Mr. JOHNSTONE (Cape Breton North-Victoria) :

May I tell the minister that the

reason the ooal companies are not banking their coal at the present time is because the markets and the consumers db not want banked coal?

Mr. MACDONALD (Antigonish-Guysbor-ough):

If my hon. friend will only wait and

not interrupt me I will come to that point. My hon. friend from Inverness states that last year the company did not bank its coal and asked me why. I do not know. There is no reason that I know of why the same course of business could not have been carried on that had been pursued up to that time. Unfortunately a strike occurred there ladt year and there was a change of government in the province. The provincial government appointed a commission of inquiry and that commission reported about ten days ago. Strange to say, in its report it recommended that not only should there be no increase but that the wages should go back to where they were before the change was made last year.

Mr. MEIGHEN:

Was the coal not banked last year?

Mr. MACDONALD (Antigonish-Guysbor-ough):

I understand not and perhaps the

strike was the reason.

Mr. MACLEAN (York):

What company?

Mr. MACDONALD (Antigonish-Guysbor-ough):

The British Empire Steel Corporation. Let us come to the situation this year. In the counties of Cumberland and Pictou, and so far as I know, Inverness, the work is going on fairly steadily, but the work has ceased to a very great extent according to the Statement of my hon. friend. What did the government have to do with this matter? The right hon. gentleman who leads the government received a telegram on January 15 from the secretary of the citizen's committee, of the town of Glace Bay, which reads as follows:

Unemployment situation in Glace Bay most acute and 1,500 families have been fed by dole from town funds. These funds now exhausted and further relief urgent. Respectfully ask your government provide relief fund and also urge upon Sir Henry Thornton need for coal orders from C.N.R. Telegram also forwarded Mr. Meighen.

The matter being referred to me for consideration in the illness of the Prime Minister, 1 wired on January 18, to the secretary of the citizens' committee, Glace Bay, as follows:

Referring to your telegram to the Prime Minister of January 15, our information has been that the situation was being dealt with by municipal and provincial authorities. We shall be glad to have fuller and more complete information as to the exact conditions.

I saw in the press of Nova Scotia that a delegation from Glace Bay had gone to see Premier Rhodes and that he had agreed to guarantee the bonds of the town of Glace Bay as being the contribution which the provincial government was prepared to make. That is the local situation. I also saw the statement that a delegation had gone from Sydney Mines to see Premier Rhodes and did not get any satisfaction or assistance from him, but so far as I am advised no communication has been received by this government from Sydney Mines, with regard to the conditions there. This is the first occasion the matter was called to the attention of the government. What was done in the matter? Sir Henrv Thornton was here on Friday, and, as representing the province, I saw Sir Henry, and, seeing in the press that he had had a communication from Premier Rhodes in regard to the subject, I said to him, " Have you had any difficulty in taking banked coal from this company, so as to enable the men to work down there as they did in previous years?" He said, " I have looked into the situation and [DOT] wrote Premier Rhodes this morning stating that we are prepared to take 120,000 tons of coal to be banked during the winter, from the British Empire Steel Company, that coal to be transported in the spring to Montreal ". I said to him. " Has that arrangement been made?" He said, " We have written to the British Empire Steel Company, and have advised Premier Rhodes to that effect."

Now on this basis of 120,000 tons to be banked, which is sold in advance to the Canadian National Railways, the British Empire Steel Company are as a matter of fact refusing to go on as they did in previous years. If they proceeded as in previous years it would obviate the necessity of having this matter considered by parliament. Hon. members will all agree with me that if the practice under which Cape Breton trade has always proceeded and prospered for twenty-five years, had been continued this year, that would have been much better than asking Sir Henry Thornton to haul coal from the furthermost points at which it has had to be hauled to Montreal. Why should not the coal miners of Cumberland and Pictou countv. who have been working perhaps three days a week only, desire to have their coal hauled first, because it would be necessarily hauled at a lower rate?

Nova Scotia Miners

That is the situation so far as it contributes to any conditions which might arise there.

Now here is the situation. Everybody in the House knows that in individual cases of difficulty, it is the primary duty of the municipal authorities to deal with the matter. If it gets beyond the municipal authorities then it is for the provincial authorities. Apparently up to date Premier Rhodes has not thought it necessary to do anything beyond guaranteeing the bonds of the town. They have reached a situation down there where the bonds are not worth being guaranteed.

This government recognizes that in a case of urgent necessity we would deal with the matter where we saw the provincial authorities had taken steps which were inadequate and where they realized the situation to be beyond their power to deal wdth. That is only a natural proposition.

I do submit that if Sir Henry Thornton orders, as he has intimated he has ordered in advance, 120,COO tons of banked coal from the British Empire Steel Corporation, there is no reason why these mines should not be operating, and there is no reason why these mines should not be operated, and there is no reason why the British Empire Steel Corporation should not go on and bank other coal, and thus be in a position to sell to the business interests in Montreal as their predecessors have done in past years, and keep their workmen who are high class men in every way at work steadily.

Mr. THOMAS CANTLEY (Pictou):

I ask hon. members of the House to be indulgent to me, in view of my lack of experience in speaking before this hon. Chamber. I was very much interested in the attempt made by my hon. friend the Minister of National Defence to explain away a situation which practically does not exist. He asks what the government has to do with the matter, and refers to the proposal put before the country by Sir Henry Thornton to take 120,000 tons of banked coal from the Cape Breton colliery. I ask him, why 'he should not? The railways have always done it since coal has been shipped to the St. Lawrence market.

Mr. MACDONALD (Antigonish-Cuysbor-ugh):

That is w'hat I said.

Mr. CANTLEY:

Pardon me. The House only last year learned that the officers of the Canadian National Railways first refused to take banked coal. Coal has been coming up from Cape Breton and Pictou for many years. I can very well remember this, and until last year I did not know of a single case (Mr. E. M. MardonaUl.]

in which banked coal was refused. Last year the officers of the railway went down to Montreal and rejected the cargoes of two steamers of about eight or ten thousand tons. That was the first occasion so far as I know on which this point was raised. Sir ILcnrv Thornton makes a gesture and says, "I will accept and give you an order for 120,000 tons of coal". That is on his terms and at his price. I am informed that at the present time the people who sell the coal have not been able to reach any understanding with the officers of the railway in regard to the price to be paid for that or any other coal to be delivered during the present year. It is all very well for my hon. friend to say that Sir Henry Thornton is ready to take 120,000 tons of banked coal, but up to the hour we came into this House, so far as I can learn, no arrangement has been made. I have asked the representative of the Besco corporation here and he says that so far as he knows no arrangement has been concluded with regard to this question of the order for next year. One hundred and twenty thousand tons is 20 per cent of the consumption of the Canadian National Railways bought in Cape Breton. That is about the proportion of coal which has been banked and delivered annually to the railway in the St. Lawrence region during recent years. There was banked at Glace Bay and the other banking stations in Cape Breton during the past year quantities as high as 180,000. 200,000 and 220,000 tons.

Now I notice that this same question was before the House last year, on the 24th February, practically eleven months ago, and the member who sat on the opposite side as Minister of Labour made the remark that coal had never been banked at Sydney Mines, and that there were no facilities for banking it. I 'happened to be the general manager of Scotia Colleries for about twenty years, and we unfortunately had to bank coal and did bank it over a long series of years, to the extent of forty or fifty thousand tons dr more. Nobody wants to bank coal if they can avoid it, because for every ton of coal put on the bank somebody has to lose fifty cents. Hon. members can understand that under those conditions no company wants to bank coal if it can avoid doing so. If winter employment is to be found for the miners of Cape Breton, it is essential that practically all the coal that is mined between the close and the opening of navigation be banked. On the mainland we are more fortunate because a large proportion of the coal mined there during the winter is consumed during the winter, being sent off by rail to various

Nova Scotia Miners

sections of the Maritime provinces and farchei west. The Minister of National Defence (Mr. Macdonald) is almost correct when he says that little or no coal is shipped from Cape Breton by rail during the winter months. I would not say that none is shipped, but in a general way comparatively little is shipped by rail. Why? Simply because we knew in the past we could ship our banked coal during the summer in the ordinary way mixed with freslh run-of-mine. Prior to this great importation from abroad to show us how to run our railways, every mine was able to ship run-of-mine with a proportion of banked coal. Why the change? His statement that he is now prepared to accept 120,000 tons of banked coal is no gratuity offered to the people of the Maritime provinces. Why did he say that? The only reason I know of is this: Last year, as we all know, there was

a plethora of coal in the markets of this continent at all events, and he thought he saw an opportunity to take advantage of that situation. That, of course, is quite permissible. But when there arises a condition of affairs such as exists in Cape Breton to-day, where hundreds of men and thousands of their dependents are hungry, that is not the time to put the screws on and say: We will not

accept anything but fresh-mined coal. The solution that is proposed is so simple that I am surprised a man of the astuteness of Sir Henry Thornton has not at once said: Yes.

of course I will do it. What is the solution? He has been asked to take from the southern area of Cape Breton what he always took before, namely, his proportion of fresh-mined coal and his proportion of banked coal. He is asked to do nothing more than his predecessors did for forty years.

As regards Cape Breton North, all that was asked of him by my good friend the hon. member for Cape Breton North-Victoria (Mr. Johnstone) was that he should give a rate equivalent to the rate from Alberta to Toronto, which figures out at about 35 mills per ton mile. The mileage is 086 miles, so that this amounts to about $3.25 as against the regular rate of $4.50. He was asked to do that only in regard to 15,000 tons of coal, 6,000 tons a month during the two and a half months between now and April. What does this amount to? Supposing he lost a dollar a ton on it-and I do not admit he will lose a dollar-it would amount to only $15,000. What is that to a railway that has a deficit of $60,000,000? I cannot understand the way in which he deals with the whole proposal because the amount involved is so small.

Mr. MACDONALD (Antigonish-Guysbor-ough):

Do I understand that a rate of the

same kind was also asked from Stellarton and from Springhill?

Mr. CANTLEY:

I know of no rate being asked for except on the quantity that I refer to: 6,000 tons a month for the next two and a half months. I do not admit the railway cannot haul that coal for that money, for this reason: They are hauling hundreds of cars down to Cape Breton which are coming back light. Those cars have to be hauled back in any case. This amounts to only four carloads a day hauled over the railway from Sydney Mines to Montreal at a rate of $3.25 a ton. Further, Mr. Speaker, if there were a loss, the government could easily have provided for it. There was in the estimates of 1024-25 an item of $200,000 covering assistance towards the shipment of coal from the Maritime and western provinces, and only about $50,000 was expended. The balance lapsed on the 31st March, 1025, and it was not revoted. If I am correct in my understanding of the situation, that amount was available by Governor General's warrant as being an unexpended part of a vote, and it could have been devoted to making up any shortage, if there were a shortage, in the cost of moving that coal.

As regards the character of the men who are working in the collieries of Cape Breton, and particularly those of North Cape Breton, Sydney Mines, I had the proud privilege of being their general manager for twenty years, and there is no finer body of men in this country, either ,in the houses of parliament or amongst workers on the farms, in the mines or anywhere else. We have men there who, on occasions of danger following explosions and fires, have exhibited heroism unexcelled by any other men in any country, at any time, or in any war. These men deserve some consideration from this House. Are we going to balk on a question as small as the pittance represented by the loss, if there be any loss, in hauling this coal for $3.25 a ton? At any rate, this loss will not exceed a few thousand dollars. The House and the country should take this matter into consideration and deal with it promptly and effectively.

Mr. C. H. CAHAN (St. Lawrenee-St. George):

Mr. Speaker, I certainly cannot be

accused of having any undue affection for the British Empire Steel Corporation or any of its predecessors. My history on the coal question for the past thirty years would belie any such insinuation as that. But I do think, if the right hon. leader of the government were

Nova Scotia Miners

in his. seat to-day, he might properly be reminded of the policy which he enunciated in 1921 to the people of Nova Scotia and upon which he received the support of so many constituencies in that province. Someone suggests the "solid sixteen." Speaking at Amherst, the capital of one of the coal counties, namely, Cumberland, on October 4, before an audience estimated at five or six thousand people, the right hon. gentleman first repudiated his free trade policy and then announced the policy of his government with respect to coal and the transportation of coal to the markets of the upper provinces. He said:

Free trade is not the policy of the Liberal party. If it were, I would oppose it, because I believe it would bring disaster to our industries and remove from the fanners the home market which is practically the only market that they have left. Free trade may be all right for the wealthy grain growers of the west, whose wheat goes to the foreign markets and who do not have to worry about selling their products at home, but it would mean paralysis in the Maritime provinces.

Then the right hon. gentleman proceeded:

I am a firm believer in the establishment of a national coal policy for Canada. No country, especially a country with cold winters, which depends on a foreign nation for its fuel, can claim to be independent of that nation.

Then he proceeded to announce his policy.

Every pound of coal purchased by the government should be mined by Canadian miners and transported over government railways to the points of consumption. Coal required by other consumers in Canada should be carried at cost.

That was the policy which the right hon. gentleman announced and upon which he received the solid support of the constituencies of Nova Scotia in 1921. I think, Mr. Speaker, the difficulties with regard to coal in Nova Scotia would have been satisfactorily settled before now if the right hon. gentleman had put that policy into force during the last five years. To this I would simply add that so long as Canada is dependent upon the coal miners of the United States for its fuel supply, just so long must Canada bend the knee to the United States whenever they make, as they have made, unjust demands of the people and the government of this county. And until we secure in Canada an adequate fuel supply independent of the United States, Canada's political, economic and financial independence of the United States cannot be fully assured.

Hon. R. J. M ANION (Fort William):

For two or three years in this House we have been listening to the discussion of this question and it appears to me that each year the matter is becoming more acute. I admit that I do not know very much about conditions in the coal mines of Nova Scotia but I do

know this that any man who sits in this House and follows the discussions which we have been hearing for the past two or three years, particularly of the deplorable conditions which prevail down in that part of the country, must if he has any red blood in his veins feel a great sympathy for those people. Nobody can hear the tale of sorrow which we have heard in regard to the people in these afflicted sections of Nova Scotia without being impressed with the necessity for action on the part of the government to bring about some solution of the question. Not only today have we heard the question of the difficulties among the coal miners of Nova Scotia debated, and debated so ably by hon. gentlemen on this side of the House; but we have heard it in relation to other parts of the country than Nova Scotia. We have heard the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Garland) read to this House a telegram indicating the unfortunate state of affairs among the coal miners of the province of Alberta. The fact is that the coal miners at both extremes of the country are in a bad way, and what is overwhelmingly obvious is that we require some sort of policy in Canada which will put an end to these deplorable conditions by making it possible for us to use Canadian coal hauled on Canadian railways rather than American coal transported on American boats. Anyone who has followed the trend of affairs in Canada during the past two or three years must have been struck with one significant fact. A Liberal government had been in power in the province of Nova Scotia for some forty years and during the last year of that lengthy regime a very serious coal strike occurred in the province. That Liberal government went out of office and left that strike in progress, a strike that had lasted for something over five months. And right after the Liberal party was defeated in the province and Mr. Rhodes was returned to power the Conservative government elected in the province succeeded in settling the strike within three weeks.

Oh, oh.

Mr. MANION:

I do not know why my

hon. friends laugh; the facts are as I state them. No one can deny that the strike was settled within three weeks of the return to power of the Conservative party of Nova Scotia, and the only interim of quiet we have had in the troublous conditions that have existed in Nova Scotia has been during the short time since the Hon. Mr. Rhodes has been in power. It is true that he has not settled the whole question but we must re-

Nova Scotia Miners

member that the matter is one that affects the Dominion at large. But he did settle the strike after he had been three weeks in power whereas the Liberal party after forty years of administration went out of office leaving the strike absolutely untouched. The only thing they attempted to do was to invite the troops of this Dominion to go and fight with the miners of Nova Scotia.

Why should we have so serious a coal problem in this country to-day when we have the second largest coal deposits in the world? What we need is a Canadian policy to handle Canadian coal for the Canadian consumers. That is what we need. But how can we get a policy of any kind when we have not even the suggestion of a government?

Why do they not

resign?

Mr. MANION:

They should have resigned long ago and allowed a government to come in that would have had the courage to introduce a sound policy.

Mr. MACDONALD (Antigonish-Guysbor-ough):

We should have resigned to let you

in.

Mr. MANION:

So far as that goes we

could not be worse than my hon. friend's government. The party opposite has been in office for four years and of all the poor governments in the history of the world that administration has been the worst. I ask again, how are we to expect a policy of any kind when we have not a government nor even a head that represents one?

Mr. MACDONALD (Antigonish-Guysbor-ough):

You are getting mad now.