Mr. PERLEY:
They have discovered that the flavour of apples grown there is much better than that of those grown in the Okanagan valley.
Mr. HANSELL:
I have been looking at pages 65 and 66 of the estimates for some information on this item but do not find what I am after. When driving along the roads out west I have noticed farms with signs on the fences indicating that they are experimental stations of some kind. On making inquiry I have not been able to satisfy myself entirely as to what these places are. I know they are not government-owned stations because in some instances I knew the man who owned the farm. But just how he operates it, and what use it is to the Department of Agriculture or to the country, I have not been able to learn. Would the minister tell us about these stations?
Mr. GARDINER:
There are illustration stations across Canada, 171 of them all told at present. These stations are set up on a similar basis in the different parts of Canada. A certain part of a farm is rented; the farmer does the work; the seed is supplied by the government; it is seeded under direction of the experimental farms, and records are kept as to the results. The farmer has all the product from the plot, but the neighbours in the vicinity have the advantage of seeing the experiments carried on and the results.
Mr. HANSELL:
The strange thing I found as I made inquiry about these stations is that the people living in the communities do not seem to know much about them. I have heard such remarks as this-although I feel that the remark is not true-" Well, it may be a good Liberal station ", the inference being that there may be patronage of some sort. I say I do not believe that is true, because I know one or two of these stations in or near my own constituency that are operated by men who I am certain are not Liberals. As a matter of fact, one of them is-
Be careful.
Mr. HANSELL:
I hope the gentleman to whom I refer will not lose his job now.
You may lose his support.
Mr. HANSELL:
No, the gentleman to whom I have reference is a very strong supporter of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation party. What remuneration is paid the men who work these plots of land?
Mr. GARDINER:
There is no wage at all. They are paid SI an acre and, as I said before, they get the results of their labour on that acre just as they do in connection with any other acre of the farm.
With regard to the other point, as to whether the neighbours are made acquainted with what is going on, there is at least one field day held on each of these plots, and on many of them there are two field days. The average attendance at these field days runs from one hundred to five hundred, so quite a number of people do take advantage of the fact that these stations are there. With regard to the political stripe of the people who operate them, I think there are some good farmers who are not Liberals.
Mr. HANSELL:
How far are the stations
apart, or how are certain locations chosen?
Mr. GARDINER:
They are about fifty to seventy-five miles apart, as a rule, in certain areas; but with only 171 of them scattered
Supply-Agriculture-Farms
over Canada it would not be possible to have them every seventy-five or even one hundred miles.
Mr. TUCKER:
I should like to make a
few remarks with regard to something that is regarded as almost a tragedy in the constituency I have the honour to represent in this house, something which is regarded as quite a setback to agriculture in [DOT] a large part of northern Saskatchewan. I am informed that it is proposed to close the long established experimental station at Rosthern. This station was opened in 1909 by the government of Sir Wilfrid Laurier. It is situated in the centre of one of the finest farming districts in Saskatchewan. Doctor Seagar Wheeler lives within about five miles of that station, and it will be remembered that Doctor Wheeler was three times wheat king of the world, something never accomplished by any other person. As a matter of fact, since that station has been in operation, it has had a tremendous influence in the district which it serves, which includes not only the constituency of Rosthern but also North Battleford, The Battle-fords and the territory tributary to Saskatoon, together with a great part of the constituency of Prince Albert, which is represented in this house by the Prime Minister This district is settled to a large extent by people from continental Europe, and the service performed by that station in teaching these people the best methods of Canadian farming can never be measured by officials here in Ottawa.
I am told that certain experiments which have been carried on in the past have been brought to a conclusion, and that therefore there is no further reason for keeping open that station. I think everyone in this committee will agree that where experimental stations fall down is in not getting the benefit of their experiments across to the people, rather than in the experiments that are carried on. It would be better to get half the information obtained across to the people at large than to carry on experiments twice as important and get very little across to the people.
So, Mr. Chairman, when you have a long established experimental station in the middle of a district which needs and uses the advice and assistance of the officials of that station, it seems to me a retrograde and terrible step for any government to close that station just for the sake of saving $10,000 or less. The station has been in existence for thirty-one years, and each year more and more people come to it to get advice, particularly as to the best methods of improving their live stock. I live within a mile of the Rosthern station, and each year I have seen more and more people going there to get advice and 95826-73
assistance with regard to improving their farming methods. In that district there has been a tendency to change from grain farming to mixed farming, and the officials have given most valuable advice to the farmers with regard to that trend. For instance, recently a brooder house was set up to show how, at small expense, pigs could be farrowed in the height of winter without risk, in order that they might be marketed to greater advantage. I venture to say that since that building has been established, at least a thousand farmers have visited and examined it, and who can say in dollars and cents what value that has been to the whole district?
I look at the estimates and find an item of some $598,000 for the central experimental farm at Ottawa. When I compare that sum with the small amount that would keep the Rosthern station open; when I consider that almost as many real farmers visit the Rosthern station as probably visit the Ottawa experimental farm, I cannot keep silent in this committee. We have a deputy minister in another department which I will not mention now, drawing $10,000 a year and doing no work to speak of at all. When I think of that and realize that in order to save this amount of money we are closing a station serving hundreds of farmers in a large section of a great province such as Saskatchewan, a station that gives work to perhaps thirty people who need it badly, looking after the shrubs, gardens and so on, people who make perhaps $200 during the summer by hard work; when I see them about to be thrown out of work and remember a deputy minister in one of our government departments as already indicated, getting the salary I mentioned, I cannot keep silent in this committee. I must rise and say that I do not approve any such policy. That station has been teaching good Canadian farming methods to hundreds of farmers, who have come from Prince Albert, from North Battleford, from Melfort and from over a hundred miles around, in order to get the benefit of the advice of the officials stationed there. Year after year they receive the advantage of the experiments carried on at that station; it is doing better and better work in that way all the time, and I am informed that on a bare carrying basis, taking into account the revenue obtained, that station probably could be operated for less than $10,000 a year. ,
Then there is the question of foundation live stock. There has been built up on that farm probably one of the finest herds of Holstein cattle in Canada. There has been built up also a fine herd of Yorkshire hogs. I have seen people come there from all over
Supply-Agriculture-Farms
northern Saskatchewan to buy animals as foundation live stock for their herds. Is anyone going to say that the maintenance of a herd which makes available the best foundation live stock that can be procured in Saskatchewan is not worth $10,000? The men who will be thrown out of work are older men with families. They could not make a better contribution to the winning of this war than by assisting our farmers in producing the very best live stock and learning the best farming methods. I heard the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ralston) make his budget speech. Our effort should be to place our economic machinery, including our people, to the best possible use. Money should not be the determining factor. Are we increasing the efficiency of the people of western Canada by closing a station which has given leadership and provided advice and instruction to a whole section of Saskatchewan? Are we helping to strengthen Canada by closing that station? Those hon. members who have visited the prairie west know something of the homes which have been established there. The tendency has been to tell the people that because they are going to bring up their families in that part of the country, because their children will first come in contact with the world there, they should try to improve their home conditions and make them more congenial. There has been a real campaign to urge people to plant trees, particularly fruit trees to provide a certain amount of fruit for their families and make real homes for themselves. At times there has been a tendency to scoff at what can be done in connection with the growing of fruit in Saskatchewan. Just a year ago I visited the farm of Doctor Seager Wheeler where there are fifty acres under fruit. There is a splendid fruit orchard at that experimental station. I have seen literally tons of fine plums, crabapples and cherries which could not be disposed of in those orchards. People go to that experimental station and they are told what fruit trees will be suitable to their locality. There is a horticultural branch of the experimental station at Morden, but I am told that things can be grown there which cannot be grown in any other part of western Canada. I am told also that anything that will grow at Rosthern will grow in almost every part of the west. There is nothing more discouraging to people who may not have much in the way of funds than to spend money on fruit trees and have them die the first winter. They soon give up the idea of trying to go into fruit. Different trees are tested at the Rosthern station and information is available as to what trees are suitable to the different locali- ties. People obtain this information and then go home and establish orchards. To-day we see farm after farm with nice orchards, all of which tends to make these people feel more at home in the place where they may have to spend the rest of their lives. Is any official at Ottawa going to tell me that a work which helps to make real homes for hundreds of people in western Canada is not worth $10,000? I hope the committee will pardon me for speaking perhaps too feelingly in the matter, but I cannot help doing so when I think that some official in the Department of Agriculture is advising that this wonderful work for our people should be discontinued in order to save $10,000 or perhaps even $14,000 or $15,000. Any hon. member who had at heart the interest of his constituents would not fail to raise his voice with some feeling. Year after year field days are held at that experimental station and these are attended by hundreds of people. The minister of agriculture for Saskatchewan, one of the outstanding agriculturists in this dominion, attended and gave a fine and instructive address at the last one. This is the only place in that district where an affair of this kind can so advantageously be held. Hundreds of people have benefited by visiting that farm. They come from as far away as 150 miles and obtain the very best ideas for improving their live stock and receive the latest information as to what fruit trees will be suitable to their farms. Not only do the people in the immediate neighbourhood appreciate the work being done on that farm; it is appreciated by people all through northern Saskatchewan. I have a letter here from the Prince Albert board of trade, a city which is represented in this house by the Prime Minister. I do not want to weary the committee, but I want to do everything in my power to plead with this government not to make the mistake which I think they will be making if they close that farm. This letter is dated June 5, 1940. Hon. members will note it is from the Prince Albert board of trade, not the Rosthern board of trade. It reads in part: In our opinion it would be a tremendous mistake, as the present staff enjoys the confidence of all the people in this part of the province and they are doing a most valuable work. While the difference between the cost of operation and the revenues received does not involve a very large amount of money, in the alternative, but we very much prefer the first suggestion, it could be carried on in a modified form during the war and then put back on its present status. We feel it would be preferable to shut down another station not as highly developed and retain Rosthern. Supply-Agriculture-Farms We have asked Mr. King to make the strongest representations possible on our behalf. I do not think I am breaking any confidences by reading that last paragraph. That is the attitude of the Prince Albert board of trade. I should like to read a telegram, dated June 14, which I received from the same organization. It reads: Understand definite word has been received to close Rosthern experimental station. People here anxious to have same retained if at all possible. Could you give us any lead which would assist to bring this about. Wire reply. I come now to Saskatoon, which is to the south of Rosthern. This constituency was formerly represented in the house by the late Doctor Young. I shall read just a paragraph from a letter received from the Saskatoon board of trade, under date of June 5, 1940, as follows: The Saskatoon board is well acquainted with the many strenuous duties the government must undertake in these days of conflict, but we feel that if it is at all possible, the services of this station should be maintained for the province of Saskatchewan. The station has been of real service to agricultural interests of the whole province, particularly the northern section. We assure you the Saskatoon board of trade will support any move which will keep this experimental station in operation. I have another letter here from a member of the legislature for Prince Albert city. He says: I wish to point out that this is one of the oldest experimental stations in the province of Saskatchewan and in years gone by has given most valuable service to the agricultural districts in this part of the province and if it is discontinued at this time the loss from an agricultural point of view will be serious. The dominion government has a large investment there at the present time which has been built up over a great number of years and to allow that investment to simply disappear at the present time will undoubtedly mean a setback to agricultural educational activities in this part of the province, and in view of the serious times which agriculture has had to contend with during the last decade it seems to me absolutely imperative that this station should be kept in operation even if only on a restricted basis in view of present difficulties in financing Canada's war-time economy. I have letters here from the Prince Albert Horticultural society commending the splendid work which that farm is doing in horticulture. This is not from the Rosthern district but from the Prince Albert district-sixty miles away. Is it not likely that the people out there would know more about the good effect of the work done than some officials at Ottawa? I have a letter from the Prince Albert Agricultural society pointing out the good work that has been done at Rosthern in providing foundation live stock to all parts 95826-73J of northern Saskatchewan. I shall not weary the committee by reading it because I appreciate vey much the sympathy which has already been extended in giving me time to read as much as I have done. I should like, however, to read a sentence or two from a letter from a member of the legislature from Saskatoon city. He says: However, I believe it would be a very serious move for the government to make unless it is an absolute necessity. I know you will do your utmost to do whatever is in the best interests of Canada and, in my opinion, the Rosthern experimental farm should be kept open. I am simply writing you to tell you that you have my full support. I have letters and resolutions from pool organizations and other organizations within a radius of practically one hundred miles of the Rosthern experimental station, urging me and begging me to do something to see to it that this facility which has been given to our hard-pressed farmers of western Canada is not withdrawn-a station that was established there for the service of thousands of our farmers by our late great leader Sir Wilfrid Laurier. If it is so necessary to save money, they suggest that the Rosthern station be put on a subsistence basis, because the income is quite substantial, and that it be carried on upon that basis until after the war. There is an investment there of over $119,000, and I understand it is proposed, Mr. Chairman, to sell that farm and auction off the stock that is on it. Some of the cattle there are of such a high quality that if they get into the hands of people who are not fully qualified to look after them and make the best use of them for breeding purposes, they will be of very little use to the community as a whole. At the station they are used to provide foundation live stock to supply that whole area to the best advantage. Here we have an investment of $119,000 which it is proposed to wipe out, to do away with all the advantages which that farm gives to the people of northern Saskatchewan, when it is suggested by people in whom I can have confidence that, if it is absolutely necessary, by cutting down on expenditures that are not absolutely essential, the farm could be carried on at a net expenditure of between $5,000 and $10,000. When I see how much money is voted to beautify the city of Ottawa, hundreds of thousands of dollars, and read the other items in the estimates, and then see that in order to save money it is proposed to wipe out the one thing of real value to our farmers, that has been given to the district which I have the honour to represent, on the say-so of some people in Ottawa that that farm is no longer serving a useful purpose, I must rise in my Supply-Agriculture-Farms
place in this house and urge and beg the Minister of Agriculture to reconsider the closing of that farm.
Mr. NICHOLSON:
I notice in the minister's report on the work of the experimental farm at Melfort, Saskatchewan, mention is made of considerable experimental work done in connection with the sugar beet industry. Can the minister tell us what success there has been in that particular field, where the seed is procured, and whether we are developing in Saskatchewan sugar beets suitable for making refined sugar?
Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):
Before the minister answers that question, surely he will have something to say to the hon. member for Rosthern (Mr. Tucker) who has just spoken. I have no information at all with regard to the merits of closing that farm, but I have a good deal of sympathy for the case -which the hon. member has made. In the course of his remarks he made some serious reflections upon the deputy minister of agriculture and some of the higher officials of the department, and it seems to me-and I offer this with the utmost good-will-that the minister just cannot sit silent.
Mr. GARDINER:
I had no intention of
doing so. There may be five other speeches to make after I have the floor.
Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):
The minister will excuse me. I apologize for being a little premature. I thought he was not going to reply. Certainly we cannot let this item pass without the minister making some defence of his own officials who cannot be here to speak for themselves.