Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):

With respect to experimental work that will be carried on in behalf of industry, may we presume that, just as in the case of the Mellon institute, industry will have to meet the cost of the experiment?

Mr. STEWART (Edmonton):

That is a

little difficult to answer. If the investigation is directly attributable to the industry the answer would be yes; but if it relates to a matter of general importance then it will have to be undertaken by the government itself.

Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):

My question had reference only to the request from a certain industry that the work in the laboratory be turned into the direction of solving a particular problem in which that industry was interested. In such a case I take it the industry would have to pay the cost of the experiment?

Mr. STEWART (Edmonton):

Quite. That is the method pursued in most countries in which I have had the opportunity of making a study of this matter. It is identical with the course pursued in the United States, and I see no reason why there should be any change in that respect in Canada.

National Research-Mr. Cahan

Mr. McGIBBON:

In the case of duties

delegated to provincial universities, will a direct voice be still maintained in Ottawa?

Mr. STEWART (Edmonton):

The national council will supervise the work in order to effect co-ordination and prevent overlapping. Take the province of Manitoba, for instance, where investigation is going on now in connection with wheat rust. I merely cite the work there as an example of what can be done in that direction. It is very important to the province of Manitoba, and quite logical, that the work should be given to the province to undertake in order that it may solve the problem if that be at all possible. Not, may I say, that that fact detracts for a single moment from the general interests that we have in the subject.

That is all I have to say, Mr. Speaker, in the matter, except to add this: I welcome the speeches of all the hon- members who have expressed their views on this question- I listened with very great interest to an address by Professor McLennan in the Chateau Laurier, but unfortunately he was speaking almost entirely to technical men and I said to him then: It is not very much use talking to men who are thoroughly informed. What we want to do is to go out into the country and get the public to understand the necessity of thorough scientific research. I suggested to Professor McLennan at that time that if his lecture were delivered to an audience of business men it would have very much more effect than if delivered to technical men. I think the members of the house can spread this gospel very acceptably. If they will do that throughout the length and breadth of the country and stimulate the public interest it will strengthen public opinion in favour of granting the necessary money and the necessary encouragement, and will have the effect of promoting the development of this work in connection with our universities.

Mr. C. H. CAHAN (St. Lawrence-St. George):

I think that we on this side of the house appreciate very much indeed the remarks of the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Malcolm) and if he is to have the direction and control of this work, so far as the government is concerned, I should like to suggest to him that I know of no department of human endeavour upon which large sums of money may be so uselessly and inefficiently expended as upon national research. In many parts of the United States they have attempted, by way of industrial research, to start from the elements up, thinking that it was quite unworthy of their institutions that they

should profit by the results of the scientific investigations made during the past fifty years by other countries. That is one way of spending public money, or money privately contributed, most inefficiently and uselessly, and I suggest to the Minister of Trade and Commerce, or to the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Stewart), whoever may have the matter in charge, that the results of scientific research in every country of the world, except so far as it is made confidentially by private industry, is open to them to-day, and that they should profit to the utmost by the attainments and the achievements of other nations, up to the present time.

To do that Germany followed this method: She placed in every industrial country of the world some of the brightest young men out of her technical schools, keeping them abroad sometimes five, or six or seven years, to become acquainted with the most approved methods in engineering and in chemistry in which she has herself been so successful. Japan followed Germany's example. During the war I was temporarily in charge, as chairman of a board, of some seventy or eighty large engineering firms and the work which they were doing, and we had a request from the Japanese government to permit certain of their young men, whom they were sending abroad, to have access to the work which was being done and to be informed as to the results which were being accomplished. Japan placed large numbers of young men in England, in the United States, and in Canada in order that they might ascertain the methods and the processes which were being utilized to achieve certain satisfactory results, and they have profited since by the information which these young men took back with them.

I quite agree with the purport of the remarks of the Minister of Trade and Commerce. I think it is satisfactory indeed that we have a gentleman in his office with the ideals and with the wide view of industrial conditions to which he has given expression to-night. But I suggest to him that his institute or his council of national research, by whatever name it may be called, should endeavour to place before the public, and especially before the industries of Canada, the results achieved by the industries of all foreign countries in the same line of work, in so far as their attainments may be made public; and if he were to publish from time to time some leaflets showing the results of these investigations abroad similar to the commercial reports which he now issues-many of which I, though not a commercial man, find most interesting indeed, although I think

National Research-Mr. Church

they may be improved in some respects with time-if these results were made known to our industries, it would help very much I believe in assisting our industrial research departments to achieve still better results. Further I think they should take into consideration, as they intend to do, the development of scientific research in our own educational institutions. We have, I know, in my own native province of Nova Scotia, been doing for some time very considerable advantageous and beneficial work for that community. In the city of Montreal during the last five years the provincial government, through one institution there, has been training young men as efficiently as they have ever been trained in any government institution in this country. In addition to that, there is technical training being carried on by McGill university. Those young men who are being so trained should be utilized by the council and sent abroad wherever there are industries being prosecuted that are akin to those we are undertaking here, and in which we are making research, so that they can study the processes in use abroad and bring home to us the latest scientific attainments of foreign countries for application to our industries here. We should not attempt in Canada to extend and diffuse our efforts over the whole broad field of industrial research, because to place our institutions on such a plane, and assure even moderate success, would take the entire revenues of this country; but by utilizing the information which is available to us abroad, and applying it t'o our own necessities, we will, I am sure, achieve the best results in the work which has been outlined by the Minister of Trade and Commerce.

Mr. T. L. CHURCH (Toronto Northwest):

The resolution before the housei Mr. Speaker, asks for a national research institute. Nero never fiddled while Rome burned like this government has done on this question, and the first thing Canada should do in the way of research is to dig up an all-Canadian tariff policy that will keep Canadians in Canada and give them a job in their own country. That is the first great comer stone in a scientific and industrial research policy.

We have one useless commission now dealing with industrial and scientific research known as the tariff board, to which the main economic questions of this country have been referred. We are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on that board, which fiddles with the tariff on behalf of the government while thousands of young Canadians go to the States in search of a job.

You can find out more about research in this country or the lack of it in the death and marriage notices in the papers than you could learn from the statements of the two ministers here to-night. Just the other day I read of a railway man 48 years of age having been killed in Toronto. One of his sons came home from Detroit just recently to get married, and now his other two sons, twenty and eighteen years of age respectively, have also come home from Detroit, where they had gone to get a job, for the funeral. These men along with thousands of other young Canadians have been driven across the border because of the lack of knowledge and study and research on the part of the government in the matter of a proper economic policy for this country. The Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Malcolm) is not going the right way about solving this problem. He was in England not long ago. I wonder why he did not bring before the house the recommendations of the empire marketing board in regard to agriculture and industry of all kinds. It would have been better for him to do that than to create another large spending government department to spend money like the tariff board is doing. The government should do something practical. Let them lay down a policy of giving grants to the different universities that are carrying on research work in different lines-medicine at McGill, for instance, and science and medicine at Toronto university.

I should just like to quote one paragraph of the report of the empire marketing board of London, England, and suggest to the two ministers who have spoken to-night that if they want to do something practical along the line of scientific and industrial research they should provide the members of this house with a copy of that report, and act on its recommendations. Here is that board's recommendation on research:-

The board has made no attempt itself to engage directly in scientific research. Its proper part was seen clearly from the outset to be that of fortifying existing scientific institutions in such measure as would enable them to intensify or develop their work, and of making possible the establishment of new institutions to meet new and proven needs. Moreover, in deciding upon the allocation of grants for research, the board has consistently been guided by the different government organizations, whether at home or overseas, that tvere best qualified to advise it.

I suggest to the minister that instead of providing another large institute he should utilize the organizations that are already in existence carrying on scientific research, namely, the universities. There is in Toronto one scientific organization that has been in

National Research-Mr. Church

existence for from forty to fifty years-the Canadian institute on College street.

As I said when speaking in the house on this question two or three years ago, everybody agrees with the necessity for scientific research. As Premier Baldwin of Great Britain says, "shock absorbers" are necessary in industry. Take the radio, for instance. As I said in a speech on the budget in 1926, from which I now quote, "it almost ousted the phonograph, but the makers of the latter instrument were forced to make a better product, and it kept its place. Gas illumination was almost ruined by electric light, and the gas mantle saved it. Nickel companies were satisfied to produce for warfare purposes only, but now they are turning to many useful domestic lines. Coal fuel is in a bad way; this industry had no shock absorbers because it was of the opinion that it had a perpetual monopoly, when along came petroleum and gasoline. Great Britain, United States, Germany and Canada are countries where the coal business is in a bad way. The by-products of coal can and should be utilized, and will give larger profits than the raw product itself; I predict that in twenty years every coal mine in the country will make liquid fuel at the mine. According to the Montreal papers the Canadian Pacific Railway have placed orders for more coal burning locomotives, but the oil burning car has come to stay. A new type of gasoline which is now being put on the market will revolutionize the type of motors used in automobiles. The vast future of nitrogen will cause a great upheaval in agriculture. Every industry is being revolutionized by new scientific discoveries. If business is not associated with scientific men, business will go to the wall. The national research council is doing good work, and can keep industry informed of what is going on. It can show the time to draw in on one business and expand on another, and any banker should know how that information will affect industry."

If the minister wants to do something practical in scientific research, let him give grants on a standard basis and let him help the universities that are carrying on this work. Two years ago practically the entire class in electrical engineering at one of our large universities had to go to the United States to look for jobs, notwithstanding the magnificent development of our water powers. The government should lay down the basis and specifications on this question on which universities could get grants. Many of our most brilliant students who have won the highest honours in medicine, scientific chem-

istry, and other branches of scientific work, have to take menial jobs as cooks and waiters on the boats on the great lakes and the St. Lawrence in the summertime; they should be engaged on research work by a government policy. So I appeal to the minister to do something practical and give more money to the universities and hospitals and science schools, which have been pioneers in research work.

We have listened to a good' many speeches on scientific research to-night. There are too many of these Neros fiddling on their violins to the tune of scientific research, about which they know nothing. A proper tariff policy would do more for this country in one week than any other agency I know of for scientific and industrial research.

Scientific industrial research can do nothing to aid the manufacturers of Canada without at the same time helping the manufacturers of the United States, and any money that we spend on scientific research work in this country will benefit also the people of the United States. As I said before, the main research we want is a research which will keep our raw materials in our own country, and a research for a tariff policy which will stop the spending in the United States of 8600,000,000 of Canadian money for high priced American goods from that country, many of which are made out of our raw materials. We pay for these goods in the raw materials of our country. These raw materials will soon, be gone, unless we find a scientific research and industrial tariff policy that will provide employment for the. men of Canada, 88,000 of whom are driven out of Canada and sent to the United States every year. These 600,000 Canadians-or 88,000 per year, as I have figured it out

have had an overdose of research work and have gone to the States to look for a job. What do these 600,000 noble Romans care for the violin playing of the Neros on the government side who fiddle with this question here? How will this scientific research proposal now benefit them?

I think the government should co-ordinate its work in this direction with the scientific research work of the universities, in reference not only to medicine and manufactures, but to electricity, chemistry, and by-producte as well, and instead of imposing on the taxpayers of the country another large government department with a lot of officials, it would be far better if the government adopted the policy of the empire marketing board in England, where the government lays down u

National Research-Mr. Cantley

specification for the universities, where those engaged in industrial and scientific research can qualify for grants.

It seems the government policy of the country so far is search and research to discover capital on the seven seas where we have not an ambassador. That is the limit of our research. I commend the wisdom of the member who brought this matter before the house, but I believe you would get far better results from a policy that would hand the money to universities and other departments I have named, to spend on a standard government plan and specification. I believe the main -research which the country wants is a research policy that will frame a Canadian tariff that will provide work in Canada for the Canadians, so that we can keep our young men at home. A large number of Canadian graduates of universities go to the States annually to make a living, not only in chemistry, but in other trades and professions. We would get far better results if we could formulate a Canadian tariff and economic policy that would keep them at home.

Mr. THOMAS CANTLEY (Pictou):

I

hesitate at such a late hour to join in the general discussion, but I have listened with a great deal of interest to practically every member who has spoken on the matter before the house, and with the exception of perhaps my hon. friend who has just resumed ihis seat (Mr. Church) the discussion has been along practical lines. I should like to ask the Minister of Trade and Commerce (Mr. Malcolm) what he has in his mind as to what the government will do in regard to industrial research. I was much interested in the remarks of the hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Garland) who made an excellent speech. His only error was that of exaggeration, and he did exaggerate, which I think greatly weakened his case. We in this country, in common with the mother country, have made progress mainly through the old road to progress, which is by trial and error. In that way was worked out for us nine-tenths of the problems in the industrial fields. The pioneers in industry in this country, as in other countries, wrought out without scientific research, and in most cases without scientific knowledge, a great many of the fundamental problems of this country, as was also done in other countries.

Take the steel business. I go back forty years in my experience in connection with that business, the only one I can claim to have any practical knowledge of. About the year 1888 we in New Glasgow changed over from acid to basic steel manufacture. We had to

get a refractory furnace lining that was basic, or either basic or neutral. Where did we get the material? We actually brought dolomite from Great Britain when we had millions of tons of it within two or three miles of our furnaces. We afterwards brought magnesite from Austria, and I remember well the problemt we had to meet and solve at that time, when we actually paid as much as 28 cents each for nine by four and a half inch bricks. Few people are familiar with the history of the conditions incident to those early days. These problems are now all worked out, but we then had to work them out very largely without the assistance which is now proposed to be given to industry.

Our progress in ail branches of industry in the future should be very much greater than it has been in the past; I have not any doubt it will be, and it ought to be. Some questions were brought up as to unused raw materials, and our friend from Bow River referred to tar sands. Then our attention was directed by other speakers as to what might be got out of sawdust and hemlock bark. The problem connected with these products is largely a matter of transportation, that is the question to be solved in regard to the treatment and utilization of products of that kind. Scientific research will not solve that problem. We know that we can extract the oil from the tar sands, but the difficulty is that these sarids are so far removed from where the product can be used, and the sands so much disseminated, that it is primarly a question of transportation and not of treatment. I hope the minister will make a little faster progress than, as I gather from his remarks, he is likely to make.

The other point I would like to stress is this: I think it would be of some advantage to him and great advantage to the country to take counsel with some of the practical men in industry. The difficulty with all these scientific gentlemen is that they are inclined to run higher and higher and deeper and deeper into scientific questions and overlook the practical questions that lie under our feet, which are really the important ones. If you will consider all the great advances made in the mechanical arts I think you will find that in the majority of cases they have been wrought not by scientific men in colleges, but by the practical men in intimate touch with the work that lay before them day by day. Take Colt and Bessemer, take Thomas and Gilchrist, Martin, Riley, and all the great men in the iron industry: not one of them was a scientific man, and for the most part they were practical workers who mixed brains and

National Research-Mr. Bennett

observation with their daily work. These facts must not be forgotten. If the minister is to make a success of the enterprise upon which we are now embarking, I think he will gain enormously if, before finally deciding the details of the establishment, he will take counsel with men who have a practical knowledge of the many problems that confront them in the various industries of the country which he plans to serve by his project of scientific research.

Hon. R. B. BENNETT (Leader of the Opposition):

Mr. Speaker, I desire to direct

attention to the fact that the resolution now under consideration does not involve the payment of public moneys for the purposes mentioned by the minister. Therefore I do not propose at this time to discuss the matter, reserving it for the moment when the estimates are under consideration. But this I do desire to say: I do not think the country is ready to see the duplication of these activities established in all parts of the Dominion. There are several state or provincial universities actively engaged in this work; there is one in British Columbia, one in Alberta, one in Saskatchewan, one in Manitoba, and one in the great province of Ontario. To each of those universities large sums of money are voted from year to year, and very considerable portions of that money are devoted to the purposes of industrial and other research. Instances were mentioned to-night as to the methods pursued and the results obtained in some of the provinces by virtue of those expenditures. But if we are to establish at Ottawa a national research institute for the whole of Canada, as the minister suggests, we must be extremely careful that we do not duplicate the activities already existing, and expend money for purposes for which money is already being spent in other places.

For instance-although perhaps this is not the time to discuss it-the Minister of the Interior (Mr. Stewart) spoke of what was being done in the pulp and paper industry.

I think when the matter is investigated it will be found that it is an effort on the part of the Dominion government to duplicate what is being done so well at McGill university. Again, the work that is being done in this city with respect to animal husbandry has produced wonderful results, but similar work on another scale is being done in all the provinces. Then take the work that is being carried on in the Connaught laboratories, a very valuable work-I have not the time to discuss it now. In short, in every part of Canada you will find research work

being conducted, and we must be careful not to duplicate those efforts if we are to-make this undertaking the success that we all hope it will be.

But what my friend from St. Lawrence-St. George (Mr. Cahan) said is, I submit, muck more to the point. Having at our disposal the advantage of the wide knowledge obtained by the hundred and ten millu-ns of people to the south of us at an expenditure of fifty million dollars and more per annum, and of the experiments carried on in Germany, it does occur to me that ona of the first things we should do is to expend public moneys for the purpose of ensuring that the knowledge thus obtained in other parts of the world shall be made available for our own people. That, it seems to me, is one of the great uses of this industrial research bureau. There is a tendency-not confined to Canada alone-when you place certain persons in authority, and give them the opportunity, for them to endeavour to extend their activities and to carry on their operations over a very wide field. That I think is something we have all experienced.

While perhaps it is not the exact moment for me to make these observations, in view of what the Minister of Trade and Commerce has said to-night, I venture -to suggest that a very earnest effort be made to see to it that whatever experiments are carried out and whatever research is undertaken will be something of a practical character and that the results will be made available to the Canadian people. We should utilize not only the knowledge which we ourselves obtain, but also the wide knowledge available to us by reason of the researches and experiments conducted in other countries. I could give my own experience of coming in contact with men from foreign lands who were visiting this and other British dominions merely for the purpose of ascertaining what knowledge had been obtained by experiments and research work in order to utilize it in their own country. That is important. I desire to add my voice to what has been said by my hon. friend from St. Lawrence-St. George as to the desirability of careful scrutiny of every effort that is being made to ensure that we utilize not only our best brains for scientific effort in this country, but also the methods and the wonderful knowledge that has come to us from other countries.

There is just one difficulty. I think we should not have too high hopes and expectations with respect to this matter. I remember during the war the representatives of a great American firm coming into our far west to

Lignite Coal-Mr. Kaiser

look over some very valuable mineral deposits there. They were convinced that during the war they could be made very valuable, but they stated frankly that our limited population meant that the by-products would be without a market. It does occur to me that when we are dealing with tar sands hundreds of miles in the northern part *of Alberta, we must always remember that as long as we have near at hand raw products that can be made available at lesser cost than the far-away raw products, the former will have the preference. That is a fact we must always bear in mind in a country such as ours with a limited population.

I do not intend to discuss the matter further, Mr. Speaker, than to say that the effort which the government is now making is a tardy recognition of the untiring zeal that characterized the efforts of Mr. Hume Cronyn, to whom the Minister of Trade and Commerce has referred, and of those who in that day constituted the government of Canada to promote an intelligent and lively interest in the problems of scientific research. Let me repeat, I do trust that there will be no duplication of effort, that money will not he improperly expended as it may be by reason of the tendency of human nature to extend its efforts over wider areas than are consistent with the attainment of the best results; and above all, that we utilize the moneys available for the purpose of making known to Canadians the achievements of scientists in other parts of the world to discover how best to deal with industrial and other problems.

Mr. T. E. KAISER (Ontario) moved:

That, in the opinion of this house, the government of the Dominion of Canada should immediately initiate such measures and take such other steps as may be necessary to bring about the utilization and transport of our vast deposits of lignite and bituminous coal, by their conversion into crude oil and other valuable commodities of every day life.

He said: Mr. Speaker, the subject of this resolution is attracting a great deal of attention not only of the people of Canada who happen to have been studying it, but also those of other countries. It seems to me fitting on my part to say that I have been interested in this subject more or less for a number of years, having some twenty years ago associated myself with the undertaking of producing

gas for the city of Oshawa. That association induced me to make a study of the chemistry of coal. During recent years, especially the last twelve months, certain matters brought to the attention of the people of Canada have aroused a tremendous interest in the subject. In order that we may visualize our interests in it as Canadian people I would draw the attention of the house to certain facts which confront me. In the first place the Dominion of Canada has a deposit of 1,250 billion tons of coal. This is a tremendous figure. In 1890 a commission in England undertook to investigate the quantity of coal there was in England and it found that there was a deposit of 100 billion tons of coal in that country, so that for every ton of coal that England ever possessed the Dominion of Canada can lay down twelve and one-half tons. From sixteen to twenty per cent of the coal of the world is contained within Canada. That is a tremendous thought.

The next thought is that we import 480 [DOT] million gallons of oil and 58 million gallons of gasoline per annum. What have we in the way of production in this Dominion? For every 100 barrels of oil used an this country only one is produced here. The next thought that impels me to say something on this subject is that, in spite of all that we may say there is coming over Canada and the United States a great change in the method of heating our houses in the cities and in regard to the general consumption of coal. The use of fuel oil is a matter that commands our attention. I find, for instance, that about seven per cent of the heating in Toronto is by oil and oil furnaces. Mr. Taylor, the head of the coal industry of the United States, has placed himself on record in this regard, that for heating purposes in that country oil has taken the place of coal to such an extent that in one year, 1925, it has displaced 200 million tons of coal. We are therefore confronted with the increasing use of fuel oil, its convenience and its fascinating features, and with the fact that we have very little of it in Canada.

Let us look at this matter from another point of view. We complain of so much coal being imported from the United States. It is not the coal that we object to: it is the adverse balance of trade of $216,000,000; that we wish to restore by using our own coal, and that from a sentimental point of view we would prefer to use our own. But we are not making any headway towards a balance of trade if we simply change from the consumption of coal ito the consumption of oil, if the oil comes from the United States of America. In 1927 a metallurgical congress was held in this Dominion, and among

Lignite Coal-Mr. Kaiser

the men who came here was Sir Robert Horn who told us that the British Empire uses 11 million tons of oil a year. He also said that the whole empire produced only 3 million tons of oil and that we depended upon other countries for the remaining S million tons of oill per annum. He along with Sir Richard Redmayne pointed out that within the Dominion of Canada we had deposits, vast, wonderful, beyond all measure, from which possibly the oil used in the British Empire might be found in the future.

Let me come now to another point. I agree with a great deal of what has been said with regard to research, but I would point out that ais regards the matter which I am trying to discuss the world has passed the period of research. We are not discussing to-night something that is yet to be discovered; we are going to confine our attention for a few moments to something that is already found. The matter is one not of research but of the application of knowledge which has been evolved by other people in other parts of the world. In 1926 at Pittsburgh the congress of bituminous coal people gathered and a German named Frederick Bergius appeared upon the scene, who read a paper entitled "The liquefaction and hydrogenation of coal." This paper attracted the attention of the scientific world and to-day his statements and findings are matters of world interest. In 1921 he came to Canada and obtained a patent for a process which he had evolved. In 1923 he again came to Canada and took out another patent. In 1926 he came to Canada once more and took out a third patent. This patent was with regard to processes which he had evolved and the details of which he announced in Pittsburgh in November, 1926. I am not prepared to say that the findings of Bergius constitute the last word in the evolution of this great question, but I am prepared to say that what Frederick Bergius discovered and what he evolved is a matter of first-rate, vast importance to this and every other country. If I am mistaken in saying that-and I m-ight be-my mistake is shared by some very practical and important people. Is it not marvellous to think that the Standard Oil Company of New Jersey, managed by probably the best and most astute business men in the United States, should have gone to Germany and purchased from Bergius the right to manufacture oil from coal in the whole of the United States? It is a marvellous thing that Germany should have backed this process with $500,000 the first year, increasing the amount year by year; it is a marvellous thing if the best business minds of England have been deceived in this matter, because in

writing to Bergius and asking certain details in regard to this process, he referred me to a syndicate in England known as the British Bergius Syndicate, which bought the patent right to produce oil from coal in the whole British Empire. I was curious to learn who was at the back of this particular move in England. A friend of mine in London sent me the prospectus of the company which has taken over these patents and now holds them for the Dominion of Canada, and I find that the company is capitalized at $275,000,000, so there is something substantial in it. At the head of the company is Right Hon. Sir Alfred Mond, who is well known in Canada and who is regarded as a first class business man all over the world. Associated with him are such men as Sir Harry McGowan, Right Hon. Lord Ashfield, Sir John Brunner, a name well known in business circles, the Marquis of Reading, P.C., G.C.B., G.C.V.O., G.M.S.I., G.M.I.E., and others; so it will be seen that leading business men of the British Empire are behind this process.

I would like to say just a word or two in regard to the process itself. For a great number of years chemists have been endeavouring to produce oil out of coal by what is commonly called the breaking-down process, but this man Bergius got it in his mind that this end could be attained by a synthetic method. A ton of coal was found to consist of sixteen parts of carbon to one part of hydrogen, while oil consists of eight parts of carbon to one part of hydrogen. Other scientists undertook to reduce the carbon content, but Bergius injected hydrogen and raised the hydrogen content to produce the oil in this way, and he succeeded to the extent of having his process backed by millions of dollars in Germany. He now has a plant in that country which is expected to turn out this year 100,000,000 gallons of crude oil, which will then be put through the distillation process. It has been found that a quality of coal suitable to this process will produce 30 per cent of gasoline, 30 per cent of fuel oil, 30 per cent of lubricating oil, and will leave a residue of only 10 per cent. The statement points out that this process will apply to any kind of coal except anthracite, but it has a particular application to lignite, and he has found that in putting even lignite coal through his process there are many varieties of that Class of coal which require minor changes in the process.

I suppose technical details would be wearisome at this time of night, but I do say that it strikes me as wrong that anyone outside of Canada should secure a patent which will tie up some of the natural resources of this coun-

Patent Act

try and prevent the application thereto of our own genius and talent. I claim that in this case the government should have an option on this particular process, because if it turns out in the way anticipated it will have a tremendous application in this country. We should look upon our natural resources as assets to be developed-I believe the people of Canada are getting a little tired of hearing politicians speak of our great resources, and so on, ad libitum. We should undertake to do something with those resources.

Mr. SPEAKER:

It is now eleven o'clock. The hon. gentleman will retain his position on the next private members' day.