Mr. MacNICOL:

I wish to suggest to

the minister that when architects outside his own department are engaged to draw plans, the plans they draw should have the full approval of the architects within his department. Maybe they have. But if they have, the general outline of buildings which in the past have been drawn up by architects in the department is not being followed in respect

4816 ( . COMMONS

Supply-Public Works-Architect's Branch

of new buildings. Perhaps it is not the policy of the department to do what I suggest, but I would imagine that any plans drawn for the department should have in the end the full approval of the department's architects.

Hon. P. J. A. CARDIN (Minister of Public Works) :

What my hon. friend is suggesting

is the practice of the department. If the services of an outside architect are required, when his plans are ready they are approved by the department before tenders are called for.

Mr. MacNICOL:

I am glad to know that is so. My information was that the practice was otherwise. [DOT]

Mr. HARTIGAN:

Comparing this amount of $3,556,020 with the $2,817,357 spent for the maintenance and operation of dominion public buildings and grounds in Ottawa, I submit that the vote for Ottawa of practically $3,000,000 is, to say the least, out of proportion to an amount of only $3,500,000 to be expended throughout Canada. In this connection I have in mind a town in Nova Scotia, the town of Dominion. Although there are public buildings scattered all over the Dominion of Canada, there is not and never has been one in the town of Dominion. It is a long established town, yet they have not even a post office of their own; quarters are rented for a post office.

When I think of the amount of money spent in Ottawa, practically $3,000,000, and throughout Canada some $3,500,000 for the maintenance of grounds and buildings in cities and towns, I cannot help thinking that there is a marked disparity between the amount appropriated for some other places and the amount spent in Dominion. I am not asking for a large building, but at least the people there should have a respectable public building and a standard post office from which the Canadian flag or the union jack could fly. But there is no public building of any sort in that community. It is not fair. I admit that the revenue is not large; but, after all, that is not the sole consideration. Surely the government wishes to maintain a certain standard in its public buildings.

I do not see why we should be continually considering the revenue^producing capacity of any building in Canada. I venture to say there are many public buildings that could not begin to liquidate the capital expenditure

fMr. MacNicol.f

involved in their erection. I am not criticizing the department; I am speaking of the government as a whole,' and I am discussing public facilities, provided by the government to the .various provinces. I believe that we are too prone, whenever we are discussing any public building, to think mainly of the revenue that can be derived from it. That is the wrong attitude, and from my observations in the past four years it is becoming more and more evident. I think the fault lies with our system of government in Ottawa. Our civil servants are thinking too much in terms of revenues from amounts invested tq-day, forgetting the vast sums of money which, expended in the past, have yielded no revenues. One has only to look at the canals in Canada and other public works as well. Go down the St. Lawrence and look at that vast canal system which Norwegians and people from other countries make use of without paying any toll to the government. Again, I am not criticizing the federal administration with regard to all these public works. In my opinion they are wonderful feats of engineering and are a tribute to Canada; but it seems to me that the department lays undue emphasis upon the question of revenue. I repeat, I am not criticizing the minister. I give him full credit for all he has done. He is a genius, a prodigy; I have often admired his ability to stand up under strain. I am simply asking him to give some consideration to the smaller towns and to provide us with at least a small-sized post office in the community of which I speak.

Mr. CARDIN:

My hon. friend has made an able plea for a public building at Dominion in his constituency. I will make a note of his remarks and I promise that next year I shall give careful attention to his request.

Mr. STEWART:

The minister has been referring to the construction of public buildings, and I know the demands for them are many and the pressure is sometimes very strong in smaller communities where perhaps revenue and other considerations might appear on the surface not to justify the construction of these buildings. I recall that in some instances a policy was adopted of encouraging municipalities to construct community buildings, a part of the building in the community serving post office and other public requirements. That is an admirable policy. Local communities do now need buildings of this kind. Every community needs a building that will afford accommodation for local activities, a building which must necessarily be under their own control and not under the government, and post office and other accommodation are sometimes required in such communities.

Supply-Public Works-Architect's Branch

In most of the smaller communities the importance of the post office is diminishing. Even in the larger towns, the post office was the centre to which everyone resorted for mail and other business purposes. With deliveries in towns and cities and with rural mail delivery the post office is not as important nowadays as it was in years gone by. The same amount of space may be required, but the building is not resorted to in the same measure as in the past. If the minister can promote the policy of paying a generous rental in the smaller communities for the necessary space provided for post office and other public purposes he thereby serves a double end. He can pay a generous rental and still save money, and he can at the same time contribute to the construction and maintenance in the community of a building devoted to other purposes than those required for the post office. The minister knows of instances in which that has been done and the department has endeavoured to construct smaller post office buildings, but these seldom give satisfaction to the community. If the size of the building is limited to the actual requirements of the post office in some of the smaller communities, the people say the building is not creditable, they are ashamed of it, and they do not want it at all. There is the difficulty, and it can be overcome by the course I have suggested, of agreeing to pay a generous rental for space in a community building.

Mr. CARDIN:

I greatly sympathize with the hon. member's views; in fact, in many places, the post office is to be found in the community building; and the rental we pay helps materially to pay for the building, to meet interest and capital invested by the municipality. In some instances the municipality asks too large a rental or contribution to the building, but whenever possible the policy suggested should be adopted.

Mr. PELLETIER:

Would this include any vote for the proposed post office in Peace River?

Mr. CARDIN:

No, that will foe taken care of in the supplementary estimates. These are the main estimates and provide only for the general maintenance of buildings we already have.

Mr. MacNICOL:

What are. the regulations in reference to flying flags over public buildings?

Mr. CARDIN:

The flags are on every building throughout Canada every day in the year.

Mr. MacNICOL:

The union jack?

Mr. CARDIN:

Yes.

Mr. EMMERSON:

How does this vote differ from item 298? To what does it apply? For instance, there was an amount of $50,000 for the maritime provinces for dominion public buildings. This item is for dominion public buildings generalh', $200,000. What is the difference?

Mr. CARDIN:

This provides for repairs, alterations, fittings and improvements which may be required in any of the public buildings controlled by the Department of Public Works throughout the country.

Mr. EMMERSON:

Is not the other for maintenance and repairs as well?