Mr. SENN:

For fibre or seed?

Mr. GARDINER:

For fibre and for seed as well. The experiments in connection with the landrace hogs have been completed, and it

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has Deen proven to the satisfaction of the department that this animal would not improve our position in Canada.

Mr. HATFIELD:

How many new varieties of potatoes have resulted from the experiments carried on at the farm at Fredericton?

Mr. GARDINER:

I understand that no new varieties have been released from the Fredericton farm, but experimental work is going on.

Mr. HATFIELD:

For how many years have experiments been carried on, and how many varieties have been experimented with?

Mr. GARDINER:

For about four years on a large scale, and about eight years on less important experimental work.

Mr. HATFIELD:

How many varieties have been experimented with?

Mr. GARDINER:

I am informed that hundreds of varieties have been gathered from all over the world and tested on that farm. But as I said a few moments ago, no variety has been released as being more valuable to the potato growers than those already grown.

Mr. HATFIELD:

The great trouble with the potato growers in New Brunswick and Prince Edward Island is that they have to go to Maine to obtain new varieties. The experimental station there has released five or six new varieties.

Mr. GARDINER:

I understand that they have developed some 56,000 seedlings of different varieties of potatoes. These are being experimented with and developed, but none have been released.

Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):

I should like to inquire with regard to illustration stations in connection with the fox farming industry, particularly those in New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island and Nova Scotia. There is a decrease of some $8,300 in the item under discussion, but I am informed that the decrease in the services rendered to this industry in the three maritime provinces is really more than that. How many illustration stations in the three maritime provinces have been closed? How many stations were there in Ontario, and how many have been closed? Next, how many stations were operating in Quebec, and how many have been closed? In that regard, I am thinking particularly of the lake St. John area where a considerable industry has grown up. What is the total decrease in the cost of operating illustration stations in the maritime provinces, and what is the amount of the decrease in Ontario and Quebec?

In passing, I may say that the silver fox industry is indebted to the government for their energy in seeing that the market for

these furs in the United States has been enlarged. The United States government has been induced to increase the quota of silver fox furs which may be imported into that country. To my mind this action saved this industry which was fast getting into serious difficulties because of the loss of export markets in Paris and London due to the war and the fact that the United Kingdom is no longer importing such luxuries. I think the minister knows a good deal about this subject, and perhaps he will be kind enough to make a frank statement as to the position of the silver fox industry in Canada. This decrease of $8,300 should be much more when we take into consideration the fact that the department in their wisdom have found it necessary to close illustration stations, particularly in the maritime provinces.

Mr. GARDINER:

The illustration stations related to the fox industry are all in the maritime provinces. There are two in Prince Edward Island: one at Montague and one at O'Leary Station. There are two in Nova Scotia: one at Bridgetown and one at

Antigonish.

Mr. HARRIS (Danforth):

Are they closed?

Mr. GARDINER:

No; they are operating.

There are three in New Brunswick: one at Salisbury, one at Chatham and one at Truro. The Truro station has been closed because an air-field has been opened in the vicinity, and it was not found possible to continue to operate a fox experimental station at that point. In connection with the importation of furs into the United States, difficulty was experienced when the war broke out. An arrangement was made with the United States whereby-I am speaking from memory-we were permitted to export about 58,000 pelts to that country, and by arrangement that was increased by about one-third later on, which permitted of the marketing of the greater part of last year's crop to advantage in the United States. If it had not been for the fact that it was necessary this year to reduce expenditures in the department generally, it was the intention of the department to open stations in Quebec and Ontario, and later on to have extended the same activities to the west, where there is a considerable production of fox furs.

As to the cost, the total cost in connection with fur activities is about $8,000 per station. Last year it was about $1,000 more than this year, the reason being largely that buildings were required last year which were not required this year.

Mr. McIVOR:

I do not know as much about farming as some of those who have spoken, but I was brought up under those who knew and practised the rotation of crops.

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There are some things however, which I know well. I know that the government should be commended for changing its policy from big experimental stations to smaller experimental sub-stations. In order to be sure of what was going on in my own constituency, I visited our sub-station last Saturday, and I found that the young man in charge of it was away ahead of any farmer in the district in having his ground ready and a lot of his crop in. I have been told that there are three types of farmer: the intensive farmer, the extensive farmer, and the pretensive farmer, and the purpose of the experimental substation is to eliminate the third class.

I am very glad that our sub-station has been left there, and it should be left there because of the good it does and the effect it has on the young farmers of the community. They are experimenting in fruits and vegetables, in seed and grain and grasses at the substation. I know that you cannot perhaps make much of an impression on the older farmers, who think perhaps they could teach even the specialists something, but the young farmer is quite willing to learn and in this way our sub-station has been making a splendid contribution to the farm life of our community. I hope, therefore, it will be left there for years to come.

Mr. GRAYDON:

Reference was made a moment ago by the hon. member for Qu'Appelle (Mr. Perley) to an interesting and instructive visit that I paid with him to the Indian Head district last summer. I should like to endorse what he has said with regard to the splendid work which is being done both at the Indian Head experimental farm1 and at the forestry station. To one who comes from and has lived all his life in eastern Canada, the type of growth to be found at the forestry station at Indian Head was bound to cause amazement in that the soil could produce such fine types of trees and horticultural products as it actually does.

I was particularly interested also in going north of Indian Head to that part of the country where the chocolate loam, as it is called in that district, is to be found at its very best, and going a little further into the northern part of Saskatchewan I was interested in the fruit and vegetable experiments I found being carried on at Henribourg by a man named Mr. Johns. He has an excellent orchard and market garden located some twenty miles north of Prince Albert, almost in the hinterland of the prairie provinces, and coming as I did from a fruit and vegetable district in Ontario, it was quite a surprise and a great encouragement to me to see the types of fruit and vegetables that he was growing successfully there.

I particularly wanted to draw the minister's attention to this point. In the area north of Tisdale and up toward Nipawin and White Pox, where I spent considerable time on that visit, extensive experiments, perhaps more than experiments because the work is on a commercial basis now, have been carried on in the growing of alfalfa. We in the county of Peel have had some experience in the past in the growing of seed for that particular kind of forage crop, and I was wondering whether the minister could indicate whether any experiments have been carried on in recent years in connection with the growing of alfalfa. The experience of so many of our farmers, including our experience on our own farm some years ago, was that, while for a number of years there would be excellent seed, over a considerable period of time there would be great difficulty in getting any abundant kind of yield at all, and no one seemed to know whether that was owing to the climate, or the variety of seed used, or whether the soil had become impoverished by a succession of crops. I do not think that during the sessions I have been here the question has come up of what experiments have been carried on with regard to alfalfa. While in the west in the area around White Pox and Nipawin they were having considerable success in growing

alfalfa, could the minister inform the committee whether there is any assurance that the same misfortune will not befall the growers in that territory as has befallen the alfalfa growers from time to time in some parts of Ontario?

Mr. GARDINER:

There is a certain

section in the northeastern corner of Saskatchewan, in the White Fox country and that vicinity, where alfalfa seed has been grown in considerable quantities. It is shipped out of that area, much of it going to the United States. They have cooperative organizations for handling the seed, and they have been shipping it out for the last two or three years. I understand that they did have some difficulty with the seed this year. Whether it was because the ground has been overly cropped, or what the real cause of the difficulty was, has not been established. It may be just some weather condition which prevailed this year. Practically all the experimental work with alfalfa that is being carried on in the west is being carried on at Saskatoon. This department operates the forage crop production at the Saskatchewan university farm and carries on experiments there in relation to alfalfa.

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I am quite sure that the hon. member for Peel will know of some of the difficulties which have been experienced with alfalfa in his own area. I am informed by the officials of the department that there are many things that have yet to be discovered with regard to the growing of alfalfa. It seems that there are difficulties which develop in relation to the soil. Probably there is taken out of the soil some food that is necessary to the plant, or some peculiar weather conditions may prevail from time to time which affect the production of alfalfa both as a forage crop and for seed purposes. Alfalfa has not been grown sufficiently long in that area for us to have established any definite principles in connection with any of the difficulties that are being experienced. This year, when there is quite an extensive use of grass seeds and probably will be a more extensive use towards the fall of the year as a result of the policy being followed, it is hoped that there will be a greater production of seed than there was a year ago.

Mr. GRAYDON:

Do they use the same

type of seed in the White Fox area as here? Is it Grimm's or another Ontario variety which they are using?

Mr. GARDINER:

The variety is a little

different from what is used in the east. They are growing the Ladak variety there.

Mr. WRIGHT:

Has the department given consideration to the establishment of an experimental farm in that area to experiment more particularly with alfalfa? I hope that consideration will be given to establishing a station there, because a large number of settlers are entirely dependent upon alfalfa for their cash crop, and during the last two years the seed has failed in that area. This is thought to be largely due to weather conditions, but there may be other conditions which are not fully understood at the present time, and the establishment of an experimental farm or experimental plot in that area for the development of alfalfa would be helpful.