Mr. HEENAN:

I quote further:

The employment figures of the New York state Department of Labor, probably the best series in the country, in January stood at the lowest point in their fifteen-year history, except for three months in 1921, and February showed a further drop of nearly one-half of 1 per cent, although February ordinarily brings a gain of more than 1 per cent.

That report comes from a tariff country.

For the information of the member for Winnipeg North Centre and to explain the remarks I made last night to the effect that it required some education to get the public to adopt an unemployment insurance scheme, I want to read from the Montreal Gazette, the leading Conservative paper. I quote from an editorial in the issue of April 2, 1930:

The rather vague announcement of the Minister of Labour that the government may, in cooperation with the provinces, give effect to employment insurance affords cause for apprehension. The thing itself is not so startling as are the implications under the political conditions which obtain. Whither are we drifting in this matter of socialistic paternalism? Now is the time, rather than lateri to think seriously and soundly about the outlook. As has from time to time been pointed out in these columns, we embarked rather impulsively on a broad scheme of old age pensions, and to follow that up with so radical a measure as employment insurance would be to open the door wide for every other fad which the aggressive socialists are advocating. When we had gone to that length, the dole would be in sight; in fact, it would be inevitable. We had better pause and take our reckonings; for experience has amply demonstrated that it is an easy thing to set in motion a process of that nature and a very difficult thing to control it. That process would seem to have been begun, and, if we are to avoid grave perils, we should begin at once to look ahead in a sober and calculating spirit.^

Human nature is a fairly constant factor in the social scheme. If there is poverty, unemployment at times, want in old age, and so on, it would be infinitely better to attack the problem at its roots than to seek mere palliatives. To the extent that the cause is to be identified in the indolence, the improvidence, the intemperance, the lack of foresight of individuals, it is quite evident that conditions would be aggravated by a premeditated plan of notifying such people that they need have no fear of the consequences of their folly. While human nature remains as it is, and as it has been through the centuries, it is sheer madness to tell idle and shiftless men and women that the state will step in and save them from the penalties of their violation of fixed social laws. That there are many cases quite outside of that category does not in the slightest degree mitigate the unwisdom of extreme and needless paternalism. The end is pauperism; and in a young country like this, with unrivalled opportunities for the industrious and ambitious, the last thing we ought to do is deliberately to lay the foundations for precisely that sort of thing. _

We have already done an unwise thing in adopting a system of indiscriminate old age pen-2419-761

sions. Every alert observer must have seen that politics had more to do with the matter than genuine need. It was an act of stultification in a period of abounding prosperity and national expansion. It was a frank announcement to the improvident that they need not look ahead to the inevitable years of disability; and few things could be fraught with greater menace to society than that. _ It was at the same time an equally candid notice to the thrifty and hard-working that their savings would'be drawn upon to provide for the wasters; for that is what it means. The state may have the legal power to commit such an act of injustice; but we should all calmly see that it is the sure road to endless trouble. For that reason it is to be hoped that not another step will be taken until time has been given for the people at large to think the problem out in all its bearings and grave implications.

That is a notification to Conservatives throughout the country that they must not in any sense be a party to unemployment insurance. So that I want to point out to my hon. friends in the labour group that it requires a considerable amount of public education before we can get a contributory unemployment insurance scheme, a thing which I consider to be very necessary to cope with the unemployment situation in Canada,

In conclusion I would like to say-

Hear, hear.

Mr. HEENAN:

I thought the hon. members over there were just beginning to like me. I would like to ask any member of parliament, whether he be a member of a provincial legislature or a member of the House of Commons, who desires to see a permanent scheme to deal with the unemployment situation, to use his influence throughout the country to educate the public as to the necessity for such a scheme, and not "pass the buck" from the legislature to the House of Commons.

Mr. BENNETT:

Hear, hear.

Mr. HEENAN:

Under our laws we have no jurisdiction. My hon. friend the leader of the opposition has said "hear, hear". I noticed, however, when the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre moved an amendment last session to the report of the industrial and international relations committee, asking that the provincial governments be requested to pass legislation to give up their rights in this matter, my hon. friend voted against it.

Mr. BENNETT:

Because they cannot give it up.

Mr. HEENAN:

I admit they cannot give

it up; consequently I am asking members of this house not to try to urge something on the federal government which cannot be done, and which they admit cannot be done. In the

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meantime I would suggest that this is a young country; there is a great deal of development and construction to be done here, and I would ask that eveiy hon. member use his influence to assist in every possible way to get that construction carried on, not only through this Dominion parliament, but through the provincial legislatures as well, so that the work will help to a very large extent in eliminating unemployment.

Hon. R. J. MANION (Fort William):

Mr. Speaker, I agree with the hon. member who introduced this resolution that it is the most important problem facing our country to-day. I do not think anyone in this great land of promise can realize that in the cold northern winters of Canada there are times-and this applies particularly to the present-when men and women and innocent little children are suffering from lack of the food which is necessary to keep their bodies and souls together, without feeling a very deep and abiding sympathy for the cause which has been advocated by the hon. member for North Winnipeg (Mr. Heaps).

I listened with respect and attention to the theories for a permanent solution of this problem proposed by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth) as well as by the hon. member for North Winnipeg, but while I agree that some day a permanent solution must be found, I would point out that at the moment the fact is that we have a very' severe unemployment, and temporary measures of some kind should have been brought forward long ago by this government in order properly to deal with this problem.

Before the Minister of Labour (Mr. Heenan) made his three-hour speech, if I might use that term in regard to his remarks, we had been discussing for nearly two full days this question of unemployment, and it was almost unprecedented to see this government sitting quietly by and having to be almost kicked into the debate before they made anything in the shape of a suggestion. Now that we have listened to the Minister of Labour, I do not know that any suggestion has been made as yet. Without a doubt, the government were hoping for some idea to come from someone else, not having any ideas of their own; they were trusting in Providence, as they usually do, waiting like Micawber for something to turn up, and at last, after two days of debate, the Minister of Labour rises and talks for practically three hours-an hour and three-quarters last evening, and over an hour to-day-and we have listened to the veriest drivel and a most

infantile sort of attempt to deal with this problem. I do not wish to be extreme, although this may sound a little that way; but in the whole course of his three-hour speech I was able to recognize no atom of thought which he had given to this problem; I was able to recognize in his remarks no hint of a remedy. In fact, sir, as far as I could see, he not only has no idea of a remedy for this problem but he has no idea that there is a problem at all in this country at the present time. He is the representative of labour in this house; he is the hon. gentleman who speaks on labour problems for this government, so no doubt he was speaking for the government last night and to-day. If that speech is any criterion of what the government thinks, then it is a veritable policy of futility, hopelessness and despair. When we consider our great country, this land of promise with its wide open spaces, it is appalling to think that the government has no policy on -this question, any more than it has on any other question, except the policy of hanging on to power.

The Minister of Labour, who has just taken his seat, did what most of the other ministers -including the Minister of Interior the other evening, the Prime Minister and various other ministers at different times during this session-have done; he claimed a prosperous condition in this country and referred to "blue ruin talkers" when speaking of those who pointed out that things were not as prosperous as they tried to make out. I fear that the trouble with the Minister of Labour is that he is so prosperous himself; that he has reached realms of prosperity beyond his fondest dreams in days gone by, and he mistakes his own personal prosperity for the prosperity of this country.

Mr. YOUNG (Saskatoon):

The hon. gentleman should not forget that he is sitting in millionaire row at the present time.

Mr. MANION:

But I must remind my

hon. friend that I am not one of the millionaires, I am sorry to say. I wish to point out that in the three hours which the last speaker took, he devoted about half an hour to pointing out the difference between his viewpoint on unemployment insurance and that of the Prime Minister, and he took another half hour in an attempt to prove that neither one had meant what he said. Then he took another half hour to read statements made by provincial premiers at the opening of legislatures-when premiers are naturally taking the most optimistic outlook that they can -apparently in order to try to prove by these statements that there is no twemployment at

Unemployment-Mr. Mamon

all. Then he took the better part of an hour last evening and more time to-day to criticize myself, misquoting statements which I have made at various times.

I must confess that I felt a little sorry to be forced to interrupt so often, but I have had a great deal of experience with the hon. gentleman, and if one does not correct his statements at the time they are made, his methods in northern Ontario are something like this: He would go back with this statement which he made, if it were not corrected immediately, and on the back concessions he would say, "I said this to Doctor Man-ion's face, and he did not have the courage to contradict me." The hon. gentleman has a method of his own, a method which is cunning, if one cares to stoop to it during election time. He has a habit of misquoting statements and misstating facts, and after he has done that for a week-

Order.

Mr. MANION:

He spends a week doing

that sort of thing during election time, and then on Sunday he goes to church and prays that the good Lord will not allow anybody to come around to tell the truth during the next week.

Order.

Mr. MANION:

He also conjured up in his brain-if I may use that term after listening to his three-hour speech-a sort of idiotic delusion that in some way I had endeavoured to stop the building of the trans-Canada highway.

Order.

Mr. SPEAKER:

The hon. gentleman is a very old and wise parliamentarian, and I have the highest regard for his ability. Surely he knows that "idiotic" is not a parliamentary expression.

Mr. MANION:

Well, Mr. Speaker, I withdraw the expression, but I wish to point out that I did not say the minister was idiotic, but that the delusion was idiotic. However, I will withdraw the word. At any rate, the minister conjured1 up in his mind the delusion that in some way I was endeavouring to block the building of the trans-Canada highway. I wish to state, Mr. Speaker, that I advocated the building of such a highway not only here the other day in a speech on that very question, but elsewhere on the hustings, and whenever the question has come up I have taken the same attitude.

The hon. gentleman took some time to deal with the attitude of the province of Ontario. I also wish to deal with that question for a moment, although I have only forty minutes in which to speak, and, not three hours as was the case with my hon. friend,-However, the province of Ontario has taken the attitude that there are certain sections of that highway, particularly the section between Sault Ste. Marie and Fort William, the construction of which will not aid agriculture or any other interest, but will be of advantage only in uniting the east and the west. Having taken that attitude, which is a logical and straightforward position' to take, they suggest that for the purpose of uniting the east and west by a transcontinental highway they should not be asked to build a stretch of road some hundreds of miles in length, across that more or less barren section of northern Ontario, and they suggest that in the interests of Canadian national unity this government should cooperate with them in the construction of that highway. With that attitude I entirely agree, and in addition I should like to point out that if this government had cooperated with the Ontario government in that work during last fall, they would have helped the unemployment situation to a very great extent. Let me point out in passing that the Ontario government to-day is building in my section of the country some sixty or seventy miles of road which will be part of the trans-Canada highway, despite the higher winter cost. That construction is being carried on largely because of the demands for unemployment relief which have been made in that section of the country. I was a member of that deputation which visited Mr. Ferguson and the rest of the government, which deputation made a statement upon its return that the Ontario government was going to help relieve this situation.

The hon. minister consumed some time in reading from an order in council passed during 1921 by the government of which I was a member, in which the preliminary statement was to the effect that unemployment was primarily a municipal matter, and secondly a provincial matter. He stopped reading at that point, with the intention of course,_ of leaving it at that, but the hon. member for Vancouver Centre (Mr. Stevens) insisted that he read the whole order in council. I have a copy of that order in council before me and it shows that the government had spent $600,000 during the previous nine months in assisting unemployment; that they had offered to the municipalities of this country one-third of the extra cost entailed by the construction of municipal works during the winter months; and where that did not succeed in relieving the situation the government offered food and shelter to the unemployed who remained. If

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the present government had taken that same attitude-'they had this order in council before them, as was demonstrated, by the minister's quoting from it-no great criticism could have been offered. Instead of that we have had nothing from this government in regard to this matter except words; such verbosity as we heard last evening and again this afternoon from the Minister of Labour.

Perhaps it should be mentioned that one thing has been done by this government during the last few years to relieve unemployment in Canada. Had this government not driven out of the country 111,000 Canadians annually for the five years of 1921-26 when they were in power, the number of unemployed would be much larger. Through that lack of initiative and lack of Canadianism they have perhaps helped this problem.

After listening to the lengthy speech of the hon. minister I have come to the conclusion that his labour friends, if he has any left, will decide that the sooner the Minister of Labour and his confreres, including the Prime Minister, join the ranks of the unemployed the better it will be for the country.

I am interested in this problem because the conditions in my own city of Fort William have been worse during the past year than for many years previously. Parades of unemployed have been held', and a deputation from that city joined with the deputations from the prairie provinces to interview the Prime Minister. I will admit that for various reasons the grain blockade has had a certain effect in increasing unemployment, but I submit that the policy which this government has carried on since 1921 has resulted in the closing of industrial plants throughout the country, including a number of plants at the head of the lakes. Those plants were running when this government came into power.

Mr. GARLAND (Bow River):

What plants is the hon. member referring to?

Mr. MANION:

The Canada Starch Company's plant employed over 300 workers in 1921, and because they were refused the infinitesimal protection which they asked on starch and glucose they were forced to close their plant in 1922. I have not the time to go into this phase of the question in detail, but I would mention another plant, the Canada Iron Corporation. That plant is at present running half time because of the Belgian competition in iron products. Labour is paid about SI 20 per day in Belgium, and the duty placed upon iron products coming into this country is so small that it permits Belgian iron to be brought into Canada through the Panama canal, Vancouver, Calgary, the home

of my hon. leader, to be sold at prices lower than the Canadian products. I have named two plants to illustrate my point, but there are others in the city of Fort William which were running up to 1921.

Conditions in Fort William have been relieved to a certain extent by the action of Hon. G. Howard Ferguson's government. Considerable assistance has been given by work on roads which are being built despite the fact that it is very costly to carry on this construction during the winter period. The provincial government is constructing a portion of the trans-Canada highway, about which the hon. minister seems to have so much doubt. The provincial government has also assisted in helping to reopen a pulp mill in Fort William, which mill is now running and employing about 300 men. Deputations who attended upon the government from the province of Manitoba and other western provinces pointed out that those provinces also assisted, but this matter can be dealt with more fully by my western friends. I need only say that those deputations received no assistance from this government.

This unemployment problem is nothing new, although the Minister of Labour spoke as though he had not realized there was such a thing. I hold in my hand an article which appeared in the Toronto Globe of August 8, 1929, eight months ago, which is headed and which reads as follows:

Sleeping Under Stars, Starving Immigrants Vainly Seek Positions

Men Still Crowd Into Employment Offices, Many in State of Destitution-Professional Branch Official Supports Mayor Smaller Harvest Is Complication Last Friday the seriousness of the problem was stressed in a report in The Globe based on the words of Superintendent Dobbs of the government employment office, Front street, who, when interviewed on the subject, definitely stated that there were as many people out of work in the city of Toronto as there were during the winter months.

And the article continues:

"It is hard," said this well set-up fellow,

Referring to one of the men:

"to be an optimist on a stomach crying out for food."

And again:

The exact number of men unemployed in Toronto is not known; but so far as unemployment is concerned, officials state that this summer is the worst experienced for many years, and all are agreed that something requires to be done immediately to ease the situation in Toronto.

There would appear to be nothing new about this matter. There is one member of this

Unemployment-Mr. Manion

house who should have realized the seriousness of this matter more than any other member, and that is the Minister of Labour. His own town of Kenora has been talking about this question for many months, and I hold in my hand a resolution passed by the council of that town. Kenora is probably one of the most important towns in that section of the country.

Mr. HEENAN:

The most important town in Canada.