Hon. HUGH GUTHRIE (Minister of Justice) moved:

That standing order 63 of the House of Commons, relating to the appointment of select standing committees of the house be amended by adding to the select standing committees of the house for the present session a select standing committee on railways and shipping, owned, operated and controlled by the government to which will be referred the accounts and the estimates of the Canadian National Railways and the Canadian Government Merchant Marine for the present session, for consideration and report to the house; provided however, that nothing in the resolution shall be construed to curtail in any way the full right of discussion in committee of supply, and that said committee consist of: Messrs. Beaubien, Beaubier, Bell (St. Antoine), Bothwell, Cantley, Chaplin, Duff, Euler, Fiset, Fraser (Cariboo), Geary, Gray, Gobeil, Hanbury, Heaps, Kennedy (Peace River), McGibbon, MacMillan (Saskatoon), Manion, Power, Price, and Stewart (Lethbridge).

I beg to say that this is in the same form as the motions previously moved in this respect.

Mr. WILFRED HANBURY (Vancouver-Burrard):

Before the motion is put to the house; in view of the guarantee of the credit of the Canadian Pacific Railway given by the government, and particularly in view of the statement issued in connection with the request for similar guarantees by the government of British Columbia, I wish to move this amendment:

That the first paragraph of the motion before the house be amended to read as follows:

That standing order 63 of the House of Commons relating to the appointment of the select standing committees of the house be amended by adding to the select standing committees of the house for the present session, a select standing committee on railways and shipping, owned, operated and controlled by the government, or whose borrowings have been guaranteed by the government, to which will be referred the accounts and the estimates of the Canadian National Railways and the Canadian Government Merchant Marine for the present session, together with the accounts and estimates of the Canadian Pacific Railway, and their subsidiary companies, for consideration and report to the house.

In speaking before the annual meeting of shareholders of the Canadian Pacific Railway at Montreal during the present week, Mr. Beatty, the president of that company, stressed the seriousness of the railway situ-

Railways and Shipping

ation, we will assume with particular reference to his own company. He spoke of the necessity for a greater degree of unification of services and operation. He has indeed painted a very dark picture of the future outlook for the railways of Canada.

Therefore I believe that the affairs of the Canadian Pacific Railway should be investigated by this house, based on our guarantee of their securities. In support of that view I wish to quote what this government have said to the province of British Columbia- quite properly I think-that if the government of the province of British Columbia are to come to this government and ask for financial relief, this government should have the opportunity of reviewing their estimates. In order that the members of this house may get the full picture I consider it advisable to read the whole letter addressed by the Prime Minister of Canada to Mr. Pattullo, the premier of British Columbia, although perhaps it is not all germane to the point under discussion:

Ottawa, May 2, 1934.

Dear Mr. Pattullo,

Your request for financial assistance has been given the most careful consideration by council, and in reviewing your position we have had before us the letter of the Hon. John Hart, addressed to the Minister of Finance on February 26, which we have considered in the light of the letter addressed to Mr. Hart by the Minister of Finance on March 29, as well as the telegrams which have been exchanged between us on the same subject.

Notwithstanding our own financial problems, which are onerous and difficult, it is the desire of the government to assist you to the best of our ability, but we cannot in justice to the taxpayers of the dominion accept the statement of your requirements as outlined in Mr. Hart's letter of March 26 as representing a complete effort on your part to deal with your financial position.

We must, therefore, ask you to submit a revised program which will substantially reduce your contemplated deficit of $2,120,330.66 on ordinary account for the current year, which you anticipate notwithstanding your abandonment of sinking fund requirements which amounted to $2,421,620 last year.

As the preparation of this statement cannot be made until Mr. Hart returns to Victoria, and you appear to be in pressing need of immediate funds, we are prepared to advance such sums as may be necessary to meet your immediate and pressing requirements on the understanding that your revised program is to be submitted sometime within the next four or five weeks at the outside.

It would be desirable to ask you to submit a statement which would show something appoaching a balance on current account; however, realizing your difficulties and with the desire to be helpful, we will not go so far as to ask that this should be done, but we must expect the contemplated deficit to be reduced to something in the neighbourhood of $1,000,000 at the outside.

When we receive such a revised program, we will give it favourable consideration and you will be advised promptly as to whether we are prepared to make advances from time to time in conformity with your revised program up to the end of the current fiscal year.

Apart altogether from the justice of this request as affecting your province, may I point out that it has been our endeavour to deal with absolute fairness with the requests from each of the four western provinces and it would be most unfair if greater consideration should be shown to British Columbia than to any other province.

In all of these circumstances, I trust you will recognize the fairness of this proposal, and m accepting it recognize the fact that it is the best we can make.

I repeat, Mr. Speaker, that my object in referring to this communication is not to bring the problems of British Columbia before this house but to substantiate the statement I made that the Prime Minister and the government of Canada are requiring-and I think rightly so-from the government of British Columbia the right to review their accounts. We have guaranteed the borrowings of the Canadian Pacific Railway up to $60,000,000, and in the amendment which I am submitting to the house I say we have the right to that information from the Canadian Pacific Railway.

Hon. HUGH GUTHRIE (Minister of Justice) :

Mr. Speaker, let me raise the point of order in the first place. I submit that the amendment is out of order and is not properly an amendment to the motion at all.

Why?

Mr. GUTHRIE:

I am going to explain why, if hon. gentlemen will be patient. The motion deals exclusively with one subject, absolutely under the jurisdiction of this parliament, having regard to a railway undertaking owned and controlled by the government or the people of Canada. For the last three or four years it has been customary to introduce similar motions, dealing exclusively with the Canadian National Railways and its undertakings. The object of the amendment is to permit the house to go on with that inquiry into the affairs of the Canadian National Railways, but in addition it endeavours to bring in an entirely different enterprise that has nothing to do with the Canadian National Railways. I submit that if the motion is proper it is a substantive motion and should be brought before the house as such, with notice given in the ordinary way.

Therefore I would ask you, Mr. Speaker, to rule that the amendment is out of order at this time.

Railways and Shipping

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):

Could the house have the benefit of hearing the original motion read again?

Mr. SPEAKER:

The motion is that standing order 63 of the House of Commons relating to the appointment of select standing committees of the house be amended by adding to the select standing committees of the house for the present session a select standing committee on railways and shipping owned, operated and controlled by the government to which will be referred the accounts and estimates of the Canadian National Railways and the Canadian Government Merchant Marine for the present session for consideration and report to the house provided, however, that nothing in the resolution shall be construed to curtail in any way the full right of discussion in committee of supply, and that said committee consist of Messrs. Beaubien and so on.

Mr. J. S. WOODSWORTH (Winnipeg North Centre):

Mr. Speaker, although this amendment undoubtedly refers to the committee the accounts of another institution I submit that this is quite in line with the work that has been carried on by that committee in the past, and which it is proposed shall be done by the committee this year. Last year the Prime Minister told us very distinctly that the Canadian National was not owned by the people of Canada but by the bondholders and that it was being carried forward for the sake of the bondholders. Yet we feel ourselves quite competent to conduct an investigation into the affairs of this company, nominally owned by the people of Canada but in reality owned by the bondholders.

I take it that the Canadian Pacific is in a very different position this year than has been the case in the past. Though it is a privately owned road it has come to this government to have its bonds guaranteed, with no opportunity for this house to examine the books of the company in order to ascertain whether or not that guarantee is needed ,or whether or not in the future a similar guarantee may be applied for. Surely parliament has the right to investigate anything of this nature; I think no one will deny that, and there could be no more appropriate committee than that which is investigating the affairs of the other corporation. I hope this amendment will not be ruled out of order on a mere technicality. It seems to me that it would be very far fetched to say we could not include a second railway in this motion.

Hon. IAN MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

I am not speaking at all to the

FMr Guthrie.1

merits or demerits of the amendment but rather to the point of order which has been raised by the Minister of Justice (Mr. Guthrie). As I interpret the amendment moved by the hon. member for Vancouver-Burrard (Mr. Hanbury) it only adds to the motion of the Minister of Justice the words, "or whose borrowings have been guaranteed by the government." I do suggest very strongly indeed that it is a very proper amendment to the motion which has been moved. The minister moved the customary motion to set up this committee, and the amendment of the hon. member is to add the words, "or whose borrowings have been guaranteed by the government." Apart altogether from the merits of the matter surely that is a proper amendment, since it merely suggests an extension of the investigation to be carried on by the proposed committee. I submit that this is a very proper and timely amendment to the motion which has been moved by the Minister of Justice.

Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Quebec East):

If the views expressed by my hon. friend the Minister of Justice (Mr. Guthrie) should prevail it would be impossible to move an amendment to any motion of this nature. This amendment is not contrary to what is proposed by the motion of the Minister of Justice; it simply adds something to that motion and it is germane to the principle of the resolution, namely that this committee on railways and shipping shall investigate not only the railways owned, operated and controlled by the government but also those whose borrowings have been guaranteed by the government. Surely there is nothing out of order in this amendment.

Mr. GUTHRIE:

It names another incorporation, the Canadian Pacific Railway. If that matter can be dragged in by a motion of this kind we might just as well say that we can investigate the finances of the province of British Columbia under the same motion. I am not discussing the propriety of such an inquiry; the point of order I raised had reference only to the question of whether that could be done by an amendment to this motion. An inquiry may be quite proper, and there wifi be opportunity every day this house meets to bring in such a motion if it is desirable, but it cannot be launched as an amendment to a specific motion such as the one I moved. We have had no notice of it, either.

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver):

The

minister has spoken twice on the point of order, so perhaps I may be allowed to reply.

Railways and Shipping

This is a committee to deal peculiarly with the question of railways, and this guarantee of $60,000,000 was given specifically to one particular railway corporation. By this resolution we are not entitled to investigate all guarantees given by the government, but we are entitled to investigate the guarantee given to the Canadian Pacific Railway.

Mr. SPEAKER:

I am of the opinion that the amendment is a substantive motion. An amendment to the motion before the house could be drawn, but not I take it, in this form. It does not strike out those portions of the motion before the house which are not included in the proposed amendment, which should be done if the intent of the amendment is to be carried out. I hold that this is a substantive motion, that it is not a proper amendment and is not in order.

Mr. Hi ANBURY:

I very much regret, Mr. Speaker, that I must ask the house to divide on your ruling. I must appeal from your decision.

Mr. SPEAKER:

Before the pairs

announced-

Mr. CASGRAIN:

Before the pairs are announced I should like to say-

Mr. SPEAKER:

I am addressing the house. Mr. MacLean asked that his vote be cancelled. I am afraid that cannot be done.

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

Inadvertently I did not notice the absence of the Prime Minister with whom I am paired. I should like to have my vote struck out.

Mr. SPEAKER:

With the consent of the house the votes of Mr. MacLean and the right hon. leader of the oppostion will be cancelled.