Hon. CHARLES STEWART (Minister of the Interior):

I desire to lay on the table

of the house copies of files in connection with orders for returns passed on May 14, Nos. 1,

2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7. These were asked for by the' hon. member for Bow River (Mr. Garland), the hon. member for Camrose (Mr. Lucas), the hon. member for Vegreville (Mr. Luchkovich), the hon. member for Athabaska (Mr. Kellner), the hon. member for Red Deer (Mr. Speakman), the hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Kennedy) and the hon. member for Battle River (Mr. Spencer).

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):

I beg to lay on the table a return to an order of the house for which the hon. member for St. Lawrence- St. George (Mr. Cahan) has been anxiously waiting, respecting honours conferred by foreign governments on persons domiciled in Canada.

Mr. W. F. KAY (Brome-Missisquoi):

If I

can get the unanimous consent of the house, I beg to move, seconded by Mr. Glen:

That the tenth report of the select standing committee on agriculture and colonization be concurred in.

In moving for concurrence in this report of the agriculture committee which has had under consideration the question of immigration, I am not going to detain the house at any length owing to the lateness of the session and also owing to the fact that I may

Immigration-Mr. Kay

Mr. C. H. CAHAN (St. Lawrence-St. George):

Mr. Speaker, I can simply re-echo to a considerable degree the opinion expressed t,- hon' mwnber for Brome-Missisquoi (Mr. Kay), who acted as chairman of the select standing committee on immigration and colonization and presided over all its deliberations with great fairness and dignity, and in so doing I am sure secured the respect and esteem of all members of that committee on both sides of the house. Our deliberations were conducted in the most amicable manner, and upon the terms of the report as presented we are largely in agreement, indeed unanimous, I think, except with regard to one particular clause.

It^ seems to me that the matter of immigration into this country is one of the large and transcending questions upon which the public of Canada at present have their minds directed. There is not, I think, a great difference of opinion with regard to the necessity of developing our country by means of immigration into this country, especially from the British Isles. At the Imperial conference of 1921, at which Canada was represented by Mr. Meighen, the then Prime Minister, a resolution was adopted unanimously, as follows:

The conference having satisfied itself that the proposals embodied in the report of the conference on state-aided empire settlement are sound in principle, and that the several dominions are prepared, subject to parliamentary sanction and to the necessary financial arrangements being made, to cooperate effectively with the United Kingdom in the development of schemes based on these proposals, but adapted to the particular circumstances and conditions of each dominion.

At that same conference the prime ministers representing the various dominions of the commonwealth also set forth an unanimous expression of view, as follows:

2. The conference expresses the hope that the government of the United Kingdom will, at the earliest possible moment, secure the necessarv powers to enable it to carry out its part in any schemes of cooperation which may subsequently be agreed on, preferably in the form of an act

Immigration-Mr. Cahan

which will make it clear that the policy of cooperation now adopted is intended to be permanent.

3. The conference recommends to the governments of the several dominions that they should consider how far their existing legislation on the subject of land settlement, soldier settlement, and immigration, may require any modification or expansion in order to secure effective cooperation, and should work out, for discussion with the government of the United Kingdom, such proposals as may appear to them most practicable and best suited to their interests and circumstances.

At a subsequent meeting of the Imperial conference in 1926, at which Canada was represented by the present Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) and his colleague the Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe), a resolution was adopted approving of the resolution of the conference of 1921, the Prime Minister of Canada being present and approving of the previous resolution. First a special subcommittee report was presented, and then the report was considered and adopted by the conference on the 19th of November. The prime ministers of the dominions most closely concerned, Canada, the Commonwealth of Australia, and New Zealand, expressed their appreciation of the advances which had been made in practical cooperation in respect of immigration since the conference of 1923, and emphasized the earnest desire of those dominions to aid further in the development of their respective countries with settlers from Great Britain up to the limit of their capacity. The report says:

As was pointed out at the previous conference, however, the rate at which the redistribution of population within the empire can take place must be governed by the rate at which the dominions can satisfactorily absorb new settlers; and it was generally recognized that a sound policy must be based upon scientific and carefully considered schemes designed to secure the settlement of suitable persons under conditions conducing both to their own well-being and to the prosperous development of the dominion in which they are established.

And then, after approving of the three-thousand-family scheme as having been a conspicuous success in Canada, the report proceeds :

With a view to providing inducements to settlers to remain on the land overseas the subcommittee recommended that facilities should be provided for assisting suitable settlers from Great Britain to acquire farms of their own.

Then finally a resolution was passed of which I shall read the last clause, as follows:

It (the conference) endorses the view expressed at that conference that the policy should be a permanent one. It recognizes that it would be impracticable, owing to financial, economic, and political considerations, to promote mass movements of population, but it is satisfied that, by continuous adherence to the

present policy, it should be possible steadily to increase the flow of population to those parts of the British commonwealth where it is most needed for development and general security, and where it will find the greatest opportunities. ,

That series of resolutions adopted in 1921, and reaffirmed and extended in 1926, proves to my mind conclusively that the representatives of this government and of the preceding government were quite unanimous in the view that it was absolutely necessary to have a clear understanding between the government of this dominion and the government of Great Britain with regard to a policy of immigration that would not only promote the transfer of immigrants to this country, but would secure for them employment on a satisfactory basis after they had arrived in this country.

With those reports in view I attended a majority of the meetings of the select committee on agriculture and colonization. But perhaps I was expecting too much under the circumstances. We dealt with the Immigration department in such a manner as to ascertain its workings in all their ramifications. We investigated certain rumours or suspicions which had been spread throughout the country as to the officials of the department being lacking in honesty, and another suspicion or rumour that members of the House of Commons had been trafficking in permits or letters of admission for immigrants from the continental countries of Europe.

At the outset I desire to say that after examining some of the witnesses and listening attentively to the examination of others from the department and outside, I came to the clear conclusion that whatever the department may lack in efficiency as it is at present constituted, there can be no reflection upon the honour or honesty of the officials who are administering that department. I also came to the conclusion that the suspicion created throughout the country with regard to members of parliament trafficking in permits or letters of admission to immigrants from the continental countries of Europe is entirely without foundation so far as any evidence was brought before the committee, and so far as I was able to ascertain by personal investigation of some rumours which were brought to my notice.

I deem it my duty to say that in the investigations which I personally conducted I think I found the real source of these rumours with regard to the payment of money by continental immigrants for their admission into Canada. Those immigrants do not under-

Immigration-Mr. Cahan

Hear, hear.

Mr. CAHAN:

Therefore we must look forward and adopt the best constructive policy adapted to bring about such a desirable result. I am convinced that the department as at present constituted cannot efficiently perform that great public service. Consequently it seemed to me and to some others that the government should now undertake the reorganization of the Department of Immigration and Colonization. Personally, 'at first I thought it might be reorganized on such broad lines as have been adopted in the Commonwealth of Australia, which recently established a development and migration commission for the direction and control of all schemes of settlement. One branch of that commission has the duty to make a complete economic survey of the industrial resources of the Australian Commonwealth, and I believe it has proved an important factor in the recent prosperous development of the Australian states. In this country I find that a number of members are not in favour of the commission method, although the commission would certainly always be under the supervision and direction of a responsible minister of the crown. Therefore I suggest a modified form in which that department might be created, having one branch in charge of immigration and a second branch in charge of the development of employment throughout the country in every form of industry. We cannot under present conditions bring large masses of immigrants into this country and set them afloat without providing here suitable remunerative employment for them. Under the present conditions and during the last few years we have lost by emigration nearly three-quarters of a million of Canadian youth whose places have been largely taken up by immigrants from Great Britain and the continent. We must provide employment in this country of a diversified remunerative character for the sons and daughters of Canada, and also such employment as will

Immigration-Mr. Cahan

enable us to increase our population by immigration from the old world, especially from Great Britain. .

We have at present in the Department of the Interior vast stores of knowledge with regard to our natural resources which are not sufficiently made known to Canadians and to the world. We have in our mines branch, in our geological survey and statistical departments vast stores of knowledge which are very essential to any board or body of men who may desire to undertake the industrial development of Canada. These stores of knowl-ledge should be rendered accessible, and further, full inquiry should be made by a branch of a reconstituted department responsible to parliament under the supervision of a minister of the crown; and that department should seek out and make known to the world all the vast possibilities of industrial development in this country.

I know that when I speak of industrial development in Canada there is always a suspicion that I am talking tariff protection. I regard tariff protection as an incident in the vast undertaking which I have in view and which I believe could be carried out by responsible men of large experience, hi^h intelligence and executive training and ability.

I am not bringing forward this motion as a vote of want of confidence in the government.

I intend to ask that certain matters which I shall bring to the attention of the house by resolution should be presented by the committee to the government with an earnest recommendation that the suggestions therein contained should receive the favourable consideration of the government, because I realize that so long as we have responsible government in this country we can secure the wellbeing of Canada, in the matter Of political administration, only by acting through the government which for the time' being occupy the seats of office. And however much we may desire to remove them at the earliest possible opportunity, we realize that until a general election they will sit stolid and content in the offices which they at present occupy and control.

I do not think, Mr. Speaker, that I can better present my views than by reading the resolution which I am about to propose, because I do not now intend to consume even the forty minutes at my disposal. I move, seconded by Mr. Arthurs:

That the said report be not now concurred in. but that it be recommitted to the select standing committee on agriculture and colonization with instructions that they have power to amend the same and to recommend that the

following suggestions and recommendations receive the favourable consideration of the government, viz:

1. The evidence taken by the committee and the reasonable implications of such evidence disclose that in the matter of immigration into Canada, particularly from Great Britain and Northern Ireland, no effective measures are now being taken to secure the active and efficient cooperation, with the Department of Colonization and Immigration, of the Colonization departments of the Canadian National Railways and of the Canadian Pacific Railway, and of the various other organizations, associations and agencies which are engaged in the work of immigration, colonization and settlement in Canada.

2. It is evident that the Department of Immigration and Colonization as at present constituted and administered is incompetent to procure the effective coordination and cooperation of all these various organizations in the work of immigration, colonization and land settlement.

3. The matter of immigration into Canada is of mutual concern to Great Britain, with its congestion of population and prevalent unemployment, and to Canada with its widely extended territory and its sparse population; but neither country may be well served by the mere transport to Canada annually of large numbers of people who are left to make their way in Canada as pioneers in a new country under conditions of life which to them are novel and difficult.

4. On the other hand, the capacity of Canada for the absorption in large numbers of uew settlers is obviously limited by the existing economic conditions of this country and the possibilities for their speedy improvement. The cost and difficulty involved in the resettlement in Canada of our returned soldiers after the conclusion of the Great War, and their absorption into the economic life of this country, are indicative of the ramifications of the problem of procuring the migration of masses of people from Great Britain to Canada and their resettlement in this country under conditions which will ensure their future happiness and contentment.

5. Immigration should be carried on contemporaneously not only with land settlement throughout Canada, but also with such development and extension of employment in Canadian agriculture, mining, forestry and manufacturing as will rapidly absorb incoming settlers. Such immigration and land settlement on an extensive scale will eventually require not only large appropriations from the federal treasury for the direction, control and maintenance of such a comprehensive national undertaking, but it will also involve the establishment throughout Canada by private enterprise and by the investment of private capital of such profitable and diversified industries of all kinds as are suitable to our climatic and economic conditions.

6. The key to the solution of the whole problem of immigration to Canada is the provision of adequate employment, in all branches of domestic industry in Canada, not only for our Canadian people, but also for the large numbers of immigrants from other countries who may be induced to settle in Canada.

7. If existing economic conditions are more or less completely ignored and opportunities for

Immigration-Mr. Cahan

employment are not widely extended, large migrations of people to this country will inevitably result in increasing the problems of domestic unemployment in Canada, especially in the winter season, and in lowering the standards of life which are at present enjoyed by those resident in Canada who are now engaged in industrial pursuits; both of which tendencies will, in turn, seriously react adversely upon the flow of immigration into Canada.

8. The committee, therefore, recommend that a department of Immigration, Colonization and Industrial Development be organized forthwith, which shall be under the administration of a responsible minister of the crown and which shall consist of two branches, each under the direction of a superintendent of intellectual strength and considerable business experience.

9. The duty of the immigration and colonization branch of the said proposed department should be;

(a) To procure the cooperation of the several provincial governments with the work of said proposed department;

(b) To coordinate the work of all organizations, associations and agencies, which are now engaged in promoting immigration into Canada, under one supreme direction and control, for the more efficient carrying out of the undertakings which all have in common;

(c) To ensure, in so far as practicable, that a majority of the settlers emigrating from other countries to Canada shall be such as may be physically and mentally adapted to the conditions of life in this northern country and likely to be readily assimilated by our existing population;

(d) To make adequate financial provision for the settlement upon the vacant lands throughout Canada, which are suitable for agriculture, of families who appear, with reasonable certainty, to be adapted for agricultural pursuits;

(e) To provide facilities for the settlement in the more recently organized provinces of Canada of settlers from the older provinces, who, as were thousands of the earlier settlers in the west, are intent upon leaving their homes in the east in search of wider opportunities for self-improvement in the new agricultural and mining districts which are now, from time to time, being opened up for settlement and development in the west; and

{f) To direct, supervise and control all schemes of settlement in the more sparsely settled districts of Canada.

10. The duty of the industrial development branch of said proposed department should be:

_ (a) To act in close cooperation with the immigration and colonization branch:

(b) To make a complete economic survey and study of the industrial resources of Canada;

(c) To advise in regard to the future economic development of the several provinces of Canada and of the Northwest Territories, with a view to the more rapid extension of industrial employment, and

(d) To direct its attention particularly to the establishment of suitable industries in our smaller towns and villages not only in eastern Canada and British Columbia, but particularly in the three prairie provinces, whence a constantly increasing number of young men and young women, who have no special aptitude or liking for agricultural pursuits, will inevitably

emigrate from Canada to seek other industrial employment in the neighbouring republic, if similarly attractive opportunities are not afforded to them in Canada.

11. The investigations of the industrial development branch should be comprehensive in character and be undertaken in a spirit of scientific detachment, in order that- it may receive adequate and non partisan political support throughout the whole country.

12. And the committee are also of the opinion that the industrial development branch by a detailed survey of industrial conditions in Canada, would be able to recommend what new industries for the production in Canada of commodities, which are now imported in considerable quantities into Canada, could advantageously be created in Canada or be transplanted from other countries to Canada, without unduly increasing the prices for such commodities in our more limited markets, and so afford constantly increasing and remunerative employment within Canada for all classes of our population, and thus provide the strongest incentive to suitable settlers to make their permanent homes in Canada.

Mr. Speaker, I submit this amendment not in any critical spirit, but I think in its wisdom this house should outline some constructive measures for recommendation to the government for their acceptance, such recommendations to be worked out by the government not perhaps in order to start a new era of prosperity but in order to accelerate the prosperity of Canada by ensuring employment in this country not only to our own population but also to ensure that those whom we induce to enter Canada will find remunerative employment here. Unless we concentrate our attention directly upon the necessity of increasing employment in this country it seems to me useless (to continue to bring large numbers of immigrants into the country and to disperse them from one end of Canada to the other without providing them with the means of earning a suitable living here.

PRIVILEGE-Mr. YOUNG (SASKATOON)

Mr. A. M. YOUNG (Saskatoon):

Mr. EVANS:

The hon. member will get his answer in the ordinary course.

Mr. YOUNG (Saskatoon):

I had been

asked by one of my constituents to take this matter up with the department, and I was investigating it when the hon. member for Rosetown saw fit to butt in. I would like to ask him if I was not entitled to the courtesy of his corning to me to find out about the case. He' never on any occasion spoke to me regarding this matter, never did me that

Privilege-Mr. Young (Saskatoon)

courtesy. In so far as this statement refers to me, I want to deny it absolutely. There was no bulldozing, bullying or bluffing of this man to pay this debt. I will go further and say that I have never done that sort of thing with any man, whether a returned soldier or otherwise, m order to get him to pay any debt. I am going to demand that the hon. member for Rosetown retract his statement unconditionally. When he says this matter has been settled for over six years, I reply that it is now under investigation by the department and sworn evidence is to be taken at Saskatoon. These are the facts of the case.

I have lived in Saskatoon for a period of twenty-two years, and had the hon. member for Rosetown made these statements there' I would have no fear of the effect. But inasmuch as he chose to make his remarks in this honourable chamber, with the result that they will be read by a much wider circle and in places where I am not so well known, I feel obliged bo demand, as I now demand, that he retract these statements unconditionally.

Mr. JOHN EVANS (Rosetown):

Mr. Speaker, I presume I have the 'privilege of defending myself and the statements made last night.

Mr. YOUNG (Saskatoon):

Withdraw the

remarks; that is the privilege you have.

Mr. EVANS:

Mr. Speaker, I did not interrupt the hon. gentleman when he was speaking. In the first place, I want to say that when I mentioned the mortgagee, one Hanson held the farm, and the returned soldier never acknowledged to the hon. gentleman that he owed for seed grain. He called to see the hon. member (Mr. Young, Saskatoon) at hie residence, after. being told by telephone to come and see him on urgent business. It is also untrue that he offered to pay a certain sum, and I will read all the correspondence to show that.

Order, order.

Mr. EVANS:

I am also accused

Mr. YOUNG (Saskatoon):

Mir. Speaker-

Mr. EVANS:

I am accused of offering to pay $300, thereby acknowledging the debt. I never acknowledged the debt, and I never offered to pay $300. I wanted the1 returned soldier to have his title clear, and I went down to the department and offered to pay $300 if Mr. Tubb could settle for that amount; if Mr. Tubb had to pay that amount my cheque was ready there and then. The Minister of the Interior or any department official never intimated bo me that they would take my cheque. I want this house to under-

stand that the debt stands at $826 at the present time, and I want to say that neither the hon. member for Saskatoon nor any departmental official, not even the minister himself, has the authority to settle for the amount mentioned. Again I did not butt in when the returned soldier was accused by the hon. gentleman of having obtained seed and feed on false pretences.