Mr. HOWE:

I suppose it costs some money to transport men, whether they travel free or not. People do not exactly travel free; someone has to pay for moving them, I take it.

Mr. MacNICOL:

It seems to me that this is going too far. In Washington they talk about pork barrels, but this whole matter begins to look more or less like a pork barrel. I cannot see any reason why this country should pay the railways for transporting their own men whom they now transport free. If they have certain employees moving from one job to another to-day they carry them free. This country, in the present state of affairs, desires to have every dollar find its way into the pockets of the men who are to be employed in this work; it wishes to give every unemployed man a chance to earn every dollar he can. But here we are proposing to pay the railways for transporting their own men. They would transport them free if they were transporting them to an employment job.

Supply-Railways-Reliej Works

Mr. HOWE:

I should explain to hon. members who, evidently, live in cities that these men on maintenance of way work live in cars; they sleep there and eat there; and as the work progresses these cars have to be moved, and the men in them. This procedure involves certain cost. An engine has to be brought out and hooked on to these boarding cars, in order that they may be moved to a place which is suitable as a camp for these men. That is the purpose for which we are lending the railways the money. It is a real expense to the railroads, and we are loaning the money, not giving it to them; they will pay it back.

Mr. BEAUBIER:

It is customary for employees on a railroad who are maintenance of way men to be transferred from point to point free of charge, as they are passed from one location to another. Do I understand that there will be a deduction from the men's pay for transportation; that that will be a charge against the men?

Mr. HOWE:

No, it is a cost to the railway. Of course the railway moves these men; it costs the men nothing when they are employed. The place in which they live is moved somewhere else, and they move with it.

Mr. WOODSWORTH:

Will the minister give us some idea of the rate of interest to be paid and when payment is to be made? I see that all this is left to the governor in council. Surely this committee has a right to know, if the government is to be banker to the Canadian Pacific Railway, what rate of interest the railway is going to pay for this accommodation.

Mr. HOWE:

The arrangement with the Canadian Pacific Railway was that this loan should be a short term accommodation loan and that the rate should approximate what the government pays for short term money, that is, the cost to the government of a loan for an equivalent period. It was left to the Minister of Finance to determine what that rate would be, and I do not think it has yet been decided. I assume that it will be around three, or three and a half per cent.

Mr. WOODSWORTH:

For how long is this loan to be made?

Mr. HOWE:

It is payable annually over five years in equal instalments.

Mr. STEWART:

Is it the intention of the minister that unemployed men shall be engaged in this work? Is it an unemployment relief scheme?

Mr. HOWE:

This is to cover the railroads' supervision for using the unemployed for whom we voted the $3,100,000 item a while ago.

Mr. COLDWELL:

To return for a moment to the question of interest. It strikes me that the railway company is getting a rate which is not accorded to any other group of employers or industrialists in the country. If the government is going into the banking business, giving loans at three or three and a half per cent to the railways, it would seem only right and just that the farm loan board, for example, should reduce its interest rates to farmers who are borrowing money and who are another type of employer, of course in a smaller way, but nevertheless, in the aggregate, larger employers than even the railway itself. I think this principle is all wrong. I think also the discussion to-night has brought out in relation to this agreement a number of points which cannot be defended in the light of what other people are doing in the country. Although I am in favour of finding employment for the men, I am not in favour of these heavy subsidies to the railway companies, and I believe that resolutions which have already been passed, to my own knowledge, by farmers' organizations asking for the same treatment as the Canadian Pacific Railway is getting, are fully justified by the discussion that we have had in this chamber to-night.

Mr. STEVENS:

Will the minister explain

what this item refers to?

Mr. HOWE:

It is entirely a revote of

loans which were begun in 1936 as an employment measure, and which were repayable as the equipment was put into use. This is the balance of the moneys that will be expended for this purpose this year. Of course this money is on loan to the railway companies.

Supply-Railways-Relief Works

Sir GEORGE PERLEY:

Will the minister give us some details of the amounts and the dates? These arrangements were made at various times, I take it?

Mr. HOWE:

Yes.

Sir GEORGE PERLEY:

And both railways have them? The minister must have some statement giving the details and the dates on which these arrangements were made, and the amounts in each case.

Mr. HOWE:

This was work authorized

under the 1935 Supplementary Public Works Construction Act. This equipment was to be built and sold to railways on an equipment rental basis. It includes: Canadian Car and Foundry Company, 80 sand cars; expenditure last year, 8269,566.40; required this year, nothing. Canadian Car and Foundry Company, 250 automobile cars; expenditure last year, 8903,015; required this year, nothing. Eastern Car Company Limited, 200 refrigerator cars; expenditure last year, $900,793.60; required this year, $244,006.40. Eastern Car Company Limited, 250 gondola cars; expenditure last year, $834,657.25; required this year, nothing. National Steel Car Corporation Limited, 8 snow ploughs; expenditure last year, $75,457.44; required this year, nothing. National Steel Car Corporation Limited, 150 automobile cars; expenditure last year, nothing; required this year, $552,525. Canadian National Railway Company, 250 refrigerator cars; expended last year, 8901,000; required this year, 8424,000. Montreal Locomotive Works Limited, five locomotives; expended last year, nothing; required this year, $609,500. Montreal Locomotive Works Limited, five locomotives; expended last year, nothing; required this year, 8556,500. Canadian Locomotive Company, Limited, five locomotives; expended last year, nothing; required this year, $492,900. Contingencies this year, $36,078.91.

Sir GEORGE PERLEY:

Is that all?