Mr. JOHN MILLAR (Qu'Appelle):

Mr. Speaker, I should like to move, seconded by Mr. Coote:

That twenty thousand copies in English and five thousand copies in French of the evidence taken by the select standing committee on agriculture and colonization on the consideration of the subject of the grading and inspection of wheat be printed in blue book form, and that distribution be made thereof free of charge by the Department of Trade and Commerce, and that standing order 64 be suspended in relation thereto.

Hon. J. A. ROBB (Minister of Finance):

Mr. Speaker, I do not rise to object to the putting out of the evidence if the agricultural committee determined that its distribution is worth while; but I submit that we are introducing a precedent that later on may, to say the least, create embarrassment and add materially to the expense of carrying on the affairs of this parliament. I have no recollection of parliament ordering the printing of

Grading of Wheat

twenty thousand copies of evidence. It is customary to order the printing of a reasonable amount of such information as is desirable for members of both houses and for distribution to their constituents. But if it is necessary to print this number of copies, why should it not be done by the department interested? The proper procedure, it seems to me, is for the Department of Trade and Commerce, to which we give a considerable vote for printing, to take the responsibility of putting out this evidence, if it is considered worth while to do so. If I understand the motion rightly, Mr. Speaker, it is questionable whether it is an order on the Department of Trade and Commerce to do this work. If it is,

I doubt if a private member has the right to move such a motion.

Mr. SPEAKER:

I was about to say that if it is intended that the printing shall be at the expense of the Department of Trade and Commerce, the motion must be introduced by the minister of that department; and it is not very clear that the department shall look after the distribution. I will read the motion once more:

That twenty thousand copies in English and five thousand copies in French of the evidence taken by the select standing committee on agriculture and colonization on the consideration of the subject of the grading and inspection of wheat be printed in blue book form and that distribution be made thereof free of charge by the Department of Trade and Commerce and that standing order 64 be suspended in relation thereto.

It is not clear whether the printing is to be done at the expense of the House of Commons. If it is so intended, I must, as head of this department, advise the hon. gentleman that we have not sufficient funds to print such a large number of copies. We have already sent in a requisition for 1,500 copies. If the Minister of Trade and Commerce is willing to do the work, well and good. But he must say so.

Mr. MILLAR:

The intention of the resolution, Mr. Speaker, is that those copies shall be printed from the general fund and distributed by the Department of Trade and Commerce.

Mr. LAPOINTE:

Will my hon. friend state what he means by the general fund?

Mr. MILLAR:

Well, the consolidated revenue fund. It all comes out of the same pocket anyway.

Mr. LAPOINTE:

Yes, but there must be an appropriation to take even five cents from the consolidated revenue fund.

Mr. MILLAR:

I am not much worried about that so long as we get the printing done. I desire to point out that we have been dealing with a question on which very little information is available in printed form. It is related to an agitation that has extended over the last twenty years; during all that time our farmers have been asking that their wheat should be graded according to its milling value. Your committee went very fully into this matter, and took the evidence of witnesses who are experts in their particular lines, and the information so brought together will be of very great value to the Western farmers.

Now, twenty thousand copies may seem a large number, but with fifty-four constituencies in western Canada, practically all of which will be keenly interested in this question-as I will show in a moment-it means a very small number of copies to each constituency; further, it means that there will be about only one copy for every seven or eight thousand farmers. Some time ago when the evidence was completed, but before the report was issued, I took the trouble to secure from the printing bureau a statement of the cost involved. It did not include the report, nor did it provide for the translation into French. It amounted to only a little more than eight cents a copy. Making allowance for the translation and including the report- 'this resolution does not provide for it but I hope it will be included-the cost would amount to only ten cents a copy. When we consider that the information deals with a subject of great interest to western Canada, I think it is reasonable to expect that all those copies will be ordered.

I hold in my hand half a dozen letters from farmers who, having seen by the press that this matter was discussed in this house, of their own accord wrote for further information. One asks for a dozen copies, another, the secretary of an organization, asked for a dozen copies of the discussion which took place in the house on this subject some months ago, and so on. I have received probably a dozen letters, showing that the fanners are keenly interested in this matter. I believe other members have had the same experience. I do not think I have discussed in this house any question about which I have received so many inquiries, and which seems to have created so much interest. The evidence is quite complete, but unless that information is made available to the farmers so that they may have a chance to study and apply it I am afraid a large part of the benefit of the committee's work will be lost. I

Grading oj Wheat

would refer again to the fact that the proposed distribution covers the three prairie provinces. The number is small, but in view of the fact that a few hon. gentlemen seem to think it large, I am personally willing that it shall be reduced, respectively, to 10,000 in English and 2,500 in French. That is reducing it by half. I have no authority from the committee to make that suggestion but I believe a number of the members of the committee are of opinion that we might do with less. I would move, therefore, that the number be reduced as I have indicated, and the amendment will embody words to that effect. I shall be quite satisfied with that.

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):

My hon. friend suggests

a reduction in the number of copies. May I point out that there is a committee which has to do with the printing of the House of Commons. My hon. friend might agree to amend his motion in such a manner as to omit altogether reference to the number of copies to 'be printed and leave the number to the committee of the house to determine. I suggest that the motion be simply that copies in English and copies in French be printed1. The committee might confer with His Honour the Speaker

Mr. E. J. GARLAND (Bow River):

When is that committee likely to meet if we prorogue this afternoon?

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

It might meet this morning or during the course of the day with a view to conferring with His Honour the Speaker. I should not think there would be any difficulty.

Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):

I cannot

for the life of me understand the opposition to the request for a certain number of copies to be printed, the cost to be taken out of the revenue. We have no hesitation in expending $10,000 on invitations and menu cards for Rideau Hall, but when it comes to a small amount for the printing of valuable information for the farmers of western Canada there is opposition.

Mr. LAPOINTE:

There is no opposition; it is only a question of procedure.

Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):

Mr. LAPOINTE:

Did the hon. gentleman hear Mr. Speaker say that he was afraid he had not sufficient funds for the purpose? Is it not wise to confer with His Honour in that regard? If my hon. friend wants a new sheet of estimates no doubt the amount could be increased. But I think it is only elementary wisdom to confer with the Speaker as to what can be done.

Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):

The Minister of Justice (Mr. Lapointe) and the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) overlook one fact in relation to this motion: I do not

know who is going to call a meeting of the committee. And if the committee is called how shall we get results before parliament prorogues? I do not think it is wise to follow that course unless the Prime Minister can assure us that we shall obtain a quorum and come to some agreement before prorogation.

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

My endeavour in the matter is to ensure copies being printed. His Honour the Speaker has mentioned that with the figures suggested it is not possible for him to authorize the house to pass the motion as it stands. I conferred with His Honour to ascertain whether it would facilitate matters if the figures were left out. And as I was conferring with His Honour I heard the hon. member who moved the resolution suggest that the numbers be reduced to 10,000 and 2,500 respectively. I thought the better course of procedure would be to leave it to the committee in conference with His Honour the Speaker to determine how many copies it might be possible to print. I have not the least doubt that the disposition of the committee will be to print all that are required. At any rate, if a limited number of copies are printed I think I can undertake to say that, in the event of the funds of the House of Commons being insufficient to provide the larger number required, we shall manage somehow to meet the situation out of unforeseen expenses or in some other way until parliament meets again.

Mr. MILLAR:

My suggestion to cut down

the number was because of opposition to the number.

Public Expenditure-Mr. Bennett