February 26, 1943

NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

Has the minister notified the rear-admiral that he should not talk at all?

Topic:   MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY
Subtopic:   ROYAL CANADIAN NAVY
Sub-subtopic:   REFERENCE TO STATEMENT OF NAVAL OFFICER AS TO ENEMY SUBMARINE OPERATIONS
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LIB

Angus Lewis Macdonald (Minister of National Defence for Naval Services)

Liberal

Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):

Well, it is difficult for naval officers or officers of any of the forces, besieged as they often are by reporters, to say nothing. Often they are in a position where silence could be construed as a statement. I do not think these men want to talk, but I think they are really on occasions compelled to say something.

Topic:   MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY
Subtopic:   ROYAL CANADIAN NAVY
Sub-subtopic:   REFERENCE TO STATEMENT OF NAVAL OFFICER AS TO ENEMY SUBMARINE OPERATIONS
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NAT

Gordon Graydon (Leader of the Official Opposition)

National Government

Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Leader of the Opposition):

Even with the best interpretation put upon the statement made by the minister this afternoon it seems to me that a good deal is left to be desired with respect to the whole matter in connection with the safety of our country at this time. Civilians all over Canada are asked to seal their lips with respect to all matters concerning safety measures, and I think we should at least expect those in higher positions of authority to set us an example. I hope the minister will take appropriate steps to see that that is done in his department and among those who are in the navy.

Topic:   MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY
Subtopic:   ROYAL CANADIAN NAVY
Sub-subtopic:   REFERENCE TO STATEMENT OF NAVAL OFFICER AS TO ENEMY SUBMARINE OPERATIONS
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POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON RECONSTRUCTION AND REESTABLISHMENT


The house resumed, from Thursday, February 25, consideration of the motion of Mr. Mackenzie (Vancouver Centre) for the appointment of a select committee to study and report upon the general problems of reconstruction and reestablishment which may arise, at the termination of the present war,


LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin

Liberal

Mr. PAUL MARTIN (Essex East) :

When I adjourned the debate last night I had commented on the observations of the hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis) in respect of the treatment of men who return after fighting in- the present war. I concurred generally in what he had to say. I am sure he would be the first to want to impress on the country what has been done by the government, the Department of Pensions and National Health and the various committees of this house who have dealt with this very problem.

It might be helpful at this time if we were to review some of the endeavours and achievements in that regard. First of all, there is the Pension Act, which was revised in 1941; a committee of this house presented a long series of recommendations, most of which were adopted by the government within six months of being recommended. The regulations with regard- to medical assistance and treatment have been revised in various in-

Post-War Reconstruction

stances, and while I do not suppose they satisfy all hon. members nevertheless some real progress has been made. Then we would not want to forget the provisions concerning out-of-work benefits, vocational training, physical reconditioning, assistance to returned men who propose to engage in agriculture and who require credit, continued education, and the fixing of the proper status of the returned man under the Unemployment Insurance Act. Then there is the Compulsory Reinstatement In Industry Act passed in 1942; the Vocational Training Coordination Act of 1942; the extension of the principle of civil service preference to returned soldiers; the preference supposed to be given to returned men in respect of defence contracts; the setting up of representatives in government employment offices throughout the nation to look after the returned men, and the setting up of the various citizens' committees. One might also mention the work in regard to hospitalization, with the expansion of the number of beds from some 2,000, I believe, to about 8,000.

This record is not complete, but I am sure hon. members will agree that the problem has engaged the attention not only of the .^administration but of this house, and that what has been done reflects the determination of the membership of this house to do everything possible to ensure that those who have the primary responsibility in carrying on this fight will not suffer when they return to this country. Therefore, as was done last year by hon. members on the other side of the house, I think it is only fair to commend the Minister of Pensions and National Health (Mr. Mackenzie) for the leadership he has given in this endeavour.

Last night, too, I sought to indicate that in my opinion the general purpose would be best served in this debate by considering the general principles of the problems involved, leaving the working out of details to the committee. Perhaps I should preface what I have to say in that connection by agreeing with the observations of Doctor George Luxton, now with the Department of Labour, who in a recent number of Public Affairs said:

It is idle for us at the present time to draw up detailed blueprints to show how the employment gap will be closed. So much depends both on Canadians possessing the same unity of purpose as they have had in war time, and on an international atmosphere of mutual cooperation. But we can fruitfully consider the major determinants of the solution.

Is that not really as far as we can properly go? We must be prepared with our ideas and our plans, but in no circumstances must these

be regarded as final, because they will depend for their ultimate determination on circumstances and contingencies which are not now before us.

Topic:   MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY
Subtopic:   POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON RECONSTRUCTION AND REESTABLISHMENT
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CCF

Angus MacInnis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MacINNIS:

Nothing is final.

Topic:   MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY
Subtopic:   POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON RECONSTRUCTION AND REESTABLISHMENT
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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin

Liberal

Mr. MARTIN:

No; but I think it is

important for use to realize that, because sometimes when hon. gentlemen speak one has the impression that they have in mind a solution, a formula by the mere exercise of which these problems may be readily solved. I agree that it is not enough merely to state the four freedoms. I agree that it is not enough merely to confine oneself to general observations. Public opinion in this country and all over the world will demand a translation of those general observations into practical measures, so that the masses of our people will be secure in employment which will enable them to provide properly for their dependents, which will permit them to be properly housed, with adequate nutrition, adequate health standards, adequate educational opportunities and so on. Certainly these will be the minimum requirements; and bearing in mind that we are now giving of our property and our treasure to an extent to which we are not prepared to place any limit, I subscribe to the view that we should approach the problem of social readjustment in the same light. If we can spend our money and our energy on the prosecution of a war which was not of our making, every member of this house knows that as a public man he will be called upon to meet the public demand and see to it that we fight all the social and economic evils with the same energy and to the same extent that we are prepared to fight this war.

Topic:   MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY
Subtopic:   POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON RECONSTRUCTION AND REESTABLISHMENT
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SC

John Horne Blackmore

Social Credit

Mr. BLACKMORE:

If the hon. member would permit a question, what form would he expect that demand to take?

Topic:   MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY
Subtopic:   POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON RECONSTRUCTION AND REESTABLISHMENT
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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin

Liberal

Mr. MARTIN:

I have only a short time left, and I want to state my point of view, but I will not overlook that matter.

Last evening I quoted from the book by Professor Carr which was referred to by the hon. member for Vancouver East (Mr. Maclnnis), to indicate that there was a moral crisis and that one should not overlook this fact in considering the problems of the day. I did not mean to have that statement detached and to serve as an apologia for our omissions. I merely said, and repeat, that an affirmation of this kind is an expression of belief in the destiny of humanity itself, based upon common religious acceptances, which is fundamental to any economic or social programme that may be contemplated.

Post-War Reconstruction

Reference has been made to the planning technique, and I support the suggestion that has been offered. Of course one must plan, in the sense that one must prepare; but 1 say that by planning or by suggesting the planning technique we must not assume for one moment that as a result we shall have a dogma or a formula which in itself will be capable of dealing with any problem. Planning in the sense of preparation must be done, of course; and I readily admit that heretofore there has not been enough planning. In a moment I shall indicate the sort of planning I envisage, but I suggest that one must take great care in the setting up of the planning technique not to fall into the mistake of creating rigidities which will reduce men to the form and the position to which they have been reduced where planning techniques with false motives have been applied, particularly in the totalitarian countries. Right in our own country, during the emergency of war, we have set up a planning technique. What has been the result? There has been a very serious diminution of human liberty, a suspension which we are prepared to accept, having in mind the victory we all want and for which we are all striving. But I say this, and it may apply to the present situation as well as to the future. The planning technique as well as the system of administrative controls which must inevitably linger must be constantly abutted by legislative supervision and legislative scrutiny if we are not to have a situation in which these requirements are dealt with at the expense of human liberty, if we are not to have to return to the very sort of thing from which for centuries man has striven to extricate himself.

What I meant last night when I said that we had to look at this problem from the broad perspective was that these effects will be of no avail unless the whole thing is done on a collective basis with the participation of all nations. Our country which looks to the markets of the world for the source of its major income is in a special position in that respect. Consequently the kind of planning that I would envisage would be one where the key commodities available to all nations would be distributed through properly controlled nonprivileged international pools, where production and distribution would be controlled by international cartels, again not based upon legal or special privilege. The trend of the future must certainly be toward more extensive international control over raw materials, foreign exchange, markets and credit by some, let us call it a supranational agency along the lines designated this morning by Mr. Sumner Welles and yesterday in the United Kingdom by Mr. Morrison.

This in turn will call for the creation of some mechanism by which this can be brought about, and I would hope to think that the committee will formulate a plan and subscribe to the idea of the creation of an international bank, the control of production and distribution of the ' major foodstuffs and materials, a rationalized system of immigration and migration, the control of employment and the promotion of health and social welfare measures. All these things can be done only by collective effort. That is where I want to leave the emphasis. That is the impression I wish to leave, if I leave no other.

We have now the United Nations set-up. There are some who would create a new paper organization for the world, but I am not one of those. While I think the United Nations organization as now constituted could be perfected, I still should like to see its continuance. The present set-up between this country and the United States in the form of corporate bodies, the governmental agencies which have been set up between the United States and the United Kingdom and now between Russia and China-these ad hoc corporations and committees must continue. It is by such a movement, and by such a movement alone that we shall bring about some stabilization in the problems that will face us in the period of liquidation as well as in the period of the long term. If that does not happen we can expect only a recurrence of the incidents which brought about the situation that made it possible for unruly, evil men to try to gain control of the world as well as of their own continent.

It seems to me that we should have a programme of this kind set up, and I make the suggestion to the house somewhat along the lines of that made by Mr. Percy Corbett. We should have a trade commission instructed to secure the removal of quotas and other direct restrictions on trade and the reduction of tariffs. There should be a central bank developed out of the present bank of international settlements and having authority to fix funds and to maintain exchange rates. There should be a development commission having at its disposal substantial funds for financing public works of an international character and industrial installations, with the double object of raising the standard of living in undeveloped areas of the world and furnishing new outlets for the productive capacity of existing industrial countries. There should be a migration and settlement commission.

We may find ourselves at the end of hostilities faced with the situation we were faced with after the last war. A powerful creditor nation group or possibly a powerful' creditor nation may find itself in competition with other countries of the world that want

Post-War Reconstruction

to improve their immediate position and that find themselves obliged to compete in the markets of the world with that nation. If we are to have once again nationalistic monopolies; if we are to have private monopoly based on privilege, then we may as well give up. Great and gigantic as this task is, I have every confidence that we shall all be able to agree on the formula and the programme. It is by emphasizing these general principles that I think this committee and this government can make its ultimate contribution in helping us to get somewhere. The emphasis in the future must not be on the acquisitive side; it must be on the con-tributive side. The endeavour of men and all nations it seems to me should be not what they can get out of it but what they can make by way of contribution. We should strive to eliminate the two extremes which should not exist, particularly in a country like Canada, namely, the extreme of poverty on the one hand and the extreme of richness on the other.

It seems to me that these general observations should serve as lines of approach by this committee. I am not unaware of what the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) said in this house on March 25, 1942, as reported on page 1628 of Hansard. He said:

The war has to be won before there can be any thought of reconstruction: and if the winning of the war is to include as we hope it must the restoration of freedom to those parts of the world from which freedom has been taken away by aggressor [DOT] nations there is yet a vast task that lies ahead of the free nations of the world. I stress this because I should like to remove altogether any impression that in constituting a committee of this house to study the problems of reconstruction, the government or any one on this side of the house- or for that matter I hope I may say anyone in this House of Commons-entertains the illusion that at the present time we are anywhere within sight of the termination of the present war, or by any means certain as to its course at least for the immediate present.

I think we shall all concur in that. We do not want to give a false impression; we do not Want to have emphasis made where emphasis is not intended; we simply mean that part of the job of winning this war is to cultivate confidence in the minds and hearts, of those who are now in the territories occupied by the enemy. Let them know that we, too, are thinking of a programme for the improvement of the lot of man from the point of view of economic and social welfare. Let them know that when the time comes we shall be prepared to deal with the tremendous problems which will face us.

We made a great mistake at the close of hostilities in the last war. We built a utopia.

I was one of those. We thought that by putting formulae on paper we could bring about the millennium. We did not take into account the tremendous forces that the war had created. This time we must try to keep our feet on the ground. This time let us have a realistic approach, not forgetting the ideal but ever having in mind the practical difficulties. There is a challenge to our generation in this period of revolution, and that is what it is. Whether that challenge be managerial; whether it be collectivist; whether it be the functions of free enterprise or collectivism, there is a challenge to our society. It seems to me that the well-intentioned man in the good society should not fear this challenge; rather he should look upon it as affording an opportunity for constructive action.

Topic:   MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY
Subtopic:   POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON RECONSTRUCTION AND REESTABLISHMENT
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LIB

Charles Gavan Power (Associate Minister of National Defence; Minister of National Defence for Air; Minister of National Defence for Air and Associate Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Hon. C. G. POWER (Minister of National Defence for Air):

Mr. Speaker, I should like to say a few words in order to bring to the attention of the committee which is to deal with these matters, of the house and of the country a problem which I consider will be one of the most important and most difficult of those we shall have to solve in the years to come. It is in a way a problem special to the air force, but it does in a degree concern the other two armed services. It arises out of the hope, the desire and even the necessity which falls upon the people of Canada to deal effectively with the rehabilitation of the young men whom we have enlisted as aircrew and sent overseas. The problem differs to some extent from that which arose after the last war, and I say that with some knowledge because for the past twenty-five years I have been actively interested in the rehabilitation of the veterans of the last war.

My interest is also attracted by the fact that the most difficult cases we had to settle, and which I feel we were not able to settle satisfactorily with all the machinery and all the planning we undertook following the last war, were those of the teen-age boys who had enlisted before they reached their twenties. In this war, perhaps not a majority but still a very large proportion of the young men who are now in our fighter and bomber squadrons in the middle east and all over the world, are young men who have hardly reached the age of twenty. They have been taken from their high schools, or colleges and universities, and in some cases their education was not complete. They have not as yet established themselves in any vocation, in any trade, in any industry. We took them at the threshold of their lives and we have

Post-War Reconstruction

placed them in one of the most hazardous of all occupations. These young men have no job to go back to. They have no career in life. They may have had their hopes; they may have had their ambitions; they may have had their minds directed to one or other of the various occupations, that would be open to them in this country, but I submit to this house that the experiences which they are undergoing at the present time have in all probability diverted their minds from their peace-time thinking on these matters.

What shall we do with these men? We take them away from their schools and put them through the joint empire training plan. We teach them to fly, and they work up to the time when they first get into an aeroplane and experience the thrill of flying. There is

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themselves up to the point when they want to get into an aeroplane; after they have got into it and had the necessary training there is the thrill of their first solo flight; later, the thrill of moving into a faster aircraft and still later to a twin-engined bomber. Then they go overseas and are put through an operational training unit, where they learn to handle and to fight in a machine in which they are going into combat with the enemy. Then they are posted to an operational squadron, let us say a bomber squadron. They are sent on flights, varying from ten to twenty hours in duration, mostly at night in the darkness and in all kinds of weather; and ever present in their minds, no matter how brave they may be, there is the possibility of some mechanical defect in their engine. Always there is the danger of a lurking enemy night fighter. Then they find themselves right over the centre of the object which has to be attacked. They are surrounded by anti-aircraft fire. Sometimes their machine is almost torn asunder by flak explosions. They drop their bombs and begin the long trip home.

All this requires courage of a different kind from the courage which was required of the soldiers in the last war. The soldiers in the trenches needed nerve to sit there under bombardment day after day, in the wet and the dirt and the muck of the trenches. The airman requires a different kind of courage from that of the man who goes over the top to attack the enemy fortifications, and from that of the man who took part in the old-fashioned glorious cavalry charge. It is a different kind of courage that keeps the airman's nerve from wearing out under constant wracking hour after hour and

day after day until such time as his operational tour is completed. As a result of these experiences these men will come back to Canada, not wounded-that is not the problem, because the doctors can look after any functional disability. What we have to look after is the disability of the mind. We have thwarted that young man's ambitions and his hopes. We have violently and abruptly taken him away from the career which he might have hoped for and might have had in this country, and when he comes back here there i^ a let-down from all the thrills and excitement of the months of his training and the months of his operations. When the period of let-down comes, that young man, no matter who he may be, becomes a problem not only for the air force-it is their problem first, I admit-but after that, a problem for the whole country and a problem for every one oi us to consider seriously. He has become nerve weary. He is suffering from mind fatigue. As I said before, I do not care how brave or courageous he may be; something must happen to him when he goes out time after time on those hazardous journeys, waiting for the worst to happen.

How to treat him is a very difficult question. We have plans. We are proposing to send some of them to convalescent homes, but there are those who when they reach Canada do not want to hear any more about the war. They do not want to see a uniform again. They do not want to hear the sound of a motor. They ought to be sent away somewhere. Convalescent homes may suit them, but I do not know that convalescent homes where they would meet others of their own kind would be suitable, because they might be continually talking or thinking of the horrors they had undergone. We can and will arrange for their rehabilitation and the completion of their education at colleges and universities. We can arrange for their vocational training. We can endeavour to find them jobs in the air force while they are still with us, and then outside, after they have decided to leave. But I fear that the finding of jobs in the air force will not be so easy. It looked easy. I have been giving this matter consideration almost ever since I took on this ministry. But I know the experience I had in the last war. I have talked with every one with whom I could speak on this subject. I have discussed it with chaplains, who are nearest perhaps to the innermost thoughts of these boys. I have discussed it with the auxiliary services, and talked it over with psychologists and psychiatrists. Frankly, Mr. Speaker, although we have all these plans, I

Post-War Reconstruction

think it is a matter almost of dealing with each individual man as an individual case. It is almost impossible to lay down a formula.

It was easy enough for us to think: Well, we have any number of ground jobs here in Canada, any number of positions which could be made available by transfer or transposition. Frankly I thought we could bring back many hundreds of these men when they got through with operations and send others overseas to take their places; that they could carry on administrative work or even act as instructors in the place of the instructors here. Our experience up to the present has been too short for me to give any definite statement of opinion on it, but I have found that many of these lads will not stay here and will not take ground jobs. Some may come back with a certain amount of feeling against those who have jobs here in Canada, an unreasonable and unjustifiable feeling, but many of these returned men have not been here six months before they are begging and praying to go back to another tour of operational work. They do not seem to want to remain here.

I have in mind now four or five of the finest of our young fellows, all of whom have been decorated, and two of whom, I know, were offered and accepted command of fighter squadrons in Canada. But they would not remain here; they wanted to go back. It is a real problem to find something for them to do. Ground positions-administrative positions, equipment officer appointments, such jobs are open to them; the Lord knows they can have them so far as we are concerned and we will take all the time required to train them, because all of them had not the necessary training in high schools prior to enlistment, and they have had less opportunity for such training since they joined the air force. They were busy training for fighting or actually in operations. As I say, we will take all the time necessary to train and to acclimatize them to Canadian conditions; but I fear that unless we handle them somewhat differently and give the best thought of the country to this problem, we may not make a success of it.

_ The other point I wish to bring out is the importance of dealing adequately with this matter; because do not forget that these young men are the men on whom Canada's destiny is to be built. They are physically of the highest standard of Canadian youth. They are picked men educationally and mentally. They are the men who normally ten years hence would have been sitting in this House of Commons and fifteen or twenty years hence would have been occupying these treasury benches or the benches opposite.

I speak with feeling, because I believe this is one of the most important problems with which we have to deal. As I said, we have plans and have been giving them thought. I am not sure that our plans will succeed. It may be, as I have said, that we shall have to deal individually with each case. Even to-day, when they come back, and while they are still in the air force and under discipline, I am not sure whether we should have them under extremely severe discipline or under the least discipline possible. I am not sure which is best for them.

We are in the position that it is very difficult to place them under the command of men who saw service in the last war, even if those men won medals and decorations in that conflict. They are not at all interested in the old men of 1914-18, and the young men of their own generation who have seen service in this war are perhaps not old enough to take charge of a job which needs the wisdom of a serpent, the patience of the Madonna, knowledge of psychiatry' and psychology and the equipment of a doctor of philosophy.

Frankly, therefore, we are faced with a difficult problem. I ask the house to give it the best consideration; above all, to have patience with those who are trying to do a job of work with it. I ask each hon. member individually to think over something in this regard, and I can assure the house that we will give every consideration possible to ideas from any quarter with regard to any one of these boys who come back.

Topic:   MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY
Subtopic:   POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON RECONSTRUCTION AND REESTABLISHMENT
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson

National Government

Hon. R. B. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

I am not sure that I can contribute very much of value to this discussion, but before I embark on a consideration of the material which I had prepared I wish to tell the Minister of National Defence for Air (Mr. Power) that I am glad he brought up the particular problem to which he has referred. The position of these young men who have returned after months of trying activity in the most hazardous of all occupations so far during this war is a special and real problem of itself. But it is not the only problem relating to the returned man.

Topic:   MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY
Subtopic:   POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON RECONSTRUCTION AND REESTABLISHMENT
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LIB

Charles Gavan Power (Associate Minister of National Defence; Minister of National Defence for Air; Minister of National Defence for Air and Associate Minister of National Defence)

Liberal

Mr. POWER:

Oh, no.

Topic:   MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY
Subtopic:   POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON RECONSTRUCTION AND REESTABLISHMENT
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

Not by any means. Perhaps, as a matter of magnitude and intensity, having regard to the fact that the air forces have been in action so much, and will continue to be until the very end, it will be more difficult to treat than that of members of other branches of the armed forces.

Post-War Reconstruction

But there are other problems with regard to these men to which grave attention will have to be paid. I am ndt sure that we are grappling with the problem of the returned men to-day. I had a rather shocking experience on a train, coming here last Monday. I am referring to it only in passing; it arose from the discussion raised by the minister. I met two men on that train, one a discharged soldier from the Dieppe commando. He had enlisted in the city of Hamilton; he had gone overseas with his unit; he had volunteered to go to Dieppe; he had fortunately returned, but he had eleven shrapnel wounds in one of his legs. He returned to England, was placed in hospital for several weeks and then assigned to a unit at Aldershot. He told me that while he was there, an explosion of a gas main occurred in the camp. He volunteered with nine others to help fix the leak, and while he was so engaged he was severely gassed, taken again to hospital, and sent back to Canada to military district No. 5, in which he was born but in which he had not lived for many years. He was discharged in February of this year; and I saw his discharge. As the train bustled along I made this notation-I am not going to mention his name; I have written to the army about him. This is what is on his discharge sheet: "His services no longer required. Unsuitable for the army."

What do hon. members suppose was done to that boy? He was given a ticket costing $2.35 to the place where he was going, but he was refused a ticket to Hamilton at which point he said he could get his old position back. I am going to test the truth of that statement. It is of course an ex parte statement, and I do not know yet as to its correctness. But if the minister and other members of the government could have heard the curses that that young man heaped upon the Canadian army authorities he would have cause to stop, ponder and think. May I say, further, that at the beginning of the conversation that young man did not know who I was, although subsequently he did learn.

Another young man had come from the neighbouring county of Charlotte. He had been in the army for two years, but had not been sent out of Canada. Upon enlistment he was rated as category A. He was born and brought up in a farming community, and had never learned a trade. Although he had attended barber school for six weeks he had never worked at barbering. Upon entering the army he was given a trade course as an acetylene welder. This course affected his health, with the result that he could not go on. His physical condition deteriorated to a

point where, after spending two years in Canada and after the government spending a good deal of money on his training, he was discharged as category E. He applied for a trade course to become a barber, and was refused on the ground that when he enlisted he had told the army authorities he was a barber. Why he did so, I do not know.

If those two men could be here to-day and the minister could hear what they had to say about army authorities I am sure he would stop, ponder and think. I do not say that these stories are true, but I am trying to investigate them. They indicate, however, the magnitude of this problem of rehabilitation. I shall not say anything further with regard to these two cases, because I do not wish to judge them on the basis of ex parte statements. However, they appealed so strongly to me that I undertook to investigate them and, to the best of my ability, I am doing so.

The minister has raised the special case respecting airmen, and I believe he has done a service in bringing that matter to the attention of the house. I am afraid I cannot help him very much. I believe each case will have to be solved on its own merits, and some sort of remedy will have to be applied in individual cases where men do not, of their own volition and through the exercise of their own will-power settle down to civilian life. I say, however, that this may be one of the gravest problems with which the country will have to deal in days to come.

I listened with a good deal of attention to the speech of the hon. member for Essex East (Mr. Martin). I have no intention of following him through the philosophical disquisitions he placed upon the record so eloquently, but I suggest to him we must be a bit more realistic about this question of reconstruction. It will be a question of jobs, not theories. Only jobs will put contentment into the hearts of these returned men, and the others who will be transferred from war to civilian employment. You can talk about your League of Nations; you can talk about collective action with respect to the world set-up to be; you can say what you like about the mistakes made following the last war; but may I remind the house most respectfully that we won the last war, and we have not won this one yet. Let us not lose sight of fundamentals. The fundamental thing upon which this nation to-day should focus its attention is the winning of the war. In the statement my hon. friend read near the conclusion of his speech the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) himself emphasized that matter fully. Do not let us lose sight of the principal thing which should hold our attention to-day. This war is not

Post-War Reconstruction

yet won, and 1943 promises to be a pretty tough year. I think it will be the turning point in the war.

The terms of reference of the resolution practically reduce the committee to a study club. I am not objecting to that, but I must point out that that is really all the resolution is. I am sorry that in moving it the minister did not give a lead to parliament as to what was in the minds of the administration. It is the duty of the minister charged with the administration of soldier civil reestablishment and civil rehabilitation to give a lead to the country, when he proceeds to set up a committee under a motion of this kind. The government ought to have a policy which it is prepared to lay before the committee and before parliament. For aught I know, the minister has, but his very silence in not making any statement with respect to the matter when moving this substantive motion indicates to me that the government has no policy. He ought to make that position abundantly clear before the resolution passes.

Where does the government stand on this question, or is it going to leave this huge problem to the membership of the committee, and of the house generally? Not one of the members of the committee is an expert-and I say that with great respect and all due deference. I look over the names of these hon. gentlemen, all of whom are intent on trying to do their very best with respect to the study of this problem, but none of whom is capable of solving these problems.

Topic:   MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY
Subtopic:   POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON RECONSTRUCTION AND REESTABLISHMENT
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NAT

John Ritchie MacNicol

National Government

Mr. MacNICOL:

Some of them know a great deal about giving jobs, though.

Topic:   MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY
Subtopic:   POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON RECONSTRUCTION AND REESTABLISHMENT
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

I am coming to that later. I shall tell the membership of the house, if I have time before I take my seat, that there are three agencies which will solve ninety per cent of the problems in connection with rehabilitation. Those three agencies are private enterprise, coordinated with labour and capital. I am dealing with our own country. Those three agencies will largely solve the problem of rehabilitation, if they are given encouragement by the government, government support and wise legislation. My hon. friend's interjection has

prompted me to say this before I had intended to do so.

Coming back to my original thesis, namely, that the war is not yet won, that that is fundamental, and that 1943 is to be a tough year, I say we must take the position that until the war is won any discussion of postwar conditions and post-war problems is merely academic. On that point I find myself

in agreement with the Prime Minister. Conditions may change from day to day, and any hard and fast decisions which may be reached in advance of victory, or in advance of a victorious peace, may well prove to be wholly illusory: Therefore I say with all the earnestness and sincerity at my command: let us keep our eyes and our minds on fundamentals; let us keep our eye on the ball.

My approach to the consideration of these matters is not based on any philosophical theories as expounded so eloquently by the hon. member for Essex East, or any other economic theories. He stated yesterday that the approach to this problem must not be in terms of public works and that sort of thing. With that I am also more or less in agreement. But it should be in terms of the kind of world and the kind of country in which we shall live in the post-war years. That, he said, was the basic consideration for this discussion. I do not follow him there. I think what the people of this country are concerned about, what the men and women who are in war industry in Canada to-day, who may lose their jobs at the termination of hostilities and who should be absorbed into peace-time activities, are thinking about is work and jobs.

Topic:   MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY
Subtopic:   POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON RECONSTRUCTION AND REESTABLISHMENT
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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin

Liberal

Mr. MARTIN:

That is what I said; that is the basis.

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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

The returned men will want work and jobs, but will not want the dole, even in any such form as unemployment insurance. I suggest that the fundamental thing for all is proper planning on the part of all parties and interests so that work may be found for all at remunerative rates, so as to provide a good standard of living. As I listened to my hon. friend and read his remarks of last night I was wondering if he could tell us what kind of world the post-war period will bring. Do any of us really know what kind of world we shall have?

Topic:   MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY
Subtopic:   POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON RECONSTRUCTION AND REESTABLISHMENT
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LIB

Paul Joseph James Martin

Liberal

Mr. MARTIN:

I said I did not know.

Topic:   MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY
Subtopic:   POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON RECONSTRUCTION AND REESTABLISHMENT
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NAT

Richard Burpee Hanson

National Government

Mr. HANSON (York-Sunbury):

With some of the objectives outlined in my hon. friend's speech I am in agreement; with others I am not. I have, however, not the time even if I had the desire for an academic discussion of the various topics to which he has referred, except to say that we are at war for a definite purpose. We are at war to put down and defeat forces which seek to put an end to our present type of civilization. That is the one definite object of this war. I agree with the hon. member for Essex East in his statement, I think in reply to the hon. member for Weyburn (Mr. Douglas) last evening, that to

Post-War Reconstruction

suggest that we are at war to build a better world, as is sometimes stated, is to give to Hitler and those who think and act as he does, an admission that our present type of civilization is lacking in essentials and fundamentals. That I deny. We can improve it, but it is not lacking in fundamental essentials. In that respect I am in agreement with the hon. member for Essex East.

Topic:   MUNITIONS AND SUPPLY
Subtopic:   POST-WAR RECONSTRUCTION APPOINTMENT OF SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON RECONSTRUCTION AND REESTABLISHMENT
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February 26, 1943