May 29, 1930

LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

Certainly they withdrew it for reconsideration, just as we withdrew it to permit of further consideration; but they reconsidered it at the instance of representations with respect to certain features of the treaty made by their own people.

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

The record does not show that.

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

And it does not 6how either that some hon. gentlemen from British Columbia, members of this house, got into conference with certain American citizens and sought to arrange modifications of this treaty through the avenue of Washington, rather than through the instrumentality of this parliament. That does not appear on the record either, but I believe nevertheless that it is true.

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

This parliament would not be the place.

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

It is the place for Canadians to deal with Canadian legislation.

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

The Canadian government, not the Canadian House of Commons.

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

Surely my hon. friend does not think the citizens of this country ought to go to the United States in order to make treaties for Canada.

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

I said, the Canadian government, not this house, could deal with it.

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

Article II of the previous treaty provided for the appointment of an international commission, consisting of three members from each country to regulate and develop the fishery, and, at the instance of the United States, it specified that one of the United States members would be the Commissioner of Fisheries for that country. The United States now wish this latter provision deleted. This was agreed to, and Article II has been modified accordingly.

This is another modification, not made at the instance of this country in any way, but at the wish of the United States itself to suit the representations that were made to the United States government by its own citizens. _ . * ,

Article HI of the previous treaty limited the power of the commission in connection with the removal of obstruction to the ascent of salmon, to recommending such to the two governments, but it gave the committee authority to improve conditions for the ascent of salmon. In the discussion last year before the committee it developed that there was some apprehension that under this authority potential water-powers might be interfered with. Hence in the new treaty, the commission's power in this respect is limited to recommending.

It also developed in the discussion before the committee last year that there was apprehension that under this article, should the treaty at any time be terminated, the United States would have a property interest in any works established in Canadian territory by the commission in connection with fish cultural operations. The Department of Justice, however, gave the opinion that in such contingency the United States would not have any legal right, title or interest in any such works. It is also obvious that such a commission could not properly own property, as should the treaty be terminated the commission would immediately cease to exist. Hence the word "acquire" in the fifth line of article 3 of the previous treaty served no useful purpose and has been deleted in the new treaty. It has not been deleted because of some power which the inclusion of the word "acquire" would have given to the United States to exercise any control over our country. The position, in point of fact, remains identically what it was according to the advice which we had at the time and still have from our own Department of Justice.

In order to remove all possible doubt a paragraph has been added to article 8 of the treaty, which provides that the government

2S08

Sockeye Salmon Fisheries

of either country shall acquire and place at the disposition of the commission any land within its territory required for the construction and maintenance of hatcheries, rearing ponds and other such facilities. Any structures erected on said land will continue to vest in the government of the high contracting party by which the land was acquired, at the expiration of the treaty period.

Article 4 of the previous treaty limited the authority of the commission to the period between June 1 and August 20 in each year. Canada's original draft did not limit such power to any season, but it appeared that interests in the state of Washington would not agree to a longer period as they feared other fisheries might be interfered with by the commission. It has been realized, however, that the 50-50 division in the catch provided for by the treaty could not be properly controlled in the limited period, as while the run of sockeye in United States waters is usually over by August 20, it continues later in Canadian waters. The United States' objections have now been overcome, and article 4 of the new treaty gives the commission authority to regulate the sockeye fishery throughout the year. Again the change made has been to meet certain objections not raised by this country but raised by the United States.

Article 5 is not changed in substance, except to make it apply to the whole year.

Article 6 of the previous treaty required that the affirmative vote of two commissioners from each side would be necessary for any fishery regulation. There was no such requirement in connection with the development work in the upper waters. The discussion in the committee last year seemed to indicate that it would have been considered better if this requirement applied to all operations of the commission. This article has been modified accordingly. That is one change that has been made, though whether if the treaty had been left as it was the consequences in any particular would have been different is, I think, veiy much open to question.

Article 7 is not changed.

Article 8 is modified so as to provide for proper legislation to cover extraterritorial fishing, and also as explained under article 5. The latter part of the former article 8 is covered by article 10 of the new treaty.

Article 9 is new. It provides for the control of fishing in extraterritorial waters.

Article 11 does not differ from article 9 of the previous treaty.

Now, those are the changes, and as I say, anyone reading them will see they are quite

minor changes considered in relation to the significance of the treaty as originally drafted and as originally introduced. However, let me say again, if it is going to relieve any of our friends from British Columbia of a certain embarrassment which they have experienced as a result of their attitude taken last session, why, the government is all the happier on that account.

My hon. friend from New Westminster (Mr. McQuarrie) spoke of the possible temporary injurious effect the treaty might have on some of the fishermen engaged in that industry. The underlying purpose of the treaty is to help the fishermen. Whatever will help the industry will help the fishermen in the long run. My hon. friend has been kind enough to say that this treaty was for the benefit of Canada as a whole. May I say that while that is true, the treaty is essentially and immediately for the benefit of the province of British Columbia. The whole area within which this commission will operate will be in the province of British Columbia; to the extent to which the province will benefit by the treaty, and I think it will greatly benefit, to that extent the Dominion as a whole will benefit.

Might I suggest to my hon. friend that when he goes back to British Columbia he might make to the head of the government there, who is one of his own political faith, the representations which he has been good enough to make in this house this afternoon as to caring for the fisherman who may be affected by any temporaiy changes which may result from the enforcement of the treaty. I think that would be the appropriate government to which to make his appeal, and I shall be greatly surprised if he does not find Premier Tolmie sympathetic, and prepared to meet any situation that may arise from the cause indicated.

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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CON

William Garland McQuarrie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. McQUARRIE:

Does that mean that

this government would not do anything to assist these fishermen if they were found-

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

This government has done everything in securing the treaty, and is doing everything in securing its enactment and providing for its enforcement. If when the treaty is in force representations are made to this government as to effects of its operation, those representations will certainly be considered on their merits.

May I say one further word in regard to one matter mentioned by my hon. friend from Vancouver North (Mr. McRae)? He spoke of the difficult problem which the commission

Sockeye Salmon Fisheries

will have in carrying out the duties assigned to it under the treaty, and he expressed the hope that all parties would unite in giving the commission the support it should have. I heartily join with him in that appeal. I think it will be recognized that the treaty is for the purpose of preserving a great industry, one of the real assets of our Dominion, and without question the commission will have to be firm and strong in discharging the functions assigned to it. Certainly so far as the present administration is concerned, and so far as the party to which those of us on this side of the house belong is concerned, I think I can speak in the name of both, every effort will be made to strengthen the hands of the commission in the task which it undertakes.

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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CON

William Garland McQuarrie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. McQUARRIE:

Before the Prime Minister takes his seat, would he be good enough to give an assurance that this government will not encourage the use of fish traps ip Canada?

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

I must thank

my hon. friend for his implied compliment of assuming that the government will be returned to office. I assure him that such being the case, we will do all in our power not to disappoint him in regard to any feature of the administration of this treaty.

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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CON

William Garland McQuarrie

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. McQUARRIE:

That does not answer my question at all, Mr. Chairman. As to the result of this election, of course that is for the people to say. I have one idea of what they will say, and the Prime Minister has another. I do not think, however, it is asking too much to suggest that a statement should be made in regard to the policy of the government as to fish traps.

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

I have made a statement.

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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CON

Leon Johnson Ladner

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. LADNER:

I rise to express regret that the Prime Minister, as the Minister of External Affairs, should have been disposed to view an international treaty in this way. The hon. gentleman has viewed it from a partisan standpoint.

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

What nonsense.

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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CON

Leon Johnson Ladner

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. LADNER:

The Prime Minister says no. The fact however is quite evident to those of us who know what has been going on. We can read between the lines of ithe remarks of the Prime Minister, and when we view some of his remarks which have appeared in type and consider the care with which they were recorded, it is clear to anyone who can read and can understand that the intention of those remarks and those recorded documents was of a partisan political nature.

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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LIB

William Lyon Mackenzie King (Prime Minister; President of the Privy Council; Secretary of State for External Affairs)

Liberal

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

May I say to my hon. friend that the remarks I recorded were from a statement handed to me by an officer of the department in response to a request to be advised as to the exact nature of the change. It was not a statement prepared by myself, and I never had a look at it until it was placed in my hands, and since then it has undergone no change.

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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CON

Richard Bedford Bennett (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Conservative (1867-1942)

Mr. BENNETT:

It was the Doctor Tolmie letter my hon. friend was talking about.

Topic:   SOCKEYE SALMON FISHERIES
Subtopic:   TREATY BETWEEN CANADA AND THE UNITED STATES
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May 29, 1930