country. Companies eligible to become member companies of the proposed central mortgage bank now confine most of their lending activities to mortgages on non-farm homes. Consequently, the provisions of the bill designed to make available long term funds at low interest rates to be lent in accordance with the principles in subsection 3 of section 22 of the bill would have little practical effect; and disagrees with amendment No. 1 for the following reasons: 1. Because this amendment would deprive farmers who entered into agreements for sale during the year 1938 at a time when grain prices were high, and following a year in which there had been a good harvest, of the privilege of having their agreements for sale adjusted in accordance with the provisions of the bill. 2. Because in many cases the original cash payments made by such farmers were very small and with the decline in prices and poorer crops in the year 1938 such farmers now have little or no equity in their farms; And that the clerk do carry the said message to the senate. It only remains for me to indicate the purport of those amendments with which I recommend agreement. Amendment No. 7 is a clerical amendment only: after the word "and" insert the word "that."
Mr. STEVENS:
Where?
Mr. DUNNING:
On page 7, line 35 of
the bill. Amendment No. 10 is on page 9, line 9: after the word "other" insert the word "lawful." I agree with that.
Amendment No. 11, is on page 9, lines 47 and 48: leave out "and dividends accumulated."
Amendment No. 12, is on page 10, lines 1 to 4 inclusive: leave out "together with such other provisions as the governor in council deems necessary to give effect to the provisions of this act according to their true intent, meaning and spirit." Those words are left out, and by another senate amendment, No. 13, a new subclause 3 of clause 16 is inserted on page 10, line 13, being exactly the language of the amendment deleted from its former position.
Amendment No. 14, is on page 11, line 20: after the word "adjusted" insert "or to be adjusted." There is no disagreement with that.
Amendment No. 16, is on page 11. line 24: add at the end of clause 19 the following:
except in cases where the debtor has refused to agree to the adjustment of the mortgage or where any other person whose consenting to the adjustment is necessary has refused to consent.
This covers a point which was discussed in our own House of Commons banking and commerce committee, and I have no objection to the amendment.
These are the particulars, Mr. Speaker, of the amendments with which we might agree, and I accordingly move the resolution as read.
Mr. DANIEL McIVOR (Fort William):
Mr. Speaker, it may be that fools rush in where angels fear to tread, but in my opinion it is an outrage that for another year those who are loaded down with the burden of heavy interest charges must keep on paying them. I am not giving abject support to anyone, but I would ask who is governing this country- sixteen members in the other chamber or the elected representatives in this House of Commons? I cannot keep quiet, because this legislation is long overdue; and I am going to ask the acting Prime Minister (Mr. Lapointe) if it is not possible for us to pass this legislation in some other way so that it can immediately become the law of the country.
Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):
I would suggest that my hon. friend reserve his remarks until it is apparent that the senate has refused to accept the views of the house.
Hon. C. H. CAHAN (St. Lawrence-St. George):
Mr. Speaker, I do not intend to enter upon a rediscussion of the merits or demerits of this bill; but speaking for myself personally, I am pleased that the decision taken by the senate reaffirms the principle of parliament assisting, even by large grants of public funds, our great agricultural industry throughout the length and breadth of this country. The relief of the distressed condition of the farming industry, especially in the three provinces of the middle west, is a matter which has been the subject of frequent discussion and one with respect to which all parties in this house have hitherto agreed, except when my hon. friends opposite were in opposition.
But with regard to urban mortgages I have heard no distinct demand from any part of Canada that this measure should be enacted to relieve these mortgagors of home urban property who have ability to pay.
Why not?
Mr. CAHAN:
Simply because it is not the duty or the obligation or the responsibility of this house to appropriate public funds for the relief of private debtors except in a case of extreme emergency, as I have stated on other occasions in this chamber when I have spoken with reference to this measure.
I regret that the government have taken the position which they now take. I think it would have been far better to have allowed these amendments to be adopted here in order that for a year at least this measure of relief may be given to owners of farm property, especially those who reside in the three provinces of the middle west, and who, speaking generally, it is stated-and I accept the state-
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ment because I have not information to the contrary-are unable to pay the principal or the interest accruing from year to year upon mortgages of their farm properties on account of the severe disasters which have overtaken those provinces, and which are an affliction of providence, something similar to a fire in a great urban centre wiping out valuable urban property. Drought, grasshoppers and other difficulties have afflicted that western country for a period of nearly ten years, and I for one am prepared to vote a measure of relief even though it requires a large appropriation of public funds to assist farmers who are unable to meet their mortgage obligations.
The Minister of Finance (Mr. Dunning) stated before the banking and commerce committee that in his opinion the obligation placed upon the government by the assumption of the obligations of mortgagors under this bill would amount to approximately 845,000,000. I think that was a very modest estimate indeed.
Mr. DUNNING:
I put it as an outside figure.
Mr. CAHAN:
I know the minister did, but nevertheless I think that was a modest estimate which will not be realized.
Mr. McNIVEN:
Over a period of twenty years.
Mr. CAHAN:
But the obligation is undertaken at once and becomes an obligation of the federal treasury, just as any other bond or debenture issued by the government of Canada becomes an obligation of the federal treasury.
With regard to urban properties the hon. gentleman states that the loss will be very small indeed, so that the loss which we shall undertake in respect of farm properties, which are located chiefly in the middle west, must be an obligation of approximately 835,000,000 or $40,000,000.
Mr. DUNNING:
Farm properties in all
Canada.
Mr. CAHAN:
Farm properties in all
Canada are not in the same position as the farm properties of the west, and though providence and nature have not so afflicted and embarrassed the farmers of the eastern provinces as they have those of the west, I am prepared therefore to support the senate amendment giving relief now to mortgagors of farm properties. But I do not think there is a like demand from urban property owners, nor is there, in my opinion, any valid reason for the adoption of this measure immediately with regard to urban properties. Let us try out the bill with regard to farm properties and then we shall have ample opportunity, in
the course of a year or more, to ascertain the real facts so far as urban properties are concerned, because those facts have not been placed before us. And even the relief which is given to urban properties will not assist to any great extent the mortgagors of urban properties in the great city of Montreal and in the province of Quebec, where the great body of mortgages are held by individuals and by estates which do not come within the purview of this bill.
Very little relief is given to them by this bill, and if the bill passes it will naturally arouse antagonism and dissatisfaction owing to the fact that a small number of mortgagors in the eastern provinces will receive the benefit of this appropriation of public funds while the great body of them will get no relief at all. The great body of them, I assert, and I speak from what I know, will receive no relief at all. I regret, therefore, that the minister has taken the attitude he has. As a matter of fact, in all the provinces but one there will be little embarrassment to the mortgagors of urban property during the next twelve months. The moratorium in the province of Quebec is still in force. There is a great deal of dissatisfaction with the provisions of this bill with respect to urban property, and, personally, I shall be glad to see those provisions dropped for the present session of parliament.
Mr. M. J. COLDWELL (Rosetown-Biggar):
On behalf of the group with which I am associated I desire to state that we are supporting the motion Of the government in refusing to accept the amendments referred to. We feel, particularly those of us who come from western Canada, that the measure before us is not sufficiently comprehensive to meet the requirements of the people who live in the middle west; nevertheless we welcome it as a step in the right direction.
As far as urban mortgages are concerned, again speaking of the urban centres in the middle west, I should say that the mortgagors in that area, dependent as they are upon the great agricultural industry, need relief from their obligations, as do those who occupy the agricultural region surrounding them, and consequently we believe that this measure, not as far-reaching as we should like to see it, ought nevertheless to be supported by this house and an attempt made to give the masses of the people who require it some relief during the coming year.
Before resuming my seat I would simply say this to the government. Had the party which is now in power carried out its promises made years ago to reform the senate, the prob-
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ability is that we should have had machinery to enable us to meet a situation of this sort to a much greater extent than we can at the present time. I trust that the upper chamber will consider the amendments made and return to this house a measure which will be acceptable to us and which will give some hope to thousands of people who are looking for relief under conditions which are not of their own making.
Mr. J. H. BLACKMORE (Lethbridge):
Our group proposes to support the motion of the government to return this bill to the senate.
Right Hon. ERNEST LAPOINTE (Minister of Justice):
In reply to the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell), may I say that reform of the senate cannot be achieved without an amendment to the British North America Act. I know it is disagreeable to refer to that question, but that is the situation.
Mr. COLDWELL:
You might try.
Mr. LAPOINTE (Quebec East):
However, I share the hope of the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar.
Mr. R. W. GRAY (Lambton West):
Surely we are not going to close the debate without a word from the acting leader of the opposition, the hon. member for Kootenay East (Mr. Stevens), who is acting in the absence of his leader, and from the hon. member for Leeds (Mr. Stewart), who has just gone out.