Mr. MANION:

Might I say just a word

on a point of order? I should like to suggest that perhaps it might he well, for the sake of the business of the house, for all of us to keep a little closer to the bill. In mentioning that, I am not referring to any particular individual.

Mr. MICHAUD:

I agree with what the

Minister of Railways and Canals has just said. Since, however, the hon. member for Westmorland (Mr. Price) was allowed to stray from the straight and narrow path, I think I might be permitted for a minute to refute what that hon. member has just said, that the leader of the opposition and the present member for Restigouche-Madawaska were going through the district represented by that hon. gentleman and preaching depression. I think the house now understands the reason for the outcome of the election, namely, that the hon. gentleman travelled the same territory last fall and made statements just as accurate as those he has been making in this chamber to-day. Therein lies the explanation why the party he supports met such tremendous defeat. My hon. friend has been kind enough to tgive credit to the depression for my election. I shall be more generous; I shall give him instead of the depression 99 per cent of the credit for my success, because during that election he made statements just about as accurate as those he is making here to-day.

I never contended that there was no increase in business in that district, but to show how inaccurate are the statements that are made to-day, may I point out that my hon. friend mentions that lumber from Maine was carried over the Canadian National to be shipped at the port of Campbellton. It was only lumber from New Brunswick and that part of Quebec adjacent to New Brunswick that was shipped over that line.

I should like to say a word regarding the amalgamation of the two railways since this subject has been treated very elaborately this afternoon. I have no objection to any amalgamation or pooling to save expense and to try to make . a better showing, but the pooling should not be made always in favour of the Canadian Pacific. We have a glaring example of this in the fact that wherever there is danger of the Canadian Pacific losing out, the pooling is not looked upon very favour-

ably. In New Brunswick there is a section of road thirty-five miles long where the two railways run parallel within one hundred feet of each other and pooling should be done. If the Canadian National railway line were used, this would eliminate twenty overhead crossings over the trans-Canada highway. Yet the interests do not feel like pooling the running rights over that district because it is claimed it will injuriously affect the future of the Canadian Pacific in that section since, by running over the Canadian National railway, the traffic will eventually remain with that company. When it is in the general interest of the public to abandon one line or the other in a particular district, the whole matter should be viewed fairly and either one line or the other should give in.

Mr. PRICE:

If the hon. member for

Restigouche-Madawaska is of opinion that my statements were inaccurate in connection with the shipment of lumber from Maine, I suggest that he consult the Canadian National management and find out the facts, as I believe he is ignorant of conditions respecting the movement of freight traffic. If he will consult the Canadian National management, he will find that my statements are correct. A very large quantity of lumber was brought from Maine and shipped over the Canadian National to the ports of Canada. I think also he will find that the statements I made during the election campaign are borne out by the facts.

Mr. HEENAN:

I should like to draw the

attention of the minister to a statement he made the other day, obviously thinking he was right, because he was quoting Mr. Justice Fullerton, chairman of the board of trustees. This was in answer to a question by the hon. member for Quebec East, who quoted to the minister the number of employees that were being left out or laid off. The minister quoted from a letter by Mr. Justice Fullerton pointing out that ninety-six engineers, conductors, trainmen and firemen were affected by the pooling of those trains, but that they were not laid off, they just went back into other service, freight service, by the exercise of their seniority rights. That is not the correct situation. While it is true that those ninety-six senior passenger men reverted to freight and so- on down the line, there were still ninety-six men laid off at the bottom of the list, and the statement made by the minister quoting the chairman of the board of trustees, left the impression, as I noticed in one paper from Winnipeg, that not one of the men lost his posi-

C.N.R.-C.P.R.-Agreements

tion. That is a wrong impression to get out, because ninety-six men were laid off from the bottom of the list.

Mr. MANION:

I did not contradict what my hon. friend says now; I simply quoted Mr. Fullerton as saying that the ninety-six men who had been laid off from passenger trains would "bump," as the railway men say, the men below them and probably go on to freight trains. Mr. Fullerton followed that up by saying that, due to increased traffic which has been showing itself to a large extent in the last few months-in fact it began about the middle of last year-most of the men who would be "bumped" would automatically come back to work.

Mr. HEENAN:

But there would still be

ninety-six men more who would not be employed.

Mr. MANION:

I am not going to quarrel with that. I wish to say just two or three sentences in reply to some remarks that have been made. It would be a little unfortunate if the impression as implied in the speeches of some of my hon. friends, were sent out through the country that the Canadian National were getting the worst of these pooling deals, and that in some way the Canadian Pacific was improving its position and the Canadan National injuring its position.

Mr. GIROUARD:

The trains are all leaving from the Canadian Pacific station.

Mr. MANION:

My hon. friend is just making a general statement; it is not so. These pooling arrangements will in some cases be as in the case of Montreal and Quebec. In this case it appeared wise to the managements to carry on the service from the Canadian Pacific station and over their lines, but in other parts of the country it will be and has been decided to carry on the service by Canadian National. Pooling must be judged by the general results, not by some individual case. I submit with all respect that without doubt in all these pooling arrangements the Canadian National management is getting a fair deal. I do not think the Canadian Pacific management desire to give the Canadian National an unfair deal nor do I think the Canadian National management desire to give the Canadian Pacific an unfair deal. The aim is to attain economics for both. Unless there is an economy for both one or the other will refuse to go into the pooling arrangement. When both expect to gain by the movement they agree to pool.

I wish to deal briefly with one or two other points. One hon. gentleman said, if I understood aright, that as far as he could see, for years to come there was going to be a deficit on the Canadian National of from fifty to seventy-five million dollars a year. I think those were the figures he used. I am not so pessimistic as that. The Canadian National deficit this year, it is true, has been over

852,000,000, that is including interest charges, and there are some additional payments that the government has to make which will bring the amount paid by the government altogether to something like $60,000,000, not $75,000,000. This is at the very bottom of the depression. Remember that in 1933 the Canadian National took in gross earnings much less than half of what was taken in the peak year, due to the world depression, which has affected every country and all lines of industry and commerce, cutting down international trade for example by sixty per cent of what it was in 1929. Due to that the Canadian National, and the Canadian Pacific as well, have had their earnings reduced to less than half what they were in 1928, the peak year. The gross earnings of the Canadian National for instance for 1933 were less than $150,000,000, whereas in the peak year they were over $300,000,000. In view of that and the fact that without doubt Canada and the rest of the world, or at least the parts with which we are associated closely, are on the upgrade and have been for some months,-certainly this country has, and nothing shows it better than the returns of the Canadian National and the Canadian Pacific; I say in view of that there is every hope for a much better showing, particularly considering that both railways have made very extensive economies. The Canadian National, as I said the other day, has made special economies amounting to something like $15,000,000 a year on a gross earnings of $200,000,000, so if earnings go back to anything like the peak of $300,000,000 the showing will be very much better. The Canadian Pacific also has made great economies, though I cannot speak of that with as much authority as of the Canadian National. So if the business of the country comes back in the next year or year and a half to anything like normal both the Canadian Pacific and the Canadian National will get into a vastly better position than they are in to-day. Therefore I submit that there will be no such deficit as fifty or seventy-five million dollars.

Technical Education Act

I do not wish to delay my bill, lion, members have had a very general discussion and I hope they will now permit the bill to proceed.

Bill reported.

Mr. BEAUBIEN:

May I ask the Minister of Labour (Mr. Gordon) if he took into consideration the question whether there are any means whereby the provinces which have not used this money can have it made available for use in agricultural teaching and the advancement of agriculture in the colleges of these provinces?

Mr. GORDON:

I have given consideration to what the hon. member suggested when the bill was introduced. Personally I am inclined to the view that the unexpected balance can be devoted to agricultural education, but I propose to submit the question to the Justice department in order that I may get a clear interpretation of the terms used in the act. I am hopeful that the moneys can be applied to agriculture.

Mr. BEAUBIEN:

Was there not provision made some years ago that the province of Prince Edward Island could use that money for agricultural teaching?

Mr. GORDON:

Mr. Speaker, I believe

there was an act of parliament passed making the moneys available for Prince Edward Island. However, as I said, I will go further into the matter in the hope that the unexpected balance can be devoted to the purposes suggested.

Bill reported, read the third time and passed.

Mr. ELLIOTT:

I wonder if the minister

would give us an explanation of this reduction.

Hon. D. M. SUTHERLAND (Minister of National Defence):

As my hon. friend knows, when this item was under discussion last year I said it would be reduced this year, and it has been reduced. The largest reduction is in connection with the number of cadets for whom the allowance is paid; that is, allowances will be paid for only 55,000 cadets throughout Canada, and in addition the staffs have been reduced very generally.