Mr. DURANLEAU:

Mr. Chairman, I do not intend to enter into debate with my hon. friend from Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) for this bill merely provides that the commission will carry on for two more months in order to give the house after the recess an opportunity to study the question and decide whether a new policy should be adopted. I should like, however, to answer my hon. friend's point that this bill should not be in the name of the Prime Minister. I felt that, as the first bill providing for the incorporation of the Canadian radio broadcasting commission was in the name of the Prime Minister, and properly so, subsequent bills amending the first one should also be in his name.

As to the authority of the Minister of Marine over the radio commission, I have had occasion to give my views to this house during the last two sessions, and I think I have also told my hon. friend from Temiscouata; the statute speaks for itself, and I am sure that my hon. friend who is a lawyeT practising at Riviere du Loup has carefully studied

that particular law from the first word to the last, and knows exactly what is the authority of the Minister of Marine and of the government over the radio commission.

The radio commission was incorporated by this house, and this house has authority over the commission. It was the unanimous desire of the house that this commission should be secured against all political interference, and that is the reason why the radio commission, as far as its programs are concerned, is absolutely independent of the minister. The minister has some authority in the matter of issuing station licences, and whatever may be said by my hon. friend, I have exercised that authority. My hon. friend, probably in order to make some political capital in the province of Quebec, states that I do not exercise my powers and that that is an indignity to the province of Quebec. I say that my hon. friend is entirely wrong. I have attended almost every radio celebration in the province of Quebec. I have attended the opening of almost all the radio stations in the province of Quebec-

Mr. LAPOINTE:

Hear, hear.

Mr. DURANLEAU:

And I may tell my

hon. friends from Quebec, even my hon. friend from Quebec East (Mr. Lapointe), who says "hear, hear," that the words that I have used on those occasions were not an indignity to my province. I invite my hon. friends to read what I have said on those occasions. I am sure, Mr. Chairman, that my hon. friend from Temiscouata is not serious when he uses such language before this committee, and when he speaks of an indignity to our province I think he should be careful himself, because all of us from the province of Quebec represent our province as well as the whole of 'Canada, and we should always do our utmost to give the best possible representation to our province.

Mr. LAPOINTE:

Mr. Chairman, I think

the words of my hon. friend the minister (Mr. Duranleau) justify the criticism of my hon. friend from Temiscouata (Mr. Pouliot) because the minister admits that whenever there is a celebration he is there to take part in it, whenever there is an opening of a radio broadcasting station he is there with a speech, and he tells us that his speech is really up to the mark and rather brings glory to the province he represents in the government.

Mr. DURANLEAU:

Pardon me, I did not say that.

Mr. LAPOINTE:

I would like the minister to do a little more than attend celebra-

Radio Broadcasting

tions and make speeches. He should go further and introduce into this house the bills that refer to the radio broadcasting commission. True it is that when the commission was first organized the Prime Minister was in charge of the bill, but the commission has been placed under my hon. friend and he is now looking after its affairs'and everything relating to the radio commission is brought before this house through him. But he is not alone in this respect, Mr. Chairman, because other ministers as well have seen their legislation taken away from them and introduced by the Prime Minister.

While I am on my feet may I say this? I am pleased that the minister has said that when the original bill was enacted incorporating the radio broadcasting commission the house was unanimously of the opinion that politics should be kept out of it. That is why I complain, Mr. Chairman, because in the very first year of the radio commission the organizer o.f the party of my hon. friend was appointed to the commission. I have nothing to say against him, and in fact he is no longer a member of the commission, but we had quite a debate in this house over the matter. That gentleman resigned from the commission. He was the Conservative organizer for the district of Quebec in the last general election and the government replaced him with the Conservative organizer for the other part of the province of Quebec, the district of Montreal. I do not think that is fair to the house, especially when my hon. friend admits that it was unanimously agreed by this house that politics should be kept out of the radio commission. We are going to have a general election very soon, and radio broadcasting is now a very valuable instrument of propaganda during an election campaign. It is used extensively and I think that some arrangement should be made. I take advantage of this opportunity to say this, so that fairness towards all political groups and parties, on the part of the authorities who control broadcasting in Canada, should be assured. I must confess that the way the whole thing has been done for the last three years does not give me much confidence in the impartiality which we may expect on the part of those who are at the head of the radio commission, but I hope I am mistaken in this regard and that the future will prove that they will treat everyone fairly. Again however I say that my hon. friend should take charge of the bill because it is one that comes under his department and, according to all parliamentary precedent, should have been initiated by himself.

Mr. DURANLEAU:

Only a word in answer to the statements of my hon. friend as to the two appointments to the radio commission from the province of Quebec. As to the first appointment, the matter was raised in the house two years ago and the Prime Minister gave, I think, a complete answer to the charge which was made at that time. It is true that the gentleman had been a candidate at the last election, but he had been employed by the Liberal administration of Quebec. He had been an outstanding forestry engineer under the Taschereau administration and the Gouin administration, if I remember rightly, and when he was appointed he swore that he would be absolutely independent of politics. I think my hon. friend from Quebec East will admit that this gentleman was fair to everyone when he was a commissioner and that he may well be proud of his administrative record. I am pleased to say that Mr. Maher, during the time he has been on the commission has been considered by everyone as an able business man who has fulfilled his duties in a most satisfactory manner.

Mr. DUPUIS:

What is the cause of his departure from the commission?

Mr. DURANLEAU:

The hon. member

might put that question to Mr. Maher. I know for some time he had been asking to be relieved of his public duties, and he sent in his resignation, and now he is in business. As to the second appointment, I do not think my hon. friend from Quebec East represents the views of the great majority of his followers in this house and outside of this house when he challenges it.

Mr. LAPOINTE:

Is it true he was the organizer?

Mr. DURANLEAU:

My hon. friend says that Mr. Cartier had been organizer of the party. I may tell him he is absolutely wrong in that respect. True it is he gave some help during the last election, but I can tell my hon. friend that for two or three years he has been absolutely out of politics, and I challenge anyone in this house to prove that within at least two years of his appointment he carried on any political activities.

Mr. LAPOINTE:

There has been no

campaign.

Mr. DURANLEAU:

Let me say further, he has been the pioneer of radio in this country; his competency is admitted by everyone. His appointment was received all over Canada with praise for this government and I think that since he has been in his office

Radio Broadcasting

he has shown himself to be very competent and absolutely independent of party politics.

I challenge my hon. friend to cite one instance where he has not been fair to everyone who has had something to do with the broadcasting stations under the commission.

Mr. POULIOT:

What about Mr. Charles-worth?

Mr. DURANLEAU:

The stations under the radio commission have been open to everyone, to every political party when they were prepared to pay the usual charges. When we on this side of the house use the radio commission's stations we pay the full charge, and my hon. friends have exactly the same opportunity. If it can be provided that the radio commission has been unfair or unjust to any political party I want to be told about it and I will correct the situation immediately.

Mr. POULIOT:

What about Mr. Charlesworth?

Mr. EULER:

It had been my intention to make my observations, and perhaps criticisms, when the Minister of Marine brought the radio estimates before the committee, but the acting Prime Minister yesterday stated in introducing this simple bill that it provided only for the continuance for two months of the commission as at present constituted, and that this was to be followed by an entirely new bill which-Sir GEORGE PERLEY: I beg your

pardon; I do not think I said that.

Mr. EULER:

I was reading the press,and perhaps the press was reading into the mind of the acting Prime Minister something that is not there. However, I think it is correct to say that it is the intention of the government after the recess to introduce a new bill which will deal with the radio

situation; otherwise one can hardly conceive of a sufficient reason why this particular status should be prolonged for a period of even two months. It seems to me, in view of the probability that we are going to have a new bill to deal perhaps in an entirely different way with radio matters, that this is the time to make suggestions and perhaps criticisms if they are to be of value in the framing of the bill which is to follow. Perhaps I flatter myself and other members of the opposition if I say that we have any confidence whatever that what we may say will be taken into consideration by the government. but I am willing to give them credit for ordinary common sense and fairness in a matter of this kind.

In 1932 a committee was appointed by the government to consider what was proper to be done in connection with radio, with a special view to its nationalization. I happened to be a member of that committee and I have never sat on a committee that acted more harmoniously than did that one. Our report was unanimous. We recommended the nationalization of radio, and that provision should be made for the building of five great radio stations of great power to serve all the people of Canada-for there was a great deal of complaint that there was not sufficient coverage and that certain parts of the country did not enjoy proper radio reception. The bill was introduced by the Prime Minister and in a very eloquent and convincing speech he laid before the house the principles upon which radio should be publicly owned and operated. Perhaps I need not go into this particularly, but as I shall make one or two criticisms it is fair for me to say what were the .principles on which radio was inaugurated and then to point out wherein those principles have not been followed.

In the first place the Prime Minister referred to the fact that radio is a natural monopoly That is quite true, and because it was of such great importance and the channels are limited, it should not become the property of private persons. With that I entirely agree. Then he stated that radio could be of immense benefit to the Canadian people as a whole in the creation of a Canadian sentiment, to encourage Canadian talent, to educate the Canadian people along Canadian lines and to ensure-and I want to emphasize this-that Canadian radio broadcasting would remain free from foreign domination. It was distinctly understood that there should be a gradual approximation of radio broadcasting into public ownership channels; that private ownership except in the very small stations and small communities should be abolished, and that the country in general would do the radio broadcasting. As I said, we all supported this. I had the privilege of seconding in the house the adoption of the report upon which the legislation was subsequently based, and when the Prime Minister introduced his bill, some of us spoke in favour of it. I recall at that time I asked him to state whether it was his intention that there should be no political influence or bias exercised in appointments that might be made either to the radio commission or of those who would operate it, and we received a very direct promise from the Prime Minister that there would not be anything of that sort. I remember very well the leader of the opposition making the practical suggestion that in appointments of

Radio Broadcasting

members of the commission, the respective parties might be consulted and proper persons selected upon whom no reflection could be cast as having been the beneficiaries of political influence. The Prime Minister made no absolute promise that he would accede to the suggestion, but the fact remains that he did not follow that course. If a success is to be made of public ownership of any sort, whether it be the Canadian National Railways or the Canadian broadcasting commission, politics must be kept out of it and it must be so conducted that the confidence of the Canadian public may be maintained. That confidence has in my judgment been lost to a very large extent. It is not necessary for me to refer again to what the hon. member for Quebec East has said, namely, that in the very first appointment the Prime Minister, to put it mildly, made an error of judgment when he appointed to that commission a gentleman who certainly had very strong political leanings and had been a political organizer.

Mr. CASGRAI-N: A political candidate.

Mr. EULER:

Surely there could have been found in the good province of Quebec a gentleman who would not be open to that charge. At the end of the first year of operation of the commission there were a good many complaints. That perhaps was to be expected. When an organization gets under way in an entirely new enterprise, it has its difficulties and must expect to receive some criticism, but some of those complaints were founded and indeed I made some of them myself. In fact, so dissatisfied was the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Woodsworth) that he actually made the statement that he was afraid that radio broadcasting had become the property or was under the control of the Conservative party. I did not make that statement; I give that merely as an indication of what I have said before, namely, that there was a distinct suspicion- and I had it also-that politics did enter to some extent into the operation of the national broadcasting commission.

Another committee was called last year to deal with the objections which were raised. That committee made a report that the general set-up should be changed; that there should be a manager, and in the original report and I think in the bill itself it was provided that there should be an assistant commissioner appointed for each of the provinces. Nothing was ever done with regard to that. Then before last year's committee-and I was not a member of it-a former employee of the commission and in my opinion a very competent man, made very distinct and

definite charges with regard to the operation of broadcasting in this country through the commission. I have read some of the evidence and to my mind it has never been adequately answered by the commission itself.

The Prime Minister complained of the attacks that were made upon public ownership of the broadcasting commission. I think there is some reason for this. Practically none of the purposes for which the commission was created has been carried out to any appreciable extent. No big plan of public ownership has been adopted. It was intended, as I said before, that five powerful radio broadcasting stations should be established throughout Canada, but really nothing in that regard has been done. Three years ago we had in this country forty-nine broadcasting stations, all privately owned. One would think when the government took over broadcasting under public ownership, that number would tend to diminish rather than to increase; yet whereas we had forty-nine privately owned broadcasting stations three years ago, we now have fifty-nine stations and only seven publicly controlled or owned. I may be open to correction on this, but I think I am right in saying that except in Ottawa, Quebec city and that good city of Windsor from which our chairman comes, no attempt has been made to give greater coverage to publicly owned radio broadcasting. Private stations on the contrary have been given increased power, and the whole tendency to my mind has been not to promote public radio broadcasting, but to add more power to and to increase the number of private broadcasting stations.

Let us take for a moment a general view across Canada from coast to coast. As to this of course I have to take my information as I have heard it; I think it is accurate', but there are members who might feel afterwards like contradicting me. In Vancouver three years ago there were six duplicating private broadcasting stations. No change has taken place there, and I think I have heard complaints from some British Columbia members on this side with regard to the service. In Calgary there are three private broadcasting stations and one of those has increased its power to 10,000 watts. A promise was made in 1933 I think that British Columbia and Saskatchewan were to have two big broadcasting stations, but nothing has been done. In Winnipeg there is one station owned by the Manitoba government, and the wattage has been increased from 5,000 to 15,000. I have no complaint to make with regard to that.