Mr. SPEAKER:

The hon. member would move the adjournment of the house to discuss a matter of urgent public importance, to wit, the Japanese question in British Columbia. I would point out that an hon. member desiring to make such a motion rises in his place, asks leave to move the adjournment of the house for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, and states the nature of the matter. If I consider it in order and of sufficient public importance I ask if the hon. member has the leave of the house. The hon. member has handed me a written statement. It is a matter which I think is of sufficient public importance; therefore I would ask: Has the hon. member the leave of the house to present the motion he is now making?

And leave being granted:

Mr. O'NEILL: Several days ago, Mr. Speaker, I rose in the house to ask a question with respect to the Japanese situation. At that time I was ruled out of order, which ruling I accepted as gracefully as possible; for I believe I was out of order on that occasion, though I had submitted the questions to the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell), and the minister was quite prepared to answer them. I did not receive the written answers to those questions until to-day, and I find them very unsatisfactory.

I might direct the attention of hon. members to the fact that the people of British Columbia are extremely disturbed about the way the Japanese question is being handled, and when I say extremely disturbed I mean just that. I should like to quote from an editorial which appeared recently in the Kamloops newspaper, which, by the way, though not holding the same political beliefs as the government, is quite a friendly paper. It carried a long editorial with respect to the Japanese question, which concluded with these words:

Are Canada and Japan at war? We thought so in British Columbia, but Ottawa is a long way away. What kind of explosion in British Columbia is it going to take so that it may be heard all that distance?

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That is the feeling of the people there. I receive communications all the time to the effect that the Japanese camps in northern British Columbia are not properly guarded. They say, for instance, that there is only one gun in a tent in which there are several guards. For that gun there are twelve rounds of ammunition, so that even if you got a Jap with each round of that ammunition there would still be plenty of them left to outnumber the guards in the camps. Things like this do not tend to allay the anxiety of the people, especially since the landing of the Japanese on the Aleutian islands.

Recently when the 2nd battalion of the Rocky Mountain Rangers were on parade in Kamloops and were being instructed by their officer, Japanese were sitting there, listening to the instructions being given by the officer to the men in his battalion. I say to the house that that is not a proper condition to exist. The Japanese in those camps in the northern section of British Columbia are becoming more arrogant every day. As a matter of fact one cannot fire those fellows as he would a man in an ordinary camp who refused to do something he was told to do. In an ordinary road construction camp the foreman may fire a man, but he cannot do that in a Japanese camp. The Japanese have now got to the point where they say they will not do something, and the foreman cannot force them to do it. Then they insist upon removal of the foreman, and in one instance, the foreman was removed.

We want a man at the head of the security commission in British Columbia of the type of the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell), who, speaking the other day in the house, said, "If I had my way about it, and a man refused to do what he was told, I would intern him." Some 300 of them are now interned at Petawawa. That is the kind of man we need in British Columbia to handle the Japanese situation-someone who is prepared to do what he thinks the situation demands.

I am told, on what I consider to be most reliable authority, that Japanese are now on strike in the North Thompson area. They are on a sit-down strike. That is not a proper condition to have in this country. How long would you and I last if we were in Japan, and carried on like that? How much longer are we going to pussyfoot with those yellow devils in the west? That is what I would like to know.

Hon. GROTE STIRLING (Yale):

I think it is a good thing the hon. member for Kamloops (Mr. O'Neill) has raised this question, if only for the purpose of ventilating it. Hon. members will recall that on several

[Mr. O'Neill.3

occasions since Japan entered the war I have discussed the Japanese situation in the house. I have asked questions, and I have warned the government, particularly in the earlier days of this movement of Japanese, that they were running the greatest risk of trouble if they looked upon the whole area of British Columbia east of the protected area as a district into which the Japanese might percolate at will. It is true that those warnings gradually had some effect. But the people I represent, particularly those in the Okanagan and in the valleys contiguous thereto, are still looking with a considerable amount of apprer hension to what may develop at any time because of the truculence of some of the Japanese who are being allowed to reside for a time in those areas.

Two or three hundred of them have been placed in camps along the side of the Hope-Princeton road. When they first took up their residence in those camps the people of the locality, going out to see what they were doing and whether they were accomplishing anything, were shocked to find one guard lying on the side of the road-within touch of his rifle, true, but the rifle not being in his hands. So far as I am aware that guard was the only one at the camp. At that time work was supposed to be under way for the purpose of completing the road. There was no road machinery, and the Japanese were there with long-handled shovels, taking a shovelful of dirt, walking several yards with it and throwing it over the edge. I do not emphasize that point particularly because there are difficulties in connection with providing road machinery. From the answer to the question I asked the Minister of Labour the other day I presume the government has in hand the acquiring of all available road machinery in these difficult days. But several times over, during the earlier part of this difficulty, I was told by ministers that the interior of British Columbia must bear its share of this trouble. The inhabitants of the interior fully realize that; but what the government has apparently been unable to realize is that through that area, the fruitgrowing section of British Columbia, there has been for years past a collection of Japanese. These were people of Japanese origin, some of whom were born in this country and some who were not. When the trouble broke out I believe a certain number of them were removed for internment. That matter however has been treated secretly, and I cannot assert it with confidence. I believe there were some 750 Japanese in that interior part with which I am connected. The inhabitants living up there did not see any reason why the Japanese should be allowed to leave the

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protected area and wander in by day, by night, by automobile, by bus and by train, and take up residence within that area. That they have done so tnere is no doubt whatsoever, but what their numbers are is hard to come by.

When I was home at Easter I made all possible inquiries to endeavour to ascertain how many had so come in. I found it was quite impossible to do so, because of course the Japanese are not desirous of making known how many came in. But there are so very many more Japanese faces seen on the streets of those towns and villages, and seen on the roads and the farms, that it is quite obvious that a very considerable influx took place at that time.

The desire of the government has been to deal as best it can with the 24,000 or 25,000 Japanese which it was their purpose to remove from the protected area. As no other part of Canada in those earlier days showed any great desire to receive these Japanese residents, the people I represent could not see that when they already had placed about 750 of these people they should have others numbering four figures-and if this had not been stopped it might have been five figures-forced upon them. Because to the oriental mind the Okanagan valley and the industry carried on therein is a desirable haven.

The difficulty in that connection is now in the hands of the Minister of Justice (Mr. St. Laurent), and to that point I shall allude for a moment. For many years past it has been the custom for a farmer growing truck or vegetable crops to enter into what is known as a crop share agreement with those who are ready to do the labour. Those labourers have to a great extent in past years been Hindus, Chinese, and Japanese. No difficulty was experienced with respect to the crop share agreement between a white farmer and a Japanese who in past years had entered into such an agreement. But when these newcomers of Japanese origin showed their desire to enter into crop share agreements with the white farmers, it became evident that they could do so only if they received permits from the Minister of Justice under order in council 4657, I believe it was. When I had primed myself with certain information with regard to these crop share agreements I asked the Minister of Justice how many permits he had issued. His answer was "none". My information is that crop share agreements have been entered into by Japanese who were newcomers, contrary to the order in council, and in considerable numbers. At the moment the Minister of Justice, through the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, is making an investigation.

In the constituency of the hon. member who raised this question there have been alleged instances-I use that word because I have not definite proof-where intermediaries have acquired land which has subsequently been occupied, though it may not be owned at the present time, by Japanese who have come in from the protected area. If that be true, and it is being looked into, it is a definite infraction of the order in council that is being administered by the Minister of Justice.

These are things at which the people I represent look with a great deal of concern. At the back of their minds there is the thought that if these people are allowed to enter, to occupy, to lease and perhaps eventually to own land, there will be a repetition of what happened in the state of California in connection with foreign labour. The Italians came into their fruit valleys in an insidious manner, and now they own the valleys completely. There will be a repetition of what has occurred in another part of my constituency where the Doukhobors are located. They acquired a piece of land here and a piece there because of their habits they frightened white possessors of land away from the neighbourhood, and the areas are becoming more and more Doukhobor year by year. That is the fear at the back of the minds of the population of my riding. I think it is high time the matter was discussed in this house and that the government definitely recognized this real fear which exists.

Mr. THOMAS REID (New Westminister):

Mr. Speaker, in view of the introduction of this subject into the house this afternoon I consider it my duty to warn the government with regard to some aspects of the Japanese situation. My views regarding the Japanese have been well known for many years. In 1933 I warned the country and the government of that day that the Japanese had the best maps of our shores and harbours, but I was looked upon by some as being just a racial hatred monger, if I may use that word. Apparently there are many in this country who do not yet realize the exact situation. There should be no pussyfooting about this question of moving Japanese from the coast. The United States, I believe, moved over 1,10,000 Japanese from their coast in a few weeks. In my opinion it was a mistake to put this matter in Canada under the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell). We should have taken drastic action and put it in the hands of the military.

I know there are those who will say that repercussions will occur in Japan. I do not know how many realize it, but in Japan there are really two governing bodies, if one may use that expression. There is the emperor and his government, and then there are the

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naval and military. The military are on their own. Anything that may happen to Japanese in this country-and I would have them handled kindly-will not be taken note of by the military of Japan. As a matter of fact, knowing the Japanese as I do, I think we should warn the emperor now that he and he alone will be held responsible for any atrocities committed on our soldiers, our nurses and others. The emperor is the only one who has any authority over the Japanese, military or otherwise; in fact he is looked upon as a god.

The other day two Japanese were picked up on the streets of Vancouver while in possession of murderous weapons, and they are still there. My chief reason for speaking at this time is to warn the government as to the situation in the labour camps in the interior. Outside of flying, there are only three ways to get into British Columbia-the two single line railroads and the one highway. At night there are no guards whatsoever at these camps. You may say that there is a curfew law, but who is going to enforce it? I believe it is unsafe to leave these camps in charge of just a foreman. The government should inspect them now and see that sufficient guards are placed there in case anything should happen in the future, and so prevent possible sabotage

Some time ago there were those who laughed at the statement that attempts might be made to invade this continent. No one knows what is in the minds of the Japanese, or what may happen. If anything should happen, however, I am one of those who believe that some of the Japanese in British Columbia will be made aware of it in advance. There is not a great deal to prevent them from going out from the camps and destroying the railroads, thus cutting off communication with the province and preventing the sending in of men or ammunition to the Pacific coast, except by air.

This condition is too serious to leave as it is. I am not going to advocate the method adopted by Mexico, but that country certainly went about it in a very practical way. Mexico simply put up notices in the different areas on her coast to the effect that any Japanese found there after ten days would be shot, and in eight days none were to be found. There are still many Japanese on the streets of Vancouver, in the Fraser valley and at other places in British Columbia. The government should take a more serious view of the entire situation, especially with a view to preventing sabotage.

Mr. G. A. CRUICKSHANK (Fraser Valley):

Mr. Speaker, for once the British Columbia members do not seem to be working together.

I am sorry I had no idea that this matter was coming up, because having just returned from British Columbia I have enough information upstairs in my office to convince even this government that they should -take some action in connection with the Japanese. I wonder if Prime Minister Churchill has come over here to inquire if we know whether we are at war with Japan. When we from British Columbia brought up this matter some time ago we were scoffed at, even by members of the government. It was intimated that we did not know what we were talking about. Probably these gentlemen have changed their minds by now. General Stuart, one of our outstanding military men, has been sent out to the coast. We told you what would happen in the Aleutian islands, but it would appear we were not listened to attentively enough.

Last week I was driving along Hastings street in Vancouver and I stopped my car to go in to buy a package of cigarettes. When I came out a friend who was with me asked me why I did not get the cigarettes. I cannot say to you, sir, what I said to him, but I did tell him that some member of the so-called security commission must have had an interest in that building, because the store was still being operated by a Jap. They are to be seen every day on the streets of Vancouver. There were over 700 Japanese on Lulu island that day, which is in the immediate vicinity of the only two airports in Canada which are available to defend the Pacific coast.

There was another member from British Columbia with me on the train coming back. At Schreiber, Ontario, they picked up a carload of Japanese. If the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) was taking -a trip out west his car would be placed at the front of the train. About three weeks ago the Governor General had the same experience when travelling across Canada. A carload of Japs was picked up and placed at the rear of the train behind the observation coach. I am just mentioning this to show that something ought to be done to take care of these our most dastardly enemies. Do we realize or not that these people are of the origin of a country at war with us? There was a whole carload coming back to work in sugar beet production somewhere in Ontario. Their average age was twenty-two. We have been in the war with Japan since the seventh of December last, but just on Monday and Tuesday of this week these same Japs were permitted to take pictures all along the railroad, of any of our defences, and of anything being shipped as part of our war effort, and we watched them take those pictures. Do we realize that we are at war with Japan?

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We are dependent upon the security commission which we have in British Columbia to act as guard for us. Just to-day I got a letter by airmail in connection with the strikes there referred to by the hon. member for Kamloops (Mr. O'Neill). One lonely old temporary mounted policeman, over sixty years of age, armed with a rifle and ten shells, acted as guard when the Japs went on a two-and-a-half-day sit-down strike. They are openly defying us. I am told that the security commission has this matter in charge. We begged the national defence department to see that proper guards were put over these Japanese.

There is not a military man, so far as I am aware, and so far as the people of British Columbia are aware, taking any interest whatsoever in this situation in British Columbia. We have not a military man attached to the three-man security commission. We have a spruce maker. I do not like to admit it when I am wrong, but I commended the appointment of the gentleman who is chairman of that commission. He is an excellent Canadian, and a splendid business man, I presume, because he has acquired a good deal of this world's goods, but he knows no more about how to handle the Japanese or to remove them than he does about flying an aeroplane, and I regret to say that I commended his appointment. I am sure the government does not realize how serious conditions are in British Columbia or it would not permit them to exist. We have heard a great deal about unity in Canada, but unity does not consist of keeping only one province in unity. The situation in British Columbia is very serious, and as the hon. member for Kamloops said, we are not going to permit it to continue much longer.

The Ottawa Journal of Wednesday, June 17, says that the federal government is ready to bring Japanese from British Columbia to Ontario. It is very kind of Ontario to agree to accept them. The Ottawa Journal goes on to say that the minister has given a guarantee that on the cessation of the war these Japanese will be removed from Ontario. We people of British Columbia are not asking; we are demanding, where these Japanese are going to be removed to. I am not blaming Ontario or any other province for not wanting them, but I am warning this government that it will never put those Japanese back in British Columbia. The government might just as well face that. We are through asking and requesting. We are now demanding, and when a minister of the crown states that these Japanese will be removed from Ontario on the cessation.of the war we are entitled to know where they are to be removed to.

We have had to fight and fight even to get these Japanese moved out of the defence areas in British Columbia. Last Friday there were at least forty Japanese families living within eighteen miles of the main power plant on the Pacific coast. This so-called security commission' tells us that it is doing its best, that it has to provide a proper place to send these Japanese to, and then it puts them alongside the two trans-Canada highways mentioned by the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid). As another member and I were coming from British Columbia last week I saw these Japanese working right along the railroad-no, not working, leaning on the fence and watching us go by. Of course, they are not working. They know that to date they have had us bluffed. But there are not enough yellow men in the whole of Japan to bluff the people of British Columbia. If they can bluff this government, they cannot bluff us in that province. We are demanding action.

Mr. H. C. GREEN (Vancouver South):

Mr. Speaker, for many years members from British Columbia have been fighting an up-hill battle on this Japanese question. I realize that the members of the house at large know fairly well the picture at the present time. There is no doubt that the situation is extremely difficult, difficult for the government and difficult also for the people of British Columbia. It has become much more critical recently because the Japanese have made their first landing on north American territory, in the Aleutian islands. No one knows whether this means an attempt to invade the western coast of Canada and the United States, or whether it is merely a nuisance attack on these islands.

Just a week ago the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell) was good enough to give me- and I presume it was given to all the members from British Columbia-a statement of the situation at the present time, and it will help the house to get the complete picture if I give some of these figures. They show that at the beginning of this exodus from the protected coastal area in British Columbia there were 23,480 Japanese in that province, and that of these, to date only 4,362 have been moved outside that province; that is about one-sixth of the total. Of the 4,362, 2,053 have gone to Alberta, 920 to Manitoba, and 162 to Ontario-a total of 3,135-to work on sugar beet projects. Then 862 have gone to various parts of Canada under special permit. I presume that includes the Japanese who have gone to Premier Hepburn's farm and to other places to do domestic work, and so on.

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Incidentally it is hardly fair for the cities of eastern Canada to take the stand that they will not allow any Japanese to come within their boundaries, yet that stand has been taken by the cities of Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa and I do not know how many others. The councils of these cities have passed resolutions that they will not allow any Japanese whatsoever to enter their cities.

Then eighteen Japanese have gone to a mission school in Assiniboia, Saskatchewan, fifty to industrial projects at Nicholson, Ontario, and 297 have been sent to internment camps.

In addition, the Minister of Labour told us the other day that an additional 4,000 were to be sent to Indian schools, although I believe that even one of these schools is situated in British Columbia.

This statement also shows that last week, on, June 12, there were still in greater Vancouver just about half the number of Japanese who were in British Columbia when this movement started, the figure being 11,563.

Various plans are set out as to where some of these Japanese can be moved, but even when all those plans have been taken into consideration the statement shows that no plans whatever have been worked out yet for 2,930 of these Japanese. In other words, unless there is some explanation, it would appear that they may remain on the coast.

It is easy to criticize the British Columbia security commission. I do not agree with all that they have done, and I know they have made mistakes, but at the same time I suppose they deserve at least some credit for what they have accomplished to date. They have undertaken a veiy difficult job, a job of a type that has never been done in Canada before, and they deserve credit for what they have accomplished. At the same time I think it was unsound for the government to wash its hands of responsibility for this job and turn it over to civilians. The government should have remained in actual charge of the movement of Japanese from the Pacific coast rather than delegating citizens to do the work for it, and I suggest that from now on the government assume the actual management of the movement of these Japanese people.

In conclusion, I have two suggestions to make. I think the government will have to set up towns for these Japanese people. That has been done in the United States; and it was obvious to me from the beginning that sooner or later Canada would have to establish towns to which Japanese who are not placed otherwise could be removed. The sooner this is started, the sooner the problem will be settled,

The other suggestion is this. It is neither safe nor is it fair to keep these Japanese in British Columbia. Under present plans by far the larger number will remain there. They have spilled over from the protected area into the ridings of Yale and Kamloops, the hon. members for which have spoken to-day. Japanese nationals-not British subjects-are working on highway projects beside the Canadian National and the Canadian Pacific railways, astride both main lines through the mountains of British Columbia, where, if there should be an attempted invasion, they could do a great deal of harm. To me it has always seemed poor business to have so many of these Japanese nationals working in these vital spots. So I urge upon the government that the objective be to get every person of Japanese origin right out of British Columbia just as quickly as possible.

Mr. G. K. FRASER (Peterborough West):

I had not intended to take part in the debate this afternoon, but when the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) mentioned that last week the Japanese had cameras on a train and were taking pictures along the route, I looked up in Hansard of January 29, 1942, page 131, the question I asked on this point. I said:

I should like to ask the Minister of Pensions and National Health a question which I understand comes under his department. Has the government taken away all receiving and transmitting sets, cameras and firearms from all the Japanese residing in Canada?

The Minister of Pensions and National Health (Mr. Mackenzie) replied:

That would not come under my department. The only connection I have with that matter is the fact that I acted as chairman of a conference between certain gentlemen who came down here from British Columbia and a number of permanent officials of various departments in Ottawa. The question of firearms, cameras and receiving sets was discussed at the conference and a recommendation made to the cabinet. The Prime Minister issued a statement in regard to receiving sets and cameras, hut whether or not actual action has been taken by the mounted police upon that enunciation of policy I am not able to say at the moment.

I think the Prime Minister should tell us whether any action has been taken, and if so, what action.

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

Long ago.

Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):

Then why have they got the cameras? That is what I want to find out.

Mr. MACKENZIE (Vancouver Centre):

So do I.

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Mr. A. W. NEILL (Comox-Albemi):

I am glad that the hon. member for Kamloops (Mr. O'Neill) brought this matter up, but I am sorry he did not give us some notice in order that we might have prepared the data which many hon. members from British Columbia have and would have been glad to put on the record. I can only speak casually, out of recollection, instead of having the proven facts before me.

A good deal of trouble was caused in the earlier stages of this situation by the long delay in handling it. There was too much-as one hon. member called it

pussyfooting. There was considerable ground for the suspicion that the Japanese had friends at Ottawa that accounted for the long delay in, and the reluctance to do anything as regards moving them. It has even been suggested that the fishing boats would not have been seized had it not been for the action of the Americans who, if they did not actually do it, at least poked up the Canadian authorities to do it.

Then the question was, what to do with these men, a great many of whom were fishermen and thoroughly informed on the coastal situation. As I say, there was considerable delay. One hon. member has stated that United States authorities moved over a hundred thousand Japanese in short order, but we have not got all ours away yet, and he wondered why. Does he really not know? If not, I will tell him. It is time that the public and the house were told. Because there are two officials at Ottawa, deeply entrenched in the government offices, whose souls seem to be bound up in the prosperity and happiness of the Japanese in British Columbia. I think I should even name one of them who was brought here from British Columbia and has been given a prominent position in an office here. His name is a byword and a reproach in British Columbia for his open and passionate advocacy of the Japanese, their rights and their wrongs and their privileges. He was a member of a faculty of the university there and he has been lent by them to give instruction and information-first-hand information-to the Department of External Affairs, where he is in the very best position to have early information of any steps likely to be taken against his friends, the Japanese.

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

If my hon. friend is alluding to a member of the Department of External Affairs-he has not mentioned his name but he has said everything else it is possible to say-

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

Two of them.

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

Two of them, very well-I wish to say this, that so far as the Department of External Affairs is concerned, I will take complete responsibility for everything that is being done there in relation to the Japanese. There are gentlemen in the Department of External Affairs-fortunately- who have humane feelings in their breasts, which they are entitled to entertain, but I wish to say to my hon. friend that the possession of these feelings has not in any particular adversely influenced their judgment, nor has any members of the department dictated its policy.

Mr. NEILL:

I am sure that the Prime Minister as Secretary of State would not allow anybody to dictate his policy to him, but I do say that his advisers are biased-I think he will permit me to say that-the men to whom he naturally turns for information about the oriental situation in British Columbia are biased.

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

May I say to my hon. friend that all the circumstances to which he has alluded have been taken into account by myself and others of the department. The gentlemen whom he has in mind are not in the department as advisers on the Japanese question. They have their own views, but our judgment is formed independently.

Mr. NEILL:

Well, then, what are they doing there? Why were they brought from British Columbia?

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

They were not brought for the purpose of advising on Japanese affairs. They were brought here because of the many questions which have to be dealt with in the Department of External Affairs, because they were men with trained minds, to whom important matters could be entrusted.