Mr. MEIGHEN:

That applies only to the

15,000 tons. The province has done something in that respect already. Let me carry the minister's mind back. Questions have been hurled across the floor: What would you do? What is your policy? The Minister of Public Works (Mr. King) devotes some minutes to a discussion of our policy, and a misrepresentation of it, by the way. I want to carry the minister's mind back a few years, when a corresponding situation did arise. I think it was in the year 1919; it might have been 1920, but I am very close to the time. Then, in order to relieve the situation in Nova Scotia-where a Liberal government was in power, and when if we had wanted to play politics we could have loaded the blame on the Liberal government in the way hon. gentlemen opposite are trying to do as respects the Conservative government-we did not take that course; we knew the only way to bring relief was to meet the problem of transportation. While we did not take the directorate by the neck and say to them: You must transport coal at a price fixed by us, we did say: You transport the coal at the lowest price possible, and the difference between that and the amount necessary to enable the coal to be bought we will make up. And we did make it up to the extent of many scores of thousands of dollars. By that comparatively modest contribution we kept those districts from hunger, and we prevented such a situation as has presented itself too frequently during the regime of the present administration.

Now, as I see it, this goes to the kernel of the whole policy of this country as respects coal, and other commodities as well of the same character and within the same category as coal. We are never going to solve the coal problem of Canada by standing timidly by and shiveringly asserting: We dare not put on a little more duty; we dare not put up a little of the freight; we dare not do anything for fear the United States will raise the big club against us.

I will not say, I have never said, that you can all at once adopt any means by which Nova Scotia coal on the one hand and Alberta coal on the other will be carried right into the very centre of this country and supply the whole need of Canada at once. I only know two lines on which we can proceed to widen the area, widen the circulation, of the consumption both for Alberta and for Nova Scotia. On neither of these lines has the government the courage to proceed. We must assist transportation; we must assist as

well by stronger protection for the basic industries of the country; and we can only do that, as everybody well knows, as part of a great general policy applicable to the whole production of the country. And it is because this government is tied and hamstrung in respect of general policies that it cannot meet the situation in respect to coal. What has the government proposed to-day? You say my policy is subvention. Is your policy starvation? The government sits helpless and silent. The Minister of Public Works says it is not the time to bring it up. May I ask when would be the time? When the men are in their graves?

Mr. KING (Kootenay):

Not the general

discussion. As to a discussion of the matter of handling the situation at Sydney, this is quite a proper time to deal with it, but it is not so with the general discussion.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Oh, well, I am in entire agreement, but we are not wasting any time in pressing the general phase of the situation on the ministers. We have been pressing it for four years, and if we use a little time today it may save a little more time later. Along the lines I have indicated, a permanent solution can be found. I know of no other line. I know as well that a country in the condition in which we are cannot proceed very fa^t along either line. Something must be done to revive and give new life to industry in Canada before we can get very far anyway; but the last thing in the world to do is to sit down and shake in fear of another country. We have reserves - that will make us quite secure. Give the Canadian producer the Canadian market, strengthen his hold upon that, and it will be better for him than all the markets hon. gentlemen can get anywhere else.

I hope it will not be said that the doctrine we preach has not been at least tried and practised. Why even the members of the government looked in this direction. They looked but they contented themselves with looking. They committed themselves to the practice, but having committed themselves they were afraid to put it into practice. I think they will put it in practice yet, that is if their lingering life sustains them long enough. I know they will put nothing else in practice. They will come to this just as they have come to our point of view on many subjects upon which they formerly opposed us. You will not hear any such objection to this as they made in the last campaign, that it was a bartering policy. You will not hear them saying that in a few years any more than you hear them now denouncing the principle of pro-

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tection. The hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Garland) will support them, and I do n-ot doubt the hon. member for North Winnipeg (Mr. Heaps) will support them too. They will all come behind the government when the government comes to the only solution that is worthy really of permanent consideration and acceptance in this House.

Mr. FORKE:

I should like to ask the

leader of the opposition a question. I do not ask it in any argumentative spirit, but simply in order to obtain information. I am not going to make a speech, but I have listened .to arguments put forward in the hope of hearing a solution of this problem. Has my right hon. friend the leader of the opposition advanced the remarks he has made as a solution of the whole economic difficulty in Cape Breton? It seems to me that what my right hon. friend has said may be a palliative for the present position, but I cannot see that it contains any permanent solution of the matter.

Mr. MEIGIIEN:

I will answer the

question, and am very glad of the chance to do so. No, it is not the whole solution of the matter. Besides assisting transport you have got to put industry in this country on a stable and permanent basis. The existence of every industry you wreck within many hundreds of miles of these coal pits means added work to the coal miners. I may say before I sit down that I was very sorry indeed to see the applause from the hon. member for Brandon (Mr. Forlce) when the hon. member for North Winnipeg made those grave misstatements with respect to the strike in Winnipeg.

Mr. FORKE:

The right hon. gentleman

was not in the House.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I was in the House right afterwards in time to see my hon. friend applaud, and I was in time to see him congratulate the member for North Winnipeg as he went out of the chamber.

Mr. FORKE:

My right hon. friend was not in the House then.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

I saw enough of that.

Hon. CHARLES STEWART (West Edmonton, Minister of the Interior) :

Once again we are discussing the difficulties of the Nova Scotia situation with respect to the coal mining industry in that province. We thought, indeed we fondly hoped, Mr. Speaker, that the steps that were being taken by the new government of that province to reconcile the company and the employees would have settled the problem. 1 agree with the remarks of a 14011-27

good many of the speakers this afternoon that this is a veiy difficult problem to settle; and I want to congratulate my right hon. friend (Mr. Meighen) upon the moderation with which he approached the consideration of the question this evening.

The coal problem of this country is rather a serious one. We have been talking about a national policy for coal, and coal is just as important to the people of the central region of Canada as bread-I think I made that statement once before. I know of no way that you can transport coal from the far east or the far west without increasing the price of that commodity in central Canada.

I have been devoting a good deal of attention to this matter for the past three or four years, and I am willing to accept the statement of hon. gentlemen opposite that perhaps the government have exhibited some hesitancy in coming to a conclusion upon this matter. We voted a subvention for the purpose of transporting coal from Nova Scotia westward. It was used to a very limited' degree-at a time when there was an ample market for the commodity, at a time when the miners were not on strike, but were busily engaged in the industry-perhaps because the aid was not sufficient. The limit was fifty cents per ton, and a very small amount of the subvention was required for the transportation of the fuel at that time. However, I am not going to deal with that phase of the subject; I am going to confine my remarks entirely to the resolution moved by the hon. member (Mr. Johnstone) in which he states that an extremely grave situation is prevalent in the coal mining area of Cape Breton and Glace Bay, and1 that the miners are unable to obtain employment.

Well, Mr. Speaker, does it not occur to hon. members here that if you have a strike lasting over the period this one has lasted, the market formerly occupied by the products of these particular mines is liable to be filled? No one can find fault with the Canadian National Railways for taking the precaution to get a supply of coal in the event of the strike continuing, and1 to some extent the Cape Breton market in that, direction is curtailed for the time being. More than that, owing to the rapid1 utilization of water-power, the invasion of the coal market by electricity and oil burning devices both on land and at sea, the consumption in Canada has been reduced by nearly 25,000,000 tons of coal. The market is a declining one and that is very largely responsible for our difficulty in finding purchasers for coal. More than that; I have before me a statement showing the importations into Nova Scotia last year from the

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United States which totalled 212,387 tons. No doubt the increase in importation was due to the strike.

Mr. HANSON:

Does that include the

anthracite?

Mr. STEWART (West Edmonton):

Yes,

that is the total.

Mr. HANSON:

And the bituminous?

Mr. STEWART (West Edmonton):

Yes.

Into Nova Scotia imports were 178,000 tons bituminous and 33,000 tons of anthracite. Into New Brunswick the total was 45,000 tons of anthracite. I am giving round figures of anthracite from the United States. Then there were 163,000 tons of bituminous, making a total of 209,000 tons; from Great Britain

29,000 tons of anthracite and 5,103 tons of bituminous.

'Mr. EDWARDS (Frontenac-Addington): What is the figure for Prince Edward Island from the United States?

Mr. STEWART (West Edmonton):

I will *give the whole imports for 1925. They are: ,4,624 tons of anthracite, 9,208 tons of bituminous, making a total of 13,832 tons from the United States. From Great Britain we had 507 tons of anthracite and 13,436 tons of .bituminous, making a total of 13,943 tons from Great Britain.

Mr. CAHAN:

Between what years did that total reduction in the gross consumption of Canadian coal take place?

Mr. STEWART (West Edmonton):

During the last seven years, practically. I am not quoting definite figures, but the amounts are approximately correct. I want to show that there is undoubtedly, owing to the strike conditions that prevailed in Nova Scotia, a much larger quantity imported. I notice that for the past two years the quantities of imports into the Maritime provinces have gone up. If conditions had been normal the consumption would have been much the same as it was in 1923, when only 5,566 tons were imported into Prince Edward Island, none from Great Britain. In 1923, 79,000 tons came into Nova Scotia and 133,398 into New Brunswick. Therefore I am assuming that the increased importation of coal into the Maritime provinces was largely due to the strike conditions, and that is adding to our difficulties at the moment.

MR. HANSON: Has the minister investigated to ascertain whether American bituminous coal is not being landed in the Maritime province ports at a price less than the cost of production in the Maritime provinces; in

fMr. C. A. Stewart.]

Other words, that American coal is being dumped into the Maritime provinces?

Mr. STEWART (West Edmonton):

We

are now keeping very closely in touch with that situation all along the boundary. Frankly we did not do so two years ago. That matter was brought to our attention with regard to the importations, but I do not think that that condition prevails to-day or has prevailed during this year. Of course my hon. friend must bear in mind that the prevailing cost of coal in the United States has been very low, about one-half of that prevalent in the Nova Scotia field. That being the case, it is not to be wondered at that when the cessation of the strike took place in Nova Scotia a serious condition arose with respect to markets. Let us be fair, because I for one do not pretend for a single moment to play politics with this question; I think it is too serious for that. When this matter was brought to the attention of Sir Henry Thornton by the Premier of Nova Scotia he at once issued an order for the purchase of 120,000 tons of coal to be banked for delivery by water transportation in the spring, and I wish to give due credit to Premier Rhodes for his attempt to settle this vexed question. Of course it is not a new thing to order a supply of coal to be banked, to be shipped when the price is fixed, but I ascertained from the deputy minister since the House rose at six o'clock that the order stands for 120,000 tons of bituminous coal. No change has been made in the method of ordering the coal. The railways are guaranteeing to take it. I have not been in the coal mining area, although I have been closely identified with the coal question for the past two years; but I am informed that that is the method that has always been followed, and when the price is fixed, that price prevails for the output of the mine that is banked for the use of the railways. So that it is nothing new; it is just the old method of ordering the coal. Premier Rhodes lost no time, I am informed, in conveying this offer to the company.

Now in so far as the movement of the 15,000 tons is concerned, and the request that the railways move it with a reduction in the rates, I agree entirely with my hon. friend. I think he has taken the proper position. We have a rate-governing body in Canada to whom the question of rates is referred. That body is sitting to-day, dealing with the construction of a new freight structure covering the whole of Canada. Under the department over which I preside there is what is known as a fuel board. After all, we have not been dealing with an acute fuel situation, because

[DOT] 419

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these matters are managed by the fuel controllers in the various provinces who were appointed-and let me give my hon, friend due credit-during his regime, the work being carried out under the chairmanship of Mr. Magrath. That same body is active in another direction. We have been investigating a substitute fuel for the anthracite in the hope of materially assisting the consumers We have met with some success, but we are still watching the general situation, and since this discussion has arisen we have received word from the Ontario Fuel Controller, Mr. Ellis, who points out that with few exceptions-and I have his report before me-the situation is not serious in Ontario, but that it may become so if severe weather conditions continue for any considerable period of time. True, there are districts in Ontario where they have not been getting their complete fuel supply. We were notified of that two months ago, but they have got along up to the present. As a matter of fact on the 1st ol December, 1925, Ontario had a fuel supply to carry it through the winter, with the exception of some 800,000 tons which would entirely meet the requirements of that province. Some coal has been coming in since. I mention these figures to show that the fuel situation in Ontario has not reached a very acute stage. More than that, there are sufficient supplies in Montreal to meet the needs there for a considerable time, and no complaint is offered in that territory. I merely mention these things to point out to the House that the government have been keeping a careful watch on the situation, realizing that if the anthracite supply of the United States is shut off it may create in Canada a rather serious situation.

I say, Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the government that if the situation is as serious as has been represented-and I have no doubt it is, because I think my hon. friends are trying to place the situation fairly and squarely before us-this government will do everything it can to assist in bringing to a consummation that order by Sir Henry Thornton, to make it definite and clear and to do so at once.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Hear, hear.

Mr. STEWART (West Edmonton):

It is the desire of the government to bring about a thorough understanding between the provincial government, the mining companies and the railways, and if any misunderstanding exists, to do their best to have it cleared up at once. I wish it to be distinctly, understood that we in no way desire to interfere with the running 14011-27J

of the railway. That is one thing that we have endeavoured to leave entirely to Sir Henry Thornton and his board. I do not think the government of the day are finding any fault with the operation of the Canadian National under the management of Sir Henry Thornton. But if the people are in distress, the government stands ready to supplement action that should and must be taken by the local government.

With respect to the movement of the

15,000 tons of coal, for the past week I have been discussing with members of the government what we might do in connection with the situation in the west as well as in the east, because I view them from exactly the same standpoint. I am instructed to say that where the situation becomes acute, we are prepared as a government to recommend to the House that we step in and take our fair share of the responsibility, financial or otherwise, in assisting to alleviate a difficult situation of that kind. We stand willing and ready to do that for the movement of the 15,000 tons. As I pointed out a few minutes ago, this is not new for us; we have done it before and we are ready to do it again, ready to meet emergencies of this kind, whether they be in the coal fields or elsewhere in this Dominion where people find themselves in distress and difficulty. But I want to make it clear that we shall do so in conjunction with the government of the province affected. That is the situation in a nutshell. I am prepared to-night to get into communication with the government of Nova Scotia-that is the medium through which the railway and the government have been acting-and to make the offer that we are ready and willing to assist. This quantity of coal seems so small as not to provide relief at all; but if it will do what hon. gentlemen opposite say it will, to relieve a serious situation, I am interested in the movement of this quantity. But it appears to me that the important thing for that community is to have arrangements completed for the sale and banking of the 120,000 tons so as to give real relief to the community by way of work.

Only a few weeks ago I had a request from Alberta to make an exchange of lands in order that the Minister of Public Works of that province might put the unemployed1 of Edmonton and other centres to work cutting brush. We did not hesitate for a single moment. That exchange was offered and I hope, if unemployment existed there, it has been met, by providing relief by way of employment rather than by way of doles. The

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$8,000 guarantee by the government of Nova Scotia is not a very large amount to be expended by any provincial government for relief but would be very much better expended in giving assistance by way of rate subventions and providing work for the unemployed rather than handing out doles. That will be our policy.

With respect to the general policy, this government does not propose to increase duties on coal or any other commodity. This government will, within a few days, name a commission whose duty it will be to investigate every industry in this Dominion and to prepare a report in order that we may know definitely where we stand with respect to any of those industries.

May I say in reply to my right hon. friend that no hon. member would be prouder than he, had he been successful on the 29th of October, and no one would be declaiming more loudly in this House about the prosperity that had thereby come to Canada than my right hon. friend would be to-night?