy. Hon. gentlemen, of the opposition, should not delude themselves into thinking that the public gulp these things down! You may drag your hearse across the whole country, even through Montreal with the Hon. Monty and company, the people are wise as to your frankness and sincerity and they have not forgotten your great success in the administration of public affairs.

Coming back to the budget speech itself, it is pleasing to note that the country, under the wise administration of the present government is from year to year making rapid progress. Our trade, this year, with the other nations, once more attests a favourable balance of $263,414,526. With the British Empire, we can show a favourable balance of $243,000,000. It is only with the United States that the trade balance is against us. However, every year, this adverse balance is getting smaller, and we can hope that before long we shall also have with them a favourable trade balance, notwithstanding their high protective tariff.

What a joke it is to contend that upholding that high protective tariff is the salvation of the country. I think it is more a clever trick to fool the workman by promising them that protection will give them employment, with more remunerative salaries. Never in the history of our country were the workmen happier and more prosperous than under the Laurier-Fielding tariff, which was not a high protective tariff, but one for revenue only. I admit, however, that there are industries which need some protection, but this protection must not hinder competition which is necessary to maintain the quality of the products and fair prices for the consumer.

The depression which, at present, exists in a few of our industries, is not caused by the lack of protection, but rather by the unbounded ambition of some manufacturers who wish to make too great a profit, and1 this without any compensation to the workman whom they intentionally allow bo suffer to satisfy their greed for gold. Take, for instance, the manufacturer of boots and shoes.

I do not accuse them all as I know there are a great number who are satisfied with the present conditions. For the part year, these manufacturers are carrying on an active campaign, in the press of the country, against the government, blaming it far not giving them more protection and state that their industry is being ruined.

If we look up the official figures supplied by the Trade and Commerce Statistical Bureau, we see that in 1924, the imports on boots and shoes amounted to $2,174,023, or 1,043,262 pairs; in 1923, the imports amounted to $1,740,351 or 704,762 pairs; in 1922, $1,670,858; but in 1921, under the administration of our good friends on the opposite side of * the House, the imports amounted to $2,993,730, consequently $819,708 more than in 1924. It is only within the last year that our manufacturers complain. Do you not think, Sir, that they had far more reason to comphin in 1921 than to-day? It is the change of government, which, I believe, is the cause of their complaints. Any reason will do, what they are after, is the government's scalps, to satisfy their political ambition.

I shall give you further figures: In 1924, $64,061,148 worth of boots and shoes were produced in this country or 32,204,943 pairs; in 1923, $60,484,449 or 29,271,183 pairs. You will note that, in 1924, more boots and shoes were manufactured than in 1923. I could give you the figures for 1922, but I think that the House is quite satisfied that the manufacturers of boots and shoes show bad faith, and I shall try to prove it now by their exports. In 1924, they exported for $2,283,609 worth of goods; in 1923 for $1,513,046; in 1922, for $1,009,198; in 1921, for $3,993,730. By comparing the imports with the exports, we find that, in 1924, they had a favourable balance of $109,586; in 1923, an adverse balance of $227,305; in 1922, also an adverse balance of $661,640; but in 1921. the last year of the Conservative government, they had a favourable balance of $62,563. This balance was not, however, as high as that of the year 1924 which, as I have just stated, was $109,-5S6, or a difference of $47,023.

This only goes to show that these gentlemen aire greedy and the more we shall feed them, the more ,their stomach will call far food which they hope to get through protection. However, I see that the government is not disposed to supply this food; and with reason, it rather prefers to help the consumers. There are other industries whose conditions are identical to those of the boot and shoe manufacture, and who claim a higher protective tariff, but I shall mot

The Budget-Mr. Logan

enumerate them as I do not wish to impose on the good nature of the House. Before closing my remarks, I should like to give a few advices of a nature to ease the task of the government in regard to the decreasing of the administration cost. I trust that they will be well received.

What I would recommend to the government is not the reduction of ijhe parliamentary indemnity, such as was moved by a few hon. members of this House, because the indemnity we receive is certainly not too high for a member who attends regularly the sittings of the House, and who is not content with only putting in an appearance when large interests are involved or threatened; but what I would like to see is the abolishing of the Civil Service Commission which, each year,' costs the country the nice sum of $194,580.40, an amount which would help to pay the yearly deficits of our National railways and merchant marine. It is well to observe, by the way, that the government has reduced the cost of that service by more than $100,000 since the year 1921-22. Neither do I wish to criticize the commissioners for their work; but looking at it from the point of view of usefulness, I state that this commission is a luxury that the country is unable to put up with. Moreover, no proof exists that, since the establishment of the commission, the service in the various departments has been more efficient and that the country has benefited proportionately to the cost of this commission. It perhaps served a purpose, under the previous government, owing to their incompetence and the habit contracted of indulging in patronage, however, under the present government which includes the best men of the 'country, it serves no purpose.

Another matter to which my attention was drawn in the budget, is the duty being levied on electric power. I am very conservative so far as our natural resources are concerned, but not in politics. I should like to see them developed for the benefit of our people only, and utilized on Canadian soil so as to feed our present-day industries and those that might come later on to establish themselves in this country. However, I do not find fault with this imposing of a duty, but I should not like to see this privilege to export power prolonged more than one year. Further, I do not want to see these companies export power to the detriment of the Canadian consumer by demanding from the latter a higher price per horse-power, as this is happening in the country, at present. I hope the government will take the necessary measures to prevent these companies from exploiting the Canadian consumer for the benefit of foreigners who come and take our electric power to meet the requirements of their industries.

I shall close my remarks, Mr. Speaker, by assuring the government of my entire confidence in them, if they continue, as they have done heretofore, to govern the country, first for the people, and lastly for the magnates. Let us help our farmers, our producers and our consumers by lowering the cost of raw material, let us facilitate the marketing of their products by giving them a fair transportation tariff, let us try to create new markets, and I feel confident that in following that policy we shall all be happy and content with living on the sacred soil of Canada.

Mr. HANCE J. LOGAN (Cumberland): On the 12th June last, this House expressed a desire, concurred in by leading members of all parties that the trade and other relations between Canada and the West Indies and other southern countries, should be investigated. On the 26th November an order in council was passed appointing me as a commissioner to proceed to the West Indies and other islands and lands in and about the Caribbean sea. In a letter from the Prime Minister I was also instructed as follows:

My colleagues and I would be pleased if you would convey to the governors and people of Bermuda, the British West Indies and British Guiana, a warm message of good-will and interest from the government and people of the Dominion of Canada. Would you kindly convey to the governments of the various Islands and of British Guiana, the cordial invitation of the Canadian government to attend a joint conference to be held at Ottawa in the spring of 1925, at a definite date to be agreed upon mutually, for the purpose of negotiating and concluding a new trade and transportation agreement between our respective countries. All further details of representation, scope of the conference, financial arrangements, etc., will be taken up by our officials upon intimation of the decision of the governments of Bermuda, the British West Indies and British Guiana, in this matter.

Will you kindly express to the various governments mentioned the sincere desire of the Canadian government that they may be able to co-operate with us in the manner suggested, and our assurance of a cordial reception to their delegates in this country.

After conferring with a number of boards of trade, West Indian merchants and firms in several cities and towns, I proceeded from Halifax on the 14th December last. Owing to most tempestuous weather, I met with a severe accident on board ship, which caused a delay of several days at Hamilton, Bermuda. In the eleven weeks I was away from Canada, I travelled by sea and land over ten thousand miles; was thirty-nine days at sea; visited seventeen countries, under eight different flags; met with the governing bodies; addressed the

The Budget-Mr. Logan

chambers of commerce, boards of trade, planters' and agricultural societies; and had an opportunity of discussing in private and public with legislators and other leading men in all walks of life in all these different lands. I was met with enthusiasm everywhere, and found a keen desire wherever I went for greater trade between our country and theirs. I also found, not only in foreign republics, but throughout the British West Indies, that, particularly since the war, the American nation has been making a determined drive to capture trade with these tropical countries. Everywhere I found American consular agents, viceconsuls and other representatives of the United States, all of whom are really trade agents, housed in splendid offices with efficient secretarial and other clerical staffs. I also found American commercial travellers hustling for trade. But in all the vast domain, where the total population amounts to some fourteen millions of people, and where the trade of the countries visited amounts to three hundred and seventy five millions of dollars annually- outside of Cuba, which has a vast trade, particularly with the United States of America -I found only two trade commissioners of Canada, each with a staff of one person, I met only two Canadian commercial travellers!

Let me give, in as few words as possible, a description of the countries I visited1 in company with Lieut.-Colonel Brown of the Canadian National Railways' staff as transportation adviser and Mr. H. C. Crowell, of Halifax, secretary, who were with me throughout the whole trip; and Mr. D. H. Ross, of the Trade and Commerce department, who was with me during part of the trip. We first visited Bermuda, which has been well-named the gem of the Atlantic ocean. The area of Bermuda is nineteen square miles, and the population 20,410. The imports and exports for the year 1923 were:

Imports 1923 Exports 1923

pounds pounds

sterling sterling

Canada 40,160

United Kingdom.. . .. 708.413 450United States . .. 913.576 125,035Other countries .. 21.364 328,155Total 493,800

The principal articles imported are flour, oats-of which nearly 200,000 bushels last year came from Canada,-bran, hay,-of which about fifty thousand dollars' worth was from Canada,-lumber, principally from the United States; potatoes, ten thousand barrels from Canada and three thousand one hundred barrels from the United States; and

whisky, 25,873 gallons from Canada, and from other countries 269,393 gallons.

In regard to exports to Canada, the figure is not large, being valued at about forty thousand pounds for the year 1923, of which something under four thousand pounds in value was produce or manufactures of the colony, the bulk being onions. Until very recently, nearly all the onions raised in Bermuda went to the United States; but now that that country has placed a heavy duty on onions, there should be large increases to the Canadian market.

The harbour of Hamilton, the capital of Bermuda, is small, but it has deep water and is well sheltered. It is approached by a long winding channel, which has docking space for three good-sized ships, along a straight quay wall. The passenger traffic in and out of Bermuda is very large, and, contrary to what is generally thought, it is fairly well sustained throughout the year. According to tourist statistics of the island in 1923, the following were the number of tourists monthly:

January 2,239

February 3,273

March 3,758

April 2,613

May 524

June 1,262

July 1,697

August 2,524

September 2,206

October 2,315

November 2,097

December 2,253

Total for 1923 26,761

In fact, Bermuda's prosperity depends almost entirely upon the tourist traffic, and every possible facility is provided to assist and encourage it. There is no doubt that if there were proper passenger steamers plying between Canada and Bermuda, a large part of the tourist traffic from this country, which at the present generally goes via New York, would be diverted to Canadian ports.

While I was on the island I was honoured with a seat in the legislature beside the Speaker; and among the items of expenditure which were passed was one for about $121,000 as a subsidy to a line from New York, while no subsidy is paid to any line to Canada. I think it is one of the duties of Canada as a British country, to endeavour to counteract, as far as possible, the American influence, which is very apparent to anyone visiting the island. Upon arrival, we were welcomed by a large delegation, among them being the Mayor of Hamilton, the President of the Chamber of Commerce, the Chairman of the

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Bermuda Development Board, and a number of other prominent citizens. During my stay, I had an opportunity of addressing many of the members of the Chamber of Commerce and the Bermuda Development Board. While the American influence, as I have said, is very strong, I am happy to say we have a number of very staunch friends in this island who desire better trade relations with Canada.

We arrived at the island of St. Christopher -better known as St. Kitts-on January 4. This island is in a group known as the Leeward Islands, which are divided between the British, French, Dutch and United States governments. The principal islands under British control are St. Christopher, Nevis, Antigua, Dominica and Montserrat. These form a crown colony under one Governor. The seat of government is St. Johns, Antigua; the other sections being governed by administrators subordinate to the Governor. There is also a General Legislative Council, composed of sixteen members appointed by the Governor. St. Christopher has an area of 68 square miles, and a population of 31,000. The principal port is Basseterre, with a population of about 10,000. The total trade for 1921 amounted to approximately $3,500,000. The principal exports are sugar, sea-island cotton, limes, tobacco and cocoa; but the largest export to Canada is sugar. There is one mill with an annual output of about 12,000 tons. St. Kitts and Antigua are ideal winter resorts. The weather is much warmer than in Bermuda. The islands are rich in historical lore, particularly Nevis, which is very near to St. Kitts. It was on this island-Nevis-that Captain Nelson, afterwards the great admiral of the British fleet was married.

The ship dropped anchor in the harbour of Basseterre at 8.30 a.m., and the Acting Administrator the Hon. H. M. Wigley came on board. During the day a meeting was held in the town, which I addressed. I met most of the leading men of the island, among them being Dr. Aitken, a brother of Lord Beaverbrook. The response to my address was delivered in a very eloquent manner, by Mr. P. Marshall, a clever coloured member of the Legislative and Executive Councils. A number of other leading men took part in the following discussion, ancludjing jthe president of the Agricultural Society. All of them strongly recommended the promotion of closer trade relations with Canada and the acceptance of Canada's invitation to a conference at Ottawa.

On January 5, we arrived in Antigua, and were met by a large delegation of prominent citizens, who extended a very cordial welcome. Antigua has an area of 108 square miles and a population of about 30,000. The principal port is St. Johns, with a population of about 8,000. The total trade of this island in 1921 was about $3,000,000. It is estimated that the sugar production of Antigua this year will amount to about 15,000 tons. In the days of Nelson, English harbour jan this island was the largest and best equipped naval dock in the West Indies. It was here that Nelson refitted his fleet before starting on the cruise that ended with the battle of Trafalgar. A great need of Antigua, as well as St. Kitts, is better hotel accommodation; and it was urged at the meetings which I addressed that, in connection with steamship service, there might be combined a plan or a system of building bungalow hotels. A resolution urging the acceptance of the Leeward Islands of our invitation.

Dominica has an area of 291 square miles and a population of 38,000. The imports of this island in 1922 were valued at about $800,000, and the exports at nearly the same amount.

Montserrat has an area of 32J square miles, with a population of 12,000. The principal town and port is Plymouth. The peculiarity of the people of this island is that while they are nearly all coloured, they speak with a decided Irish accent. Many years ago, an Irish regiment was stationed on this island. The principal products of Montserrat are sea-island cotton, limes, and lime juice.

From the point of view of natural beauty, the Leeward Islands are delightful. Their soils are fertile; and there can be no doubt that, with the expenditure of money, their resources could 'be developed and great prosperity brought to their .peoples.

The next port of call of the steamer after leaving Antigua was Martinique, an island thoroughly French. It has a population of about 250,000 people, and is probably one of the most prosperous places I had the opportunity of visiting. Through the good offices of the Royal Bank at Fort-de-France, the capital of the island, I was able to meet several of the prominent citizens. Most of the textiles of the island are imported >from France; but there is an opening for Canadian manufactures, and particularly flour, lumber and fertilizers. Their total imports of flour last year amounted to about 72,000 barrels, and of fertilizers about 100,000 tons. All of these fertilizers were secured from the west coast of South America.

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Guadeloupe is another important French island. I did not have an opiportunity to visit it; but I was informed that the prospects there of trade with Canada are good. The island has an area of 688 square miles, and a population of 229,000. I strongly recommend that there should be appointed a Frenchspeaking Canadian -trade agent to represent us in Martinique, Guadeloupe and Haiti where the people, with few exceptions, speak only French.

The Republic of Haiti has a population of over two millions of -people. The soil is very fertile. Although I did not visit Haiti, I was informed by the inspector of the Royal Bank agencies in the West Indies, who had recently spent a considerable time there, that in his opinion the opportunities for increased trade with Canada were greater in that republic than in any other part of the West Indies; and I was assured by a Haitian representative whom I had the pleasure of meeting that there is a very keen desire in Haiti for better trade relations with Canada, -and to that end he urged that they should be given a French-speaking Canadian trade agent, as all of the two millions of inhabitants speak French, and very few speak English.

We arrived at Bridgetown, Barbados, on the morning of January 7, and were met by a representative delegation consisting of governmental officials, business men, agriculturists and others. In Bridgetown, on January 8, I addressed a very large and enthusiastic joint meeting of the Chamber of Commerce, the Agricultural Society and planters, at which a resolution was passed with great enthusiasm, accepting the invitation of the Canadian government to a new conference. Barbados -has an area of 166 square mi-les, nearly -all of which is under cultivation. The population of the island is approximately 160,000. Its imports in 1923 amounted in value to about twelve and a half millions of dollars, of which three millions represented imports from Canada. Its exports in that year were about nine million dollars' worth, of which nearly seven million dollars' worth were to Canada. The exports of Barbados are almost entirely sugar and molasses. Canada is by far the best customer in molasses. In 1923 we -took 4,752,120 gallons out of a total exportation of 6,359,158. Of sugar -they exported to us 32,316 tons, out of a total export of 49,060. The average exportation for ten years, 1914 to 1923 inclusive, was 41,507 tons. The -principal articles imported from Canada by Barbados are: cattle food, oil meal, bran, sulphate of ammonia, butter, cheese, salted fish, -grain, oats, flour,; salted beef and pork;

lumber, spruce and shingles. The total value of imports from Canada in 1923 was about two and a half million dollars. The imports of flour from Canada are evidently decreasing. In 1920 their value was approximately $1,400,000; in 1921 about one million dollars; in 1922 about $750,000; and in 1923 they had fallen to $600,000.

Passenger traffic from Canada to Barbados is very small, in spite of the fact that the island's climatic conditions make it a most wonderful health resort. A criticism of the people of Barbados as well as of other West Indian islands, is their lack of effort to advertise the beauties and attractions of the various islands. The type of tourist these islands need is not, I submit, the American "tripper," who remains for only a few days; but people who will make their homes in these wonderful sun-kissed lands during the winter months at least, and get to know the people, and to admire the islands so that they will return there year after year. A serious complaint was made by the people of Barbados that we had closed our Canadian trade agency in that island, and that they have no one on the spot to confer with officially in reference to Canadian matters. I was very much impressed with the productivity of this, the most easterly of the West Indian islands. It is composed of a limestone and coral formation; and unlike many of the other islands, has no volcanic characteristics. There are about four hundred miles of excellent motor roads, which 'being built of white coral are particularly free from mud and also produce very little dust.

The hospitality of the people of Barbados is well known, and the beauty of their homes is unexcelled. In no other part of the world will you find so many of the old planters' houses, many of them filled with beautiful antique mahogany furniture, homes maintained with all the style and ceremony of the old slavery days. Barbados is a little country of quiet dignity and refinement, and it possesses during most of the year a climate which is probably unsurpassed.

The Windward Islands constitute one crown colony,, consisting of St. Lucia, St. Vincent and Grenada, with a small group of islands known as the Grenadines. There is one government for the entire group, the seat of government being at St. George, Grenada. The total area of these islands is about five hundred square miles, and the population about 165,000. The imports in 1923 amounted in value to about $3,200,000, and the exports to about $2,600,000.

On the morning of January 9th we arrived at Tobago, a dependency of the island of Trinidad, and were greeted by a reception com-

The Budget-Mr. Logan

mittee which came out to the ship. I went ashore and met a number of prominent citizens, who keenly desire closer relations with Canada. We arrived at Port of Spain, the capital of Trinidad, the evening of that day, January 9, and were received by a large and very influential delegation, which came out to the ship-anchored two miles from the shore-and extended a warm welcome from the government and the people of Trinidad. On the following morning, January 10, I had an informal discussion with a committee composed of the Trinidad Chamber of Commerce, the Agricultural Society, and Sir S. Davson, president of the Associated Boards of Trade of the British West Indies, who stopped over on his way from Georgetown, to England. This was really a round table discussion, to formulate a programme of activities when I should return to Trinidad from British Guiana.

We arrived at Georgetown, the capital of British Guiana; otherwise known as Demerara, on the morning of January 13th, and were met by a deputation consisting of representatives of the government and leading business men, including Sir Alfred Sherlock and other prominent citizens of the capital. On the 14th a large meeting of the combined commercial and industrial interests of the colony was held, the meeting being presided over by the governor, Sir Graeme Thompson. I addressed this meeting, and extended the invitation of our government, which was received with great enthusiasm. That evening a banquet was given by the Georgetown Chamber of Commerce, at which over one hundred were present. Inspiring addresses were made. Canada has a warm place in the hearts of British Guiana. It is one of the most important of the British colonies. The area is 89,480 square miles, and the population nearly 300,000. The capital, as I have said, is Georgetown, with a population of 56,000. The imports in 1922 amounted in value to over $11,000,000; the exports to over $13,000,000. Canada is British Guiana's second best customer, her exports in 1922 to the Dominion being to the value of $5,029,143, and to the United Kingdom $5,722,675. Her imports are chiefly butter and cheese, coal, machinery, and implements, and fish-dried and pickled- grain and flour. The value of flour imported from Canada for the year ended December 31st, 1923, was $1,174,762. She also imports condensed milk, pork, hams, bacon, potatoes, tobacco and woollens.

The colony is on the northeast coast of South America, contiguous to French Guiana and Dutch Guiana. It was settled by the Dutch, who certainly picked out a country 118

much like their homeland. Georgetown and the surrounding plantations lie some four feet below sea level, the country being protected for miles by strong sea walls and dykes. Sugar is the staple product of the colony, the annual output being around 85,000 tons. The area under cultivation of sugar is 50,000 acres. This area could, however, ibe greatly increased. In fact, I was informed by a reliable authority that the colony could easily produce two million tons of sugar annually, if they had sufficient market.

The colony has wonderful rivers, waterfalls, in the interior, fertile farms and grazing lands; also minerals, including diamonds. The diamond production last year was about $5,000,000. I heard in this colony also the complaint that they have no resident trade commissioner from Canada. I would recommend that such a commissioner be appointed, and that he be given jurisdiction over the French and Dutch Guianas as well.

On January 16 I arrived back at Port of Spain, Trinidad, which is the great big island on the west of the Caribbean sea. It possesses wonderful resources of various kinds, including cocoa lands, sugar cane plantations, vast cocoanut groves, oil wells and asphalt. The latter is procured from Pitch lake, where there seems to be an everlasting supply. Practically the world's supply of oil tar or asphalt has come from this lake in the past fifty years. The lake is about 114 acres in extent; but although millions of tons have been extracted, it is now only fourteen feet below its original level. The pitch is taken or mined from the lake, by hand, workmen merely using ordinary picks and shovels to break it in pieces. The cavity formed during the day, disappears during the night. The annual output amounts to something like two hundred thousand tons. None of this asphalt is shipped direct to Canada.

The area of Trinidad, including its dependency of Tobago, is 1,976 square miles, and the population is 365,913. The population of the capital, Port of Spain, a wonderful and beautiful city, is 61,531. The imports of the island in 1923 were in value over twenty million dollars, of which over four millions were from Canada and about five millions from the United States. The exports in that year were over $23,000,000 worth, the amount to Canada being about $1,500,000. In 1923, the principal articles of import into Trinidad from Canada and the United States were; butter, cheese, fish-dried or salted-bran, corn meal, oats, flour, salt beef and pork, bacon, condensed milk, vegetables-dried and canned-fresh vegetables, potatoes, onions, and lumber.

1S48

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On January 20 I addressed the Chamber of Commerce at Port of Spain. The meeting was a very large one. A strong resolution that the invitation of this government should be accepted was carried unanimously. On this island I visited several sugar plantations, and mills, among them being that situated at Usine Ste. Madeleine, where there are 22,000 acres under cane cultivation and 15,000 people employed. I also had the great privilege of visiting the city of San Fernandez, and seeing some of the results of the great work done by the Rev. Kenneth J. Grant, the devout Canadian who served thirty-seven years of his life as a missionary among the East India people of Trinidad. I am firmly convinced that the trade with Trinidad can be very materially increased. We are fortunate in having on this island as Canadian Trade Commissioner Mr. H. R. Poussette, who has lately moved into a suite of offices that do credit to our country.

On January 25 I sailed from Port of Spain on the Royal Dutch Mail Line Steamer Venezuela, for Venezuela, Colombia and Panama, en route to Jamaica. We arrived at the port of La Guayra on January 27, and a representative of the Venezuelan government immediately boarded the ship and accorded a very enthusiastic welcome. We proceeded to Caracas, the capital of the republic, which is a wonderful city, situated in the mountains and with a population of over one hundred thousand people. I had a conference with the Foreign Minister and other representatives of the government, the acting British Minister being the interpreter. I extended the greetings and felicitations of our government, which were reciprocated by the Foreign minister. I was very agreeably surprised by the expression of a very great desire for increased trade with Canada. The members of the government, as well as other leading men whom I met in Venezuela, complained that we had no resident representative of Canada in the whole republic, and also complained of the lack of steamship service, which compels them to transport their goods through American ports. As a matter of fact, in the trade returns of Venezuela, there is no mention made of Canada, although the republic consumed last year 128,000 barrels of Canadian flour, all shipped from the port of New York and treated by the Venezuelan customs authorities as American goods. The customs and shipping regulations are very strict. Many fines are imposed and at times goods have been confiscated. Before visiting that country, I had been frequently told that trade could not be carried on successfully with Venezuela on account of the customs officials. I took

this matter up with the acting British minister at Caracas, and was informed that if shippers would observe the customs regulations properly no trouble would be met with from the Venezuelan customs authorities. In fact, he had decided, after investigation of complaints that had been made to him by British exporters to Venezuela, in favour of the Venezuelan customs authorities.

There is certainly a great need in this republic of a Spanish-speaking Canadian trade agent. It is a republic of great prosperity and of wonderful possibilities. There is in progress road building, principally cement, to the extent of many millions of dollars, which will reach all important trade centres of the country. The Maracaibo district, in the western part of the republic, is experiencing one of the world's greatest developments in oil, and the government derive from this oil development a very large amount of money in royalties.

I was surprised to find in Caracas that the business of the Royal Bank of Canada in that city requires a staff of over thirty people. Venezuela offers an excellent opportunity for the sale of Canadian products, expecially in such lines as flour, cement, spirits, cotton cloth, automobiles, and so forth: The population of the republic is 2.800.000. La Guayra is one of the most important harbours. The docking facilities are owned by an English company known as the La Guayra Harbour Corporation. The docks are well and substantially built, a^id the warehousing facilities are excellent. Cargo is transported to Caracas from La Guayra by a narrow-gauge railway- owned by the same interests owning the docks -and also by motor lorries over a wonderful cement highway.

_ The total trade of the republic is about sixty millions. Last year there was purchased from several countries as follows:

British Empire (except Canada) $ 7.158,079

United States $13,953,451

France 1,714.353

Holland 1,562,858

Spain 1.027,779

Germany 2,613,892

The next call of the Dutch liner was at Puerto Cabello, but we remained there only a few hours. Next to Le Guayra, this is the most important harbour in Venezuela. There is a splendid land-locked harbour, an excellent quay and good warehouse facilities. It is the sea port for Valencia and other large cities in the interior. The population is about twenty thousand people. Among the industries is a large abattoir owned by Vestey & Company, which is an English concern. I called upon the British consul and also upon

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the Mission school being carried on by very zealous and earnest people from the city of Toronto. ;

While Venezuela trade returns show practically no trade or business being done with Canada, owing to our goods being shipped via New York, the figures published by the Canadian Department of Trade and Commerce for the fiscal year ended March 31st, 1924, show Canada's total trade with Venezuela to have been worth $1,044,388. Among our exports as set forth in our trade returns are flour, whisky, cotton, duck, wall paper, farm implements, automobiles-value $70,594 -copper wire and calcium carbide, 4,519 cwt.; while our imports from Venezuela were principally cocoa (raw), and coffee (green). I have no doubt whatever that great expansion of trade is awaiting Canada as soon as proper steamship communication is provided. To give an example of what can be done, in the flour trade alone, it is interesting to note the extraordinary advance Canada has made in the last three years. The exports of flour from Canada to Venezuela have been as follows:

Barrels

In 1921

15,772In 1922

66,378In 1923

106,256In 1924

128,684

This is largely the result of keen work on the part of the flour milling companies. I suggest that their example might very well be followed by a large number of other manufacturing concerns in Canada. The Venezuelan tariff is an equal tariff to the whole world's with the exception of the West India Islands, whose goods are subject to thirty per cent extra charge.

From Puerto Cabello we proceeded to the Dutch island of Curacoa, about 110 miles north of Venezuela. Curacoa's chief claim to importance is the fact that it is the principal distributing port for a large part of Venezuela known as Maracaibo, where, as I mentioned before, there is being carried on one of the world's greatest oil developments. Another important fact regarding Curacoa is that it possesses a wonderful harbour at Willemstad, the capital, while the gulf of Maracaibo and lake Maracaibo are too shallow to permit the passage of vessels of more than twelve feet draft. At Curacoa I conferred with the governor of the colony, also the British consul, manager of Maduro's Bank, the most important financial institution in the colony; with the president of the Chamber of Commerce, with Mr. M. F. Saunders, a Canadian, assistant manager of U8i

the Royal Dutch Shell oil refinery, situated on the island-which turns out about thirty thousands barrels of oil per day-and with other prominent citizens. The harbour at Willemstad is one of the greatest ports in the whole West Indies. The total trade of Curacoa for 1923 amounted to $19,000,000, and in 1924 it had increased to $30,000,000. The imports, which amounted in 1924 to about $18,000,000 are credited in the Curacoa trade returns as coming from a large number of countries: for instance, from England to the value of $532,430; from France, $120,600; from the Netherlands, $1,967,200; from the United States, $2,681,600; but, unfortunately, from Canada according to these returns the imiports amounted to only $200.

In the island are wonderful deposits of phosphate of lime. The output is about one hundred thousand tons annually, shipped principally to Germany, England and Sweden, for fertilizing purposes. The island last year imported flour to the amount of 2,684 metnc tons, or, roughly speaking, 27,000 barrels. Corn meal for the same year was imported to the extent of 3,693 metric tons. Practically all the flour and corn meal comes from the United States. The only brand of flour I discovered made in Canada was known as "Olympic," exported by the Quaker Oats Company. The United States also supplies boots and shoes, groceries, hardware and so forth.

The customs duties of Curaco would not be complained of, even by our friends, the Progressives. The ad valorem duty is 3 per cent. There are some specific duties but none runs higher than 15 per cent.

From Curacoa we proceeded to Puerto Colombia, which is the seaport of Barran-quilla, a city of about seventy thousand people, and which is the distributing point for the western part of the Republic of Colombia. There is a concrete pier at Puerto Colombia which is over four thousand feet in length. At the end of this pier there is berthing accommodation for four large or six small steamers. Cargoes are landed direct to railway trucks and shipped to Barran-quilla.

Barranquilla, from a commercial point of view, is without doubt a very important city, by virtue of the fact that it is the distributing point for the traffic of the Magdalene river, which penetrates the interior for one thousand miles, but which is too shallow below Barranquilla to permit of navigation, although the river is navigable for shallow-draft steamers for about seven hundred miles above Barranquilla, with the exception rf a few short

The Budget-Mr. Logan

rapids, where railway lines have been built for transferring cargo. The goods are transported from Puerto Colombia to Barranquilla by a railway eighteen miles in length. This railway and the long concrete pier at Puerto Colombia are owned by a British concern. At Barranquilla we were received by the governor and the British consul, and other prominent citizens. We visited the points of interest, including a fairly large flour mill managed by a Canadian who is using some Canadian wheat and .would use more if direct transportation from Canada were provided. The necessity was strongly urged for the call of Canadian boats at Puerto Colombia.

From Puerto Colombia the ship proceeded to Cartagena, a city of sixty thousand people, and with one of the finest natural harbours in the world. I was received by a delegation from the Chamber of Commerce, and by representatives of the president of the republic, as well as by the governor of the Province. Afterwards, I held a conference with the governor and the ex-governor and a number of other prominent men of the city, who expressed a very keen desire for increased trade with Canada. I was much impressed with Colombia. In the first place, it is a land with constitutional and stable government, and with a kindly feeling for any country that is British. In a speech delivered by the governor at a large luncheon given by him, he referred with evident delight to the fact that in the war for independence and for freedom from Spanish rule, their great liberator, Bolivar, was assisted by British forces. Development of the country is rapidly progressing. Railways are being built, canals extended, shipping facilities improved, and oil and other mineral fields are being developed. The Standard Oil interests are commencing the construction of four hundred miles of pipe line from the interior to Cartagena. At Cartagena there is berthing space for three or four good-sized ships and the depth of water is sufficient for the largest liners. At the time we were there, the big steamship Tuscania of the Anchor-Donaldson line was lying alongside. '

The total trade of Colombia amounts to about one hundred million dollars annually. Canada's trade with this republic for the year ended March 31, 1924, amounted in value to $750,000, made up of: imports $480000 and exports $240,000. The principal exports from Canada were aluminum, cement, cotton, duck, flour-2,568 barrels-structural steel, automobiles, tires, and wall paper.

The imports from Colombia consisted of bananas-8,378 stems,-coffee (green).-2.397,-

102 pounds,-coffee n.o.p. 13,484 pounds; and miscellaneous in value, $3,066,000.

The commercial conditions of Colombia are good, and a substantial increase should be effected in our trade with that country, with proper transportation facilities, representation by a trade commissioner, and a greater effort made to place Canadian goods on that market.

From Cartagena the ship proceeded to Cristobal and Colon, at the mouth of the Panama canal. I went next day to the city of Panama, on the Pacific coast, a distance of forty-two miles, and called upon the British ambassador to the Republic of Panama. Through him, a conference was arranged with the Minister for Foreign Affairs. The following day, in company with the British minister and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, I was received at the palace by the President of the Republic, a very bright and active young man who spoke excellent English. He expressed delight with the greetings which I carried to him on behalf of Canada. Both the President and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, and other representative men whom I met, expressed a keen desire for increased trade with this country, among the requirements of their importations particularly mentioning flour and fish. While in Panama I met some representative citizens from the Republic of Costa Rica, who pointed out the opportunities for Canadian trade with that country, which is one of the most prosperous of the Central American republics.

Among the ships I saw passing through the Panama canal was a Canadian Government Merchant Marine boat on her way from Halifax to Vancouver.

After returning to Colon and Cristobal, I proceeded to Jamaica on one of the boats of the Elders and Fyffe's line. In Jamaica I found a great deal of dissatisfaction with the way in which Canada has dealt with that country since the holding of the Canadian West Indian Conference in 1920. A claim is made that we have not carried out in good-faith the terms of the treaty, particularly in reference to steamship service and cold storage facilities. They claim also that, while they were taking large quantities of Canadian goods, particularly flour, we were importing from the United States our tropical fruits, particularly bananas. Last year we purchased two thousand stems of bananas from Jamaica, and from the United States two million stems.

I spent some days conferring with prominent men of the island, both white and coloured; and, with the Governor-General, Sir Samuel

The Budget-Mr. Logan

Wilson spoke at the opening of their Agricultural exhibition. The day following I was tendered a luncheon under the auspices of the Chamber of Commerce, presided over by the Governor-General. More than two hundred of the leading men from different parts of the island were present. I appealed to them as fellow Britishers, and pointed out that, as we had fought together in the Great war to preserve our empire, we should not be quarreling over small matters, such disagreements being generally due to misunderstandings which could be removed by friendly negotiations. At the conclusion of my remarks the Duke of Athol, who is developing a great sugar industry on the island with British capital, made a splendid speech, pointing out that greater trade with Canada would tend to empire-building as much as if the trade were with the Mother Country. A motion was made to accept the invitation of our government, which was enthusiastically and unanimously carried. And I am very glad to say that subsequently the Legislature of the island with but one dissenting voice voted $4,500 for the conference expenses.

Jamaica is the largest of the British West India islands, and the third largest of all the islands of the West Indies, having an area of four thousand four hundred and fifty square miles, and a population of well on to the million mark. Its imports in 1922 amounted to 4,835,393 pounds sterling, made up as follows:

United States 2,209,774

United Kingdom 1,373,252

Canada 647,943

Other countries 604,424

The island is a veritable tropical paradise, The heat in the lowlands is intense; but, on account of the mountainous character of the country, temperate zones are quickly reached. In a very short time one may travel by motor from the .extreme heat of the lowlands, with their jungles and tropical vegetation, to an altitude where it is cool and at night almost cold. The possibilities of the island, particularly in the production of fruit, are enormous. But in some lines production has decreased, largely on account of lack of a steady market. However, I believe the conditions are now improved. Last year about 300,000 barrels of flour were imported, of which Canada supplied 202,048 barrels. The exportations of bananas from the island in 1923 were:

To the United States

9,680,000 stemsTo the United Kingdom

2,758,205 stemsTo Canada

1,923 stemsTo other countries

4,562 stems

In sugar, 15,667 tons were exported in 1923 to Canada, 6,805 tons to the United Kingdom

and 2,660 tons to other countries. These figures are for the calendar year.

The spread of prices from the producer to the consumer of fruit is startling. While I was in Jamaica, bananas were selling at about one-half a cent each. You know what we pay in Canada.

We consume in Canada about 18,000^)00 pounds of grape fruit annually, nearly all of which comes from the United States. The price paid to the producer for grape fruit, of excellent quality and delicious flavour, in Jamaica is about two and a half cents for each grape fruit. In the leading hotels of Canada thirty cents-and in some cases not far away thirty-five cents-is being charged for one-half of a grape fruit.

From Jamaica we proceeded to Santiago de Cuba. The Republic of Cuba has an area of 44,164 square miles, with a population of about three millions, of whom 800,000 are coloured. The staple products are sugar and tobacco. It is the largest sugar-producing country in the world. The sugar crop in 1922-23 was 3,601,056 tons. The total area of the sugar plantations is 1,384,812 acres, and in 1923 there were 125 sugar mills in operation. The trade of the country amounts to nearly oqe billion dollars. Of course, the largest trade is with the United States, with which they have a preferential tariff-reciprocal- of 20 per cent, but the imports from countries other than the United States amount to over $100,000,000 annually. Their imports consist largely of foodstuffs. I remained in Santiago only from noon until the following morning. In that time I was able, through introductions by the manager of the Royal Bank, to discuss trade matters with some leading citizens. There were two complaints made by the people: first, a lack of sufficient steamship communication with Canada, and the fact that there is no one there to officially represent Canada in trade matters. I believe there are great possibilities for increased trade with Santiago de Cuba with its wonderful harbour, but there should be located there a Spanish-speaking trade commissioner, who would look after the eastern part of the island of Cuba. Pickford and Black boats call at this port.

From Santiago de Cuba we proceeded across the island by rail five hundred miles to Havana. Everywhere the land is fertile and the people seem to be prosperous. At Havana, which is a city of about 400,000 people, through the British minister, I held an interview with the Minister for Foreign Affairs, and also had an audience with the president, both of whom expressed warm friendship fro- Canada.

The Budget-Mr. Logan

The consuming possibilities of Cuba are startling. For instance, they import a million dozens of eggs per month. The imports of potatoes for 1923 were valued at $5,482,283. Codfish was imported in 1923 to the value of $2,102,059; wheat flour $8,514,785; and condensed milk to the extent of fifty million pounds. Both cheese and eggs find a ready import market in Cuba, but Canada's share is entirely negligible, and practically all the eggs come from the United States. Salted pork, lard, ham and preserved meats, are imported from the United States to the value of about $5,000,000 per annum. Some Canadian hay comes to Havana by the steamers that br.ng potatoes. We have now one steamer sailing direct from Canada to Havana, and are able to underquote the United States price for hay by about three dollars per ton. Their present prices are from $25 to $27 per ton. Havana imports about 10,000 bales per month. I cannot too strongly urge the immediate appointment of a first-class trade commissioner at Havana, and there should be more frequent steamship communication between our ports and that city as well as other Cuban ports.

While in Havana I was given a luncheon by the Canadian Bankers, and a dinner at the British Legation; and I was able to confer with many leading importers and exporters.

From Cuba I proceeded to Key West and to Miami, and from Miami to Nassau in the Bahamas, where the steamer arrived on the morning of February 21st. The Bahamas are not of very great importance from a trade standpoint; and, like Bermuda, the American influence is very strong. Great attention is paid to the tourist traffic. The government has invested over $2,000,000 in the new Colonial hotel, which is managed and controlled by the Munson Steamship line. I was given a luncheon by the Governor, at which were present the Colonial Secretary, the Speaker of the Assembly, the manager of the Royal Bank, and others; and I was afterwards entertained at Government house and by the Hon. Harcourt Malcolm, who was one of the representatives of the Bahamas at the Canada West India Conference of 1920. I left Nassau, en route to Ottawa, on the 23rd, of February.

I regret I was not able to visit Haiti, the Dominican Republic and Porto Rico. From information which I have secured, I think it very important that we should have steamship communication with both the Republic of Haiti and the Dominican Republic. From the latter last year our imports of sugar were very large, but we sold them very little in return. We should have a Spanish speaking

agent to officially represent Canada in trade matters. Haiti has a total population of over two millions, and the Dominican Republic a population of nearly one million. Haiti buys from the United States goods to the value of over $10,000,000 per year, but the amount purchased from Canada is almost negligible. In 1922 there entered and cleared at the port of Port-au-Prince 251 steam vessels. The imports into this republic from the United States amounted to $6,480,105; from the United Kingdom $2,085,055; but Canada is not mentioned in the Haitian trade returns. The chief imports are cotton goods, iron and steel manufactures, foodstuffs to the value of $4,336,201; machinery, oils, hides. The principal exports are: sugar, to the value of $9,192,172, a considerable portion of which went to Canada; cacao (cocoa) $3 054,071. In 1922, 741 steamers with a total tonnage of 911,596 tons (with cargo) entered in the foreign trade of this republic.

In view of our need of cheaper tropical fruits, and our desire to obtain them from countries under our flag, I beg to recommend that we go a long way in removing customs duties on such fruits coming from these British lands and entering Canada through Canadian seaports. There would be a loss of revenue, but a great blessing should come to the consumers of our country, and the revenues of our transportation systems both by sea and land would be greatly augmented. In fact, such an arrangement should, to a considerable extent, lessen the deficits of our national ships and railways.

I mentioned at the outset, Mr. Speaker, the invitations which I carried from the Prime Minister of this country to attend a conference in Ottawa this spring. I am very glad to say that official acceptances have been received from all with the exception of the Bahamas. And as acceptance has been recommended to the legislature of that colony, which is now in session, by the governor, no doubt a delegate will be appointed within a few days.

There is no doubt that among the requests which will be made by the delegates, will be the abolition of the Dutch standard sugar test, which in the whole world is now retained only by Canada-and Turkey. It is based upon the sugar colour, as established annually by the vision of certain men in Rotterdam, Holland. Among other things, the color standard tends to the importation into Canada from these British West Indies of a deteriorated quality of sugar. I saw, in one of the largest sugar mills, a sugar being produced of beautiful pure crystals, but which actually had to undergo a colouring process in order

The Budget-Mr. Logan

to comply with the Dutch standard. I found, however, that the sugar producers are very reasonable. They realize the importance of the refining industry in Canada, and I do not think they would seriously object to a reasonable standard established by the polariscope test, which is both scienffic and certain; but they do object most strenuously to a standard which depends upon the eyesight of any individual. If the Dutch standard has been abolished in such countries as Great Britain and the United States, why should Canada retain it-along with Turkey?

The two greatest needs to build up a great trade between our country and the British West Indies and other lands in and about the Caribbean sea, are efficient trade commissioners and better transportation facilities not only for freight but for passengers as well. Canadians rarely visit these wonderful countries, and their people rarely come to Canada. We should know each other better, and in the British lands pursue a common policy of trad1-ing within the empire.

In reference to trade commissioners, I beg to recommend that we establish agencies at Bermuda and in all the islands and other lands in and around the Caribbean Sea. I further recommend that in countries such as Martinique, Guadeloupe and Haiti, where only French is spoken, the agent should be a French-speaking Canadian; and that in lands such as Venezuela, Colombia, Panama, Costa Rica and the Dominican Republic as well as Santiago de Cuba, where only Spanish is spoken, the agents should be Spanish-speaking Canadians.

But probably the biggest of all questions is that of transportation. It is admitted by everybody that the present service is unsatisfactory, especially in the combined passenger and freight service to Jamaica. The routes were established and the ships made to suit the treaty. They are not proper freight boats, the passenger accommodation is very meagre, and there is a serious loss in operation. As a matter of fact, I think the annual loss to the Canadian government in operation of this service is in the vicinity of $465,000 and we are continually breaking the terms of the treaty. We agreed to give a fortnightly service. We do not pretend to give more than a three weekly service, and we have not provided, or tried to provide, cold storage.

No new treaty will be possible unless the delegates are assured the above conditions are to be greatly improved. They will ask for a fortnightly service the year round for first-class ships from St. John and Halifax via the eastern group to Demerara and return, and

also a fortnightly service of the same class of ships from Montreal in summer and Halifax and St. John in winter, sailing to the western group, to Jamaica. This will mean the provision of at least six new ships -as well as a side service from Jamaica to British Honduras. These ships should have accommodation for 100 first-class, 30 second-class and 100 third-class, as well as deck passengers, also the most modern equipment for the handling of freight and cold storage for fruit. They should have a sea speed capable of being developed to at least sixteen knots.

There are two ways of providing this service by our government: by contracting with a private shipping company, or with the Canadian Government Merchant Marine Corporation.

The Royal Mail Steam Packet Company has tendered to put four new motor ships on the eastern group service for ten years at a subsidy which amounts to about $534,000 per year, and to maintain a fortnightly service between Halifax and St. John and Demerara. It may be presumed, if they were to tender for the western service, without considering South American ports, they would require an additional $300,000 annually. In ' other words, we would be called upon to pay subsidies amounting to $834,000 per year to a private company. We could hardly expect the British West Indies, British Guiana and British Honduras to contribute more than $200,000 of this amount annually, which would mean even if that amount were contributed there would have to be paid out of the Treasury of Canada, $634,000 per year. At the end of ten years we would have paid the private company, $6,340,000, and the company would own the ships, and all we would have to show would be subsidy receipts.

But suppose we should augment the present Canadian Government Merchant Marine West Indian fleet by the building of six ships, which, I am assured by those competent to know, would be quite sufficient-if the speed I have mentioned were provided-to serve both the eastern and western services, as well as calling at ports along the northern republics of South America. It is estimated they would cost $7,800,000, and would depreciate in value not over 50 per cent in ten years. If the British West Indies would provide an annual contribution of $200,000, we would have $2,000,000 paid to Canada in the ten years. We would therefore be out of pocket $5,800,000, but we would own the ships, which would be worth $3,900,000 making our total loss, even if the ships did not make any oper-

The Budget-Mr. Logan

ating profit, $1,900,000, or $4,440,000 less than if we subsidize a private company. I believe that with the improved trade that is bound to come between Canada and these southern lands, thereby creating new shipping business, we soon would have large profits in operation. Personally I am of the opinion, if the Canadian Government Merchant Marine abandoned every other route on every other sea, the business with the West Indies should be carried on by it, in co-operation with the Canadian National Railways. Incidentally I would recommend that the name Canadian Government Merchant Marine be changed to the Canadian National Steamship Company.

The greatest opposition to the idea of operating this southern service by the Canadian Government Merchant Marine comes from Halifax and St. John. This arises from the fear that they would not have the same frequency of sailings as they have now between these ports and the West Indies. I submit, however, a scheme can be worked out by which the Maritime ports will receive a service far superior to anything they have ever had and that a great improvement would also be given to the St. Lawrence river route, and at the same time, traffic would be provided for the Canadian National Railways, which, we know, is seriously needed to cut down the tremendous deficits.

The proposition is that instead of employing five ships on two separate and distinct runs in two separate and distinct services, six ships be employed, which would make a complete circuit of the West Indies and the northern republics of South America, the ships to sail from Canada weekly and alternate the route. That is to say, in one week this service would be by the eastern group to Demerara, returning via northern South America, Jamaica, Haiti, Cuba and Nassau. The following week the voyage would be via the western route to Nassau, Haiti, Cuba, Jamaica, northern South America, returning via the eastern group. In winter the ships would sail weekly from Halifax and St. John and would alternate between these two ports and Montreal in summer. For instance, a ship would leave Halifax and St. John and proceed via the Leeward and Windward Islands, Barbados and Trinidad, to Demeara. On her return she would call at Trinidad, La Guaya (Venezuela), Curacoa, a port in Colombia, Jamaica, a Cuban and a Haitian port, Nassau, and thence to Montreal.

The week aflter the above sailing from Halifax and St. John, a ship would leave Montreal taking cargo now being handled by the Canadian Forester and the Canadian Fisher, and

proceed, calling at Charlottetown, P.E.I., through the strait of Canso and on by the western group and the South American ports to Demerara, returning via Trinidad, Barbados and the Leeward and Windward Islands, and thence, not back to Montreal, but to St. John and Halifax. The next voyage a week later would start from Halifax and St. John finishing at Montreal, and the next from Montreal finishing at St. John and Halifax This would give a fortnightly service from Halifax and St. John and the same from Montreal, but it would also give a weekly service from Canada.

In the winter, sailings would be the same as in. tlhe summer, except that all the sailings would be from Halifax and St. John, thereby giving them a weekly sendee for the winter months, not only to the points reached now by the present service, but to countries where most important business only awaits direct transportation. The ships would have to be of at least 5,000 or 6,000 gross tons, and be built not only for freight, but for proper passenger accommodation. It may be pointed out that the entire traffic to and from Maritime ports could be handled over the lines of the Canadian National Railways.

This service would mean, first, a weekly passenger and freight service from Canada to all the West Indies and lands in and about the Caribbean sea, from Maritime province ports during the winter time, and a fortnightly service to all these countries from Montreal, Halifax and St. John in summer.

Countries situate on the southern side of the circle where ships would cross, would have a very frequent service, as they could go to or from Canada in either direction. It would give inter-communication between the eastern and western groups of the West Indies, where there is none at present.

A service by which a person could sail from a Canadian port and encircle the Caribbean sea calling at so many intensely interesting and historic places and return to Canada without changing ships would soon become one of the most popular tourist routes in the world.

The present Canadian Government Merchant Marine freight service, from Canada to Demerara, would still be maintained as there would be more tonnage coming north than the fast ships could handle, and if the Royal Mail Steam Packet Company should maintain their freight service, the people of the eastern group would have a weekly service, and even better if the Canadian Pacific Railway does not withdraw from that route.

If the service were performed by the

Canadian Government Merchant Marine,

Private Bills

the new ships would be built in Canada and the crews employed would be Canadians, whereas, any private company would1, in all probability, build their ships in England, or, as recently happened in an EngliA company, in Germany where the cost of production is now very low. The present Royal Mail Steam Packet Company's ships, with the exception of the ship's surgeons, are not manned by Canadians.

Before closing this report, may I refer to the importation of bananas direct to Canada? In 1924 we imported 2,429.656 stems, practically all from the United States. Of these, 1,867,266 stems came into Canada between May and October inclusive. This is a part of the year when the port of Montreal is open, and of course the ports of Halifax and St. John in the east, and Vancouver and other Pacific jports in the west, are open the year round. Vancouver would be the logical distributing point for bananas used west of Winnipeg, while Montreal in the summer months would distribute as far west as, and including, that city. It would not cost more to distribute to central Canada and the middle west through Montreal and Vancouver than it does now from New York and a port on the Pacific. I am making this statement in view of the fact that the request may be made at the conference that there should be a customs duty of say fifty cents a stem imposed on bananas coming from the United States, while West Indian bananas should come in free of duty.

Let me say in conclusion, after my extensive travels and careful investigation, having endeavored to secure my information from the most reliable sources, I am more than ever convinced that in trade with these southern lands lies Canada's opportunity.

It means extensive and ever increasing markets for the products of our soil and our manufacturers, and a reduction in the cost of tropical products to the consumers of Canada.

We have one advantage in that the banks of Canada have blazed the trail, I submit it is up to us to follow.

At six o'clock the House took recess.

After Recess

The House resumed at eight o'clock. PRIVATE BILLS-SECOND READINGS

Bill No. 40, respecting the Ottawa Electric Railway Company.-Mr. Chevrier.

Bill No. 42, to amend the Toronto Harbour . Commissioners Act, 1911.-Mr. Church.

Topic:   THE BUDGET
Subtopic:   CONTINUANCE OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE
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MARCONI WIRELESS TELEGRAPH COMPANY OF CANADA


Mr. PIERRE F. CASGRAIN (Charlevoix-Montmorency) moved the second reading of Bill No. 21, respecting the Marconi Wireless Telegraph Company.


CON

William Alves Boys (Whip of the Conservative Party (1867-1942))

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. W. A. BOYS (South Simoce):

I want to say that I am in no sense sponsor for this bill, but a friend of mine in Ottawa a solicitor, met me yesterday and asked me if I would do what I could to see that the bill was referred to the Private Bills committee. I asked him for a typewritten statement of the purposes and objects of the bill which he gave me and which I now have. I have since referred to the bill and I can see no reason whatever why it should not receive a second reading and be referred to the Private Bills committee. I might briefly refer to the clauses.

The first clause only proposes to change the name of the Marconi Wireless Telegraph Company of Canada, Limited, to the Canadian Marconi Company; its purpose is only to shorten the name. The object of the second clause is to confirm a by-law which received the assent of the shareholders and which reduces the par value of the Shares from $2.50 to $1, the capital stock being maintained at the former figure. The third clause repeals the former clauses seven and eleven and as far as I can see the only change of consequence takes place in clause eleven where, under the former section, bydaws dealing with increasing or reducing the capital stock of the company required two-thirds of the value of the subscribed capital represented, whereas the clause that is new requires two-thirds of the votes cast at the meeting. The fourth clause of the bill permits the company to engage in a wireless or other system of telephony as well as in the work they are now engaged in. I cannot see how there can be much objection to the bill from anybody; it apparently deals almost entirely with internal management. Even if there were any objections they can all be thredied out in the usual way before the Private Bills committee where we can hear representatives of the company and those opposed to the bill, if any. In the absence of the sponsor of the bill I will move its second reading.

Motion agreed to and bill read the second time.

Topic:   MARCONI WIRELESS TELEGRAPH COMPANY OF CANADA
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KNIGHTS OF PYTHIAS OF CANADA


Mr. FRED W. BOWEN (Durham, for Mr. Maybee) moved the second reading of bill No. 38, to incorporate the Knights of Pythias of Canada. Private Bills


LIB
CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

I have not studied the bill but apparently it is one which has for its object the incorporation of the Knights of Pythias, embodying most of the usual fraternal society provisions. Apparently from the powers desired it is sought to take over the United States society which hitherto, apparently, has been carrying on for the members here. The objects of the society are of a social and fraternal character, and there are the usual provisions with respect to insurance fund, death benefits, old age benefits, and the like. I think we might send the measure to the Private Bills committee.

Topic:   KNIGHTS OF PYTHIAS OF CANADA
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LIB

James Alexander Robb (Minister of Immigration and Colonization)

Liberal

Mr. ROBB:

I should like to say before the second reading of the bill passes, in order that it might go on record on behalf of the department, that this is not the Knights of Pythias as understood in Canada. This is a new organization proposing an incorporation of a fraternal society of coloured people particularly. Hon. gentlemen will observe it is " the Knights of Pythias of Africa and Australia " and the department has had some objections filed from the Knights of Pythias incorporated in the United 'States. The department offers no objection to the bill. Indeed it recognizes that the people who are applying for this charter have the same rights as white people to become incorporated for fraternal purposes; but it is just possible that the name may have to be changed when the bill comes before the committee.

Topic:   KNIGHTS OF PYTHIAS OF CANADA
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CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

That would be a matter for the committee I should think.

Topic:   KNIGHTS OF PYTHIAS OF CANADA
Permalink
PRO

Thomas Wakem Caldwell

Progressive

Mr. T. W. CALDWELL (Victoria and Carleton):

There is already a fraternal society known as the Knights of Pythias in Canada which also extends to the United States. I would regret very much if granting these people a charter would override the rights and privileges of the present organization in Canada. I think it will be a serious matter to grant a charter to these people without a full understanding of the bearing it might have on the present organization.

Mr. RiOBB: That is a matter which can

be dealt with in committee.

Motion agreed to and bill read the second time.

Topic:   KNIGHTS OF PYTHIAS OF CANADA
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JOLIETTE AND NORTHERN RAILWAY COMPANY


Mr. CHARLES E. HANNA (West Hastings, for Mr. Denis (Joliette) ) moved the second reading of bill No. 39, respecting Joliette and Northern Railway Company.


CON

Henry Lumley Drayton

Conservative (1867-1942)

Sir HENRY DRAYTON:

I should like to ask the Minister of Railways before the motion is adopted what the present limitation is under the government's policy, as to the amount of securities that may be issued per mile of railway? At one time it was $20,000 per mile, at another time $25,000 per mile, then $30,000 a mile, and then there were special cases where special costs were involved where it went beyond that amount. In this case it is $45,000 a mile. That is something that can be looked into in committee, but it is a matter for the government to deal with.

Topic:   JOLIETTE AND NORTHERN RAILWAY COMPANY
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LIB

George Perry Graham (Minister of Railways and Canals)

Liberal

Mr. GRAHAM:

I am told it will be quite expensive, but I am free to admit that I have not gone into the matter, and I will call the attention of the members of the committee especially to the fact that the question of the amount to which securities may be issued is a vital matter and to watch it closely.

Motion agreed to and bill read the second time.

Topic:   JOLIETTE AND NORTHERN RAILWAY COMPANY
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THE BUDGET

CONTINUATION OF DEBATE ON THE ANNUAL FINANCIAL STATEMENT OF THE ACTING MINISTER OF FINANCE

April 3, 1925