Mr. H. C. GREEN (Vancouver South):

Mr. Speaker, I ask for leave under standing order 31 to move the adjournment of the house for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the urgent need for prompt and drastic action by the dominion government to prevent suffering by the Canadian people through a shortage of fuel.

And leave having been granted:

Mr. GREEN:

Mr. Speaker, I suggest to

hon. members that the time has come when this house must give the most careful consideration to the fuel situation in Canada, because in this country, whether we like it or not, fuel is a necessity of life and the fuel situation at the present time is very serious. I do not have to rely on my own opinion in making that statement; I have very good proof to support it in statements that have been issued by the government.

The first aspect of the situation is that there has been during the present winter a great shortage of fuel; and winter, much to our discomfort, still continues at least in this part of the dominion. Only a few days ago the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe), who is now responsible for Canada's fuel policy, issued a remarkable release dealing with the question. It is release No. 216a dated March 4, 1943; and dealing with the fuel situation during the present winter we find this statement:

Despite appeals made last year for an increased production of cordwood, insufficient was cut to last out this winter and some sections of the country already have suffered extreme hardship.

Further along in the press release we find some details of this hardship:

In one small town, within seventy-five miles of Ottawa, families unable to obtain fuelwood have been compelled to leave their houses and move into the already crowded homes of their neighbours. In the same town, and in other Ontario and Quebec localities, people have been obliged to burn fences, doors and flooring in order to keep warm.

In another portion we find the statement that there has also been a critical shortage

Fuel Shortage-Mr. Green

of coal during the present winter. I think most hon. members will agree with me when I say further that there has been great suffering on the part of the Canadian people, and that there has been great loss to the war effort, in that through illness or for one reason or another men have lost many hours of work in war industry.

So much for the present winter. But there is also a serious danger of a greater shortage next winter unless immediate action is taken. I find authority for this statement in this same press release which begins as follows:

Canada faces a wood fuel famine so serious that unless immediate action is taken many thousands may be unable to heat their houses adequately next winter; families may be forced to vacate their homes, and the health of others may be adversely affected.

The statement goes on to quote the Minister of Munitions and Supply as follows:

"Generally speaking," Mr. Howe says, "the prospect for next winter is very serious for the tens of thousands whose homes are not equipped for heating or cooking with anything but wood. It is no less serious for those who have been burning wood in furnaces and stoves in which either coal or wood may be consumed, for the shortage of coal has been critical this winter, and there is every likelihood that it may become more critical in the coming winter. Because less coal may be available, the demand for wood fuel is likely to rise."

At the beginning of the concluding paragraph we find this sentence: [DOT]

But if the shortages of wood fuel were severe this winter they will be much more severe next winter, unless immediate action is taken.

A few days later-in fact only five days ago, on March 11,-the Department of Munitions and Supply published an advertisement in many Canadian newspapers. I hold it in my hand, and I find that it is headed, in large type "Warning". Below that are the words "Canada faces a wood fuel famine next winter". The first paragraph reads:

Are you one of the Canadian householders who burned fences, doors and even flooring to keep warm in this winter's sub-zero weather?

Another paragraph says:

The dominion government recognizes that the wood fuel shortage is so serious that, even with the full cooperation of everyone in affected communities an adequate supply is not assured.

So that there can be no doubt whatsoever that the fuel situation is very serious.

Normally this would not be the concern of the dominion government; I realize that. Normally it would be left to the local authorities, and left of course to the law of supply and demand. In other words it would be a matter for the fuel dealers and the fuel producers, along with the people in the various communities. But now the dominion government must step in, because this is a war emerg-gency problem. That fact is recognized in the same press release, where we find these words:

"The Department of Munitions and Supply," said the minister, "recognizes that this emergency situation has been created in large part by the war conditions."

Of this there can be no doubt. In the first place the dominion government has absolute and unlimited control over man-power. The dominion government has the responsibility for the distribution of man-power. It has the power not only to set a ceiling on prices, but also to say at what prices fuel must be sold. The dominion government has stepped in in many localities and set up fuel control boards which in a measure have interfered with fuel distribution in localities in which these boards are functioning.

I repeat that this is now a problem for the government of Canada. What has the government done about it Well, after a great deal of pressure and much delay it announced on March 4, or about that time-the date of this press release-what its fuel policy would be. I shall not read it in detail, but it may be summed up as follows:

First of all, there is to be a subsidy of one dollar per cord paid to the dealers on all commercial fuel wood contracted for and cut on or before June 30 of this year, and held to dealers' account on that date. Hon. members will notice that this applies only to wood contracted for and cut on or before June 30 of the present year-that is, within the next three and a half months. The coal controller has been authorized to pay such portion of the transportation costs as he considers proper in respect of fuel wood, particularly where dealers find it necessary to contract for fuel wood at locations outside the areas from which they normally derive their supply. The coal controller will repurchase from the dealer at the dealer's cost the fuel wood on which the subsidy of one dollar per cord has been paid, and which is still in the dealer's hands on the 31st of May of next year, 1944. Assistance is to be given in providing priorities for necessary equipment. Farmers who leave their farms temporarily in response to this appeal to engage in cutting fuel wood are to be deemed, by the national selective service authorities, to be carrying out their regular occupation as farmers, and to be given the right to deferment from military service which such occupation now carries. There is however a proviso, which, I think, renders the last-named promise much less effective by

Fuel Shortage-Mr. Green

providing that such temporary absence should not interfere with agricultural production. In other words the farmer is to do his farming first; then if he has any time left he is to produce fuel wood.

That is the first branch of the government's fuel policy. Hon. members will notice that it leaves it to someone else to produce the fuel. These provisions go into effect only when somebody else has taken the initiative of getting out the fuel, or arranging to get it out. The way that works is clearly explained by an article which appears in the Vancouver Province of March 10, purporting to set out an interview with a fuel dealer. It states this as the opinion of the dealers:

Unanimously they declare the problem is one of man-power. "Get men into the woods, the mines, and the saw mills, and your fuel worries will be over," one dealer said. "Subsidies will not do any good if you have not got the men to produce the stuff."

Another dealer said:

Right now I have got carloads of coal idle on rail sidings without men to unload them, although I have had orders for labour with the selective service for several days.

In the Vancouver Province of March 11, we find pictures of these coal cars, for the unloading of which no men can be found. The article explaining the pictures says:

While many Vancouver homes are still dangerously short of fuel and local coal dealers attempt to cope with stacks of unfilled orders, carloads of coal are standing idle at railroad sidings here because of a lack of labour to unload it.

Milder weather in the past week has stepped up coal shipments from Alberta mines, dealers report, but their appeals to selective service for extra labour to shift the coal from boxcar to truck have been in vain.

That shows just how far this fuel policy does or does not go when it comes to the working out of the policy in a community. But there is a second branch of the government's fuel policy, it is to shove off the problem on to the local authorities, on to the municipalities. In other words, the Minister of Munitions and Supply by his fuel policy is attempting to place the fuel baby right on the laps of all the city fathers across Canada. He explains that quite carefully in the press release from which I have quoted, where he says:

This is a problem which primarily belongs to municipal and township authorities.

I submit to you, sir, and to the members of this house that that is where the policy is dead wrong; that is where the policy must be changed. I submit that the primary responsibility must rest upon this dominion government rather than upon the municipal authorities. In support of my submission I

propose to quote from a resolution which was passed by the city council of my home city of Vancouver on March 9, a copy of which was sent to the Minister of Munitions and Supply. It recites that on February 9 the iouncil forwarded to Ottawa a resolution pointing out that the wartime prices and trade board had power to produce and distribute fuel and to require any person possessing fuel to deal with it in such manner as the board may prescribe. It says that the city council have no such power, and goes on to say:

And whereas the supply of man-power in the production of fuel and the prices to be charged for fuel are both matters solely within the powers of the federal authorities and are fundamental to any solution of the problem;

Another recital reads:

And whereas there has now been received by his worship the mayor two letters from the coal controller, dated March 6, 1943, suggesting that the question of the supply of fuel in this city should be assumed by this council, and urging that the city provide a large reserve stock pile of fuel wood in the city;

It then sets out the views of the council of the third largest city in Canada on this fuel question, the city which has been hardest hit. I quote:

Therefore be it resolved that this council reiterates its former stand that it has no such control of man-power or prices as would enable it to undertake the securing and distribution of fuel in this city, and repeats that it is without legal power to engage in the production of fuel This council again points out that the problem is essentially one of man-power and that only federal authority can control that man-power. Unless men are put to work in the coal mines and in the woods, the shortage of fuel must continue. Only Ottawa can give the necessary direction to man-power, and it would be deceiving the public to suggest that this council can do so;

I admit at once that the citizens in the various cities and municipalities and townships of Canada can help, and I think it is right that they should be asked to help as much as possible. But the dominion government must accept the primary responsibility. This means that the Minister of Munitions and Supply, even more so the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell), and perhaps also the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley), who got rid of the problem quite neatly by passing it on to the Minister of Munitions and Supply, must accept primary responsibility for the production of fuel for the citizens of Canada.

I do not like to close without offering some suggestions, for what they may be worth. Others may be offered, but these the government should certainly act upon. First of all, the government should declare both the production and the distribution of fuel an essential

Fuel Shortage-Mr. White

industry. The government should so distribute man-power as to provide the necessary man-power for the production and distribution of fuel; by this time the government should know what man-power is required for this purpose. The government should set fair wages for the men engaged in the industry, and should set fair prices for the fuel. Perhaps forestry companies or forestry battalions should be set up such as those Canada has in Great Britain; such a step might help in the solution of this problem. Finally, the government should be prepared if necessary to ration fuel for the coming winter. Fuel is a necessity of life in Canada. The government has announced that its policy is to ration the necessities of life when necessary, and should be prepared to do this in connection with fuel for the coming winter.

In conclusion I repeat that this is primarily a problem for the dominion government. It cannot be evaded by the government. I stand behind what is contained in the statement given to His Honour the Speaker that there is an urgent need for prompt and drastic action by the dominion government to prevent suffering by the Canadian people through a shortage of fuel. In the press release and the advertising from which I have read, both emanating from the Department of Munitions and Supply, stress has been placed upon the need for immediate action by the municipal authorities -in other words, the need for immediate action by someone else. I close by pointing out that the need for immediate action is a need for such action by the dominion government.

Mr. G. S. WHITE (Hastings-Peterborough):

Mr. Speaker, the present fuel situation in Canada is of such importance that it certainly deserves the consideration of the house. Recent press dispatches have indicated that there is a most serious fuel shortage throughout the entire dominion. The press dispatches quoted by the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) bear this out, as do the official statements made by the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe). The release issued by the department states that this problem is one which belongs primarily to the municipal and township authorities. But in making that statement the minister overlooked the fact that the fuel shortage which has existed during the past winter and which still exists is due to the action of the wartime prices and trade board in setting a ceiling price in August, 1942, without any consultation with the municipalities to whom they now wish to pass the problem. They set a price which was far too low.

The village of Marmora is located close to large wood areas and woodlots. One local dealer contracted last summer to take out 2,500 cords of fuel wood. In August, when a price ceiling was placed on fuel, he cancelled every contract and did not take out one cord of wood. He could not operate at the prices set by the wartime prices and trade board. The action taken by this contractor in Marmora was duplicated in many other places in eastern Ontario. When the price ceiling was put on, the labour that was usually available in the fall for work in the bush and in lumbering operations was soon absorbed in the mines and industrial plants in the surrounding area. It is quite true that in January of this year, when the price was raised $2 a cord, the operators could operate at a profit, but the whole problem then was to obtain the necessary labour. The subsidy of $1 a cord to be paid to dealers, and the assistance that is to be given in transportation costs, will help. But it all comes back to the question of man-power.

The minister has announced that the wood fuel shortage within the next few months will be somewhere around half a million cords. I quite realize that it does not help at this late day to say that this shortage is due to muddling, but I do say it all comes back to the lack of a proper man-power policy on the part of this government. Until recently few people considered that wood was an essential, and very little attention was paid to the seasonal labour employed in cutting wood. These men were allowed to drift into industry or were called up for military service. In his statement to the house a short time ago the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell) announced his plans for farm labour but made no reference to what he proposed to do with respect to the shortage of man-power in the fuel wood industry. It is strange that he failed to make reference to the serious situation that exists to-day in the fuel wood industry. That situation prevails in most of Quebec, and yet the minister and the government allowed a very large number of Canadian woodsmen to leave this country to work in the lumber and logging industries of the United States.

This release from the Department of Muni-'tions and Supply also states:

No central authority could with any degree of efficiency take the necessary steps to meet local demands which are so diverse in different localities.

I ask the minister, why, is it not possible to organize units which could be moved from district to district where wood is available for cutting? It seems to me that in view of the serious situation which now exists there must

127S

Fuel Shortage-Mr. White

be some over-all organization established, with central authority, if we are to obtain propel results. Under the regulations for the control of man-power the minister has the authority and the power to transfer men from one industry to another and to place men wherever they are most needed.

As pointed out by the member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) this release of March 4, 1943, does make some provision for farmers cutting wood; but as most hon. members know, the average farmer and farm hand at this late date in the season has very little time in which to engage in cutting wood. I wish to second the suggestion of the hon. member for Vancouver South that labour battalions or forestry units be established. There must be many men in the home defence forces who have had experience in this type of work. In addition there are the conscientious objectors, and the Doukhobors and the German and Italian war prisoners. Surely from this large body of man-power the minister can obtain sufficient men to undertake this very important work.

Some time ago the minister announced that about four thousand coal miners had been -eturned to the coal mines in order to cope with the shortage of coal. Why, then, cannot men with experience in wood cutting be returned to do that kind of work?

There is also the question of the necessary equipment for cutting and taking out wood. The minister attempts to pass the responsibility to the individual municipality, but when you analyse that proposal, how can the individual municipality obtain the necessary equipment, trucks, and so forth, to transport the men many miles back and forth each day in order to furnish the municipality with its own individual wood supply? It seems to me that instead of having hundreds of small municipalities trying to operate on a very small scale, and considerable expense which must in the end be borne by the local tax-payer, we should have an over-all scheme, with central authority; the government should take over the entire responsibility for supplying fuel where a shortage exists.

Some years ago when the Ontario hydro put their power line through from the Gatineau to Leaside, they ran a very wide right-of-way through a heavily wooded section of the country; the hydro organized bush gangs, which were housed under canvas and moved from place to place, and in that way did a good job in a short time. This gives some indication of what can be done with properly organized labour battalions or forestry units To-day in the district in which I live men are being offered $4 a cord to cut wood, but

no men can be had at that price because no men are available. I suggest that the whole solution lies in the question of man-power, which is controlled entirely by the federal government, and that it is up to the federal government to supply the necessary manpower to meet this crisis.

Mr. E. G. HANSELL (Macleod):

Mr. Speaker, the basic reason for discussing at this time this matter of public importance, namely, the shortage of fuel in Canada, is of long standing. It dates back to the beginning of the war-yes, and even farther back than that. The problem specifically before us arises from the bungling man-power policy of the government ever since the war broke out.

Oh.

Mr. HANSELL:

Someone says, oh. It is a very easy word to say. Like some other things, it covers a multitude of sins. Had the government listened to this small group at the beginning of, the war-I refer particularly to the speech that was made by the hon. member for Lethbridge (Mr. Blackmore) when this honourable house through its legislation declared war on the axis powers-we would not now be discussing this matter, because in that speech the hon. member for Lethbridge recommended the total mobilization of Canada's financial, industrial and manpower resources. His proposal was at once misinterpreted. People thought we were proposing that eveiy man should shoulder a gun and be put into the battle line. That was not the intention. The intention was that every man should be called to his task, and one of the tasks in war time is to have a properly functioning industry which will promote the war effort up to one hundred per cent of the industrial and man-power capacity of the country, part of which is the coal mining industry. Had that proposal been accepted, had the government not been shortsighted in this matter, the coal mines of Canada to-day would be well manned and there would be no shortage of coal.

It is very hard for us to realize that in a country such as Canada, which contains fourteen per cent of the entire world's coal deposits, and includes, let me say, the province of Alberta, which has eighty-five per cent of Canada's coal deposits, anyone should go cold in winter time. Some of us have correspondence on this subject on our files, and the government are aware of it because they were approached during the past winter by many municipalities and cities in this country warning them that our citizens were

Fuel Shorlagc-Mr. Hansell

going cold because they could not get fuel. The condition is a serious one, particularly when looked upon in the light of the fact that we have in this country so much coal and other forms of fuel.

Some of us come from coal mining constituencies. We are aware of the problem and we look at it in the light of the fact that coal mining in Canada is a large industry. About eighteen months after the war broke out I realized what might happen should there be a shortage of coal, and at once got in touch with the then minister of labour, the present Secretary of State (Mr. McLarty).

I had a talk with him and as a consequence told him I would write him outlining my conception of a coal policy for Canada in the event of unforeseen circumstances coming into the picture. On April 4, 1941, I wrote this letter to the minister:

Hon. N. A. McLarty,

Minister of Labour,

Ottawa.

Dear Mr. Minister,

Pursuant to my interview with you in regard to the coal situation in Canada as it is related to probable unforeseen events during time of war, may I present to you the following for your careful consideration.

Much has been said in the past concerning future markets in Canada for Canadian coal, and while I have consistently urged in and out of parliament that these markets be increased to a point where all Canadian mines are operating at full capacity, I would impress you, sir, from my observations I have concluded that although all coal mines in Canada, as presently equipped were producing to capacity, such production would not nearly supply Canadian demand without the aid of coal imports. This being so it therefore follows that the great industrial areas of Canada must be, at the present time, largely dependent upon the ability of the country to obtain coal from other countries, or increase considerably our own potential production.

This consequently raises the question of any possibility arising whereby difficulty would be faced in obtaining sufficient coal to avoid a break-down in our wartime production.

According to information published by the wartime economic coal committee only three per cent of the annual production of American coal finds its way to Canada. The meaning of this is alarming, when considered in the light of even a slight break-down in the American coal industry. Should the United States increasingly require coal for their own wartime industries, and anything happened which would reduce their own output by only three per cent thus making it difficult to supply Canada with coal, our own wartime industry would be almost completely stopped, and little or nothing could be done about it. ....

One might venture to ask what possibilities there are that would cause any breakdown in the output of coal. One answer to this is the likelihood of labour troubles. That, Mr. Minister, is my particular reason for addressing this to you, and I would earnestly suggest that you 72537-81

make suitable inquiries at Washington as to the labour situation as it exists or might eventually exist in the coal mining industry of America

Quite recently the press have carried dispatches which show that labour is having its troubles in the United States. As you have noticed under date of March 31 news comes to the effect that the President of United States interceded to prevent a strike of some 330,000 coal miners. .

I trust it will not be considered an imposition on my part to suggest to the government that they take special care to prepare for any eventuality which might arise. This can be done by so managing our affairs as to gradually bring the coal mining industry of Canada to a place where we are not dependent upon outside sources. I would urge that this is a serious matter as to deserve the very best attention of the government.

I am taking the liberty of sending a copy of this letter to the Hon. Mr. Crerar, Minister of Mines and Resources, and to the Hon. Mr. Howe, Minister of Munitions and Supply.

Yours very truly,

Ernest G. Hansell,

Member of Parliament.

I received a cordial reply from the then minister of labour. I might say in passing that I received an acknowledgment from the Minister of Munitions and Supply (Mr. Howe) but not from the Minister of Mines and Resources (Mr. Crerar). The then minister of labour gave quite an exposition of the situation as it existed. But one paragraph reads thus:

It is quite true, as you state, that the amount of United States bituminous coal imported into Canada represents about three per cent of the total United States output, to be exact it was 2-52 per cent in 1939 and 3-55 per cent in 1940. It must be remembered however that the four hundred and fifty-three million tons of bituminous coal'produced in the United States in 1940 is still one hundred million tons below the average produced in the years 1923-29; in other words, the United States bituminous coal industry is capable of considerable expansion, and it is not probable that any serious shortage can be anticipated.

I would emphasize that last sentence. Commenting on that statement I may say that the Canadian coal industry also is capable of considerable expansion, and if an orderly expansion of the Canadian coal mining industry had taken place with a view to providing our own people with our own coal, we would not be discussing this matter to-day. I agree with other speakers that this is largely the responsibility of the government, because of its short-sighted man-power policy. Let me illustrate. In one family in my constituency there are six sons, all of them coal miners, with a widowed mother to support. When the war broke out this little family held a conference. The mines were working short time

Fuel Shortage-Mr. Hansell

then; miners were looking for something else to do to keep out of the bread line. The boys said: "We will all enlist; we will volunteer to fight for our country." They looked at the youngest of the family, and they said to him: "We believe you should stay behind and take care of mother." The youngest of the family said, "All right; if you enlist I will stay at home and look after mother." The five of them enlisted. Some of them are overseas to-day. The time came when the government saw fit to put into effect the mobilization act. We thought then that perhaps the government was beginning to listen to the small group in this corner, but I am afraid that was too much to expect. The mobilization act was passed; the country began to call up its men. The youngest boy was called into the service. It did not matter whether he had four or five brothers fighting, he was called up, and he had to go. It was not until the government realized the seriousness of the man-power situation in the mines that this young boy was able to get a three months' leave. An extension of that leave was given to him. Now he will have to apply for another extension and then another. The situation has become so bad during this winter that the Minister of Labour has had to freeze all labour in the coal mines.

Surely it is obvious that if there had been an orderly mobilization of all our man-power, putting every man to his task and paying him what he was worth to the country, this situation would not be upon us to-day. There needs to be a review of our entire man-power policy in respect of this country's needs and the needs of industry.

We see the same thing happening in respect to farm labour. I am not going to discuss that now; I cannot because we are not on that subject. But there is a farm labour shortage, so that the government had to change its policy and send an interpretative letter to the various mobilization boards as to what it desired to do. But if these things had been done with a long-range view as to the best way of carrying on in Canada in time of war, this sort of thing never would have happened. When will the Liberal administration of this country do things in the right and proper way? That is the question I ask.

Mr. J. A. ROSS (Souris):

Speaking in the address in reply to the speech from the throne on February' 4, I referred to the fuel problems of this country. Since that time they have in many respects become intensified. I pointed out that on November 21, 1942, I had sent a telegram to the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) pointing out that:

Many municipal officials fear that due to lack of fuel with severe winter weather there will be undue hardship and suffering on the prairies. The present labour difficulties at the coal mines is the result of lack of proper coordination by various departments of the government. Imperative that immediate action be taken to avoid a very serious situation.

The Prime Minister replied saying that the contents of that telegram had been passed on to the ministers of the two departments concerned, the departments of finance and labour. I also sent a copy of the telegram to Mr. A. MacNamara, who had just been put in charge of man-power.

My home town of Melita is situated on a direct railway line within ninety miles of a coal field in Saskatchewan. It has been unable to obtain sufficient coal from those mines, and as a result the consolidated school in the area has been closed for lack of fuel.

I also made some reference to resolutions I had received from municipal officials and officers of the associated boards of trade of Manitoba at that time. A meeting was called by the mayor of Minnedosa, Doctor E. H. Clark, regarding the fuel situation, on January 27, 1943. Representatives were there from Brandon, Neepawa, rural municipality of Odanah, rural municipality of Saskatchewan, the towns of Minnedosa and Dauphin. Mayor Young stated that the fuel shortage -was a national emergency and that pressure should be brought to bear on the government at Ottawa to do something about it. A general discussion took place, and the following resolution was passed:

It is hereby resolved that this meeting, representative of a large area of western Manitoba, take immediate action to impress upon the government of Canada the very serious fuel situation now facing the people of western Manitoba.

Be it further resolved that the government of Canada be requested to establish without delay, organize and operate necessary wood camps in Clear Lake national park and vicinity, providing necessary labour and transportation facilities to place such fuel at suitable designated points on winter highways. Sale and distribution of such fuel wood to be under supervision and control of officials appointed by the government of Canada.

I placed on Hansard on February 4, a copy of a resolution, which appears at page 137; I shall not repeat it. There was much other information which I received from those people. Under date of March 11, I received further information under the signature of Mayor Clark of Minnedosa. He said:

Re fuel situation in western Manitoba.

A further meeting of the associated boards of trade and municipalities of western Manitoba was held in Minnedosa yesterday.

Fuel Shortage-Mr. Ross (Souris)

Minnedosa has no coal or wood in dealers hands. Neepawa has no wood. The committee has sent Superintendent James Smart a telegram offering $3.25 a cord for one hundred cords of dry wood piled just north of Clear lake. We cannot be sure of roads for a week ahead at this season and have asked for immediate instructions to the superintendent.

We learn that 1,000 to 1,500 cords of green wood may be cut by the A.S. workers now cutting in the park. This wood cannot be profitably hauled until next fall, green wood is too heavy to handle until then.

The fire-killed wood in the Lake Audy area should be felled as it was burned three years ago this spring. This wood, if made available, could be hauled through this summer and makfe certain that the community shall be supplied through 1943 and the winter 1943-44. The price should be set and the superintendent authorized to sell to the municipalities as required.

A much greater number of workmen must be put at the work if an adequate supply for summer and fall delivery is to be provided. If A.S. workers are not available the government should plan the provision of men. Shortage of labour is the whole reason for this short fuel supply and selective service under its control alone can correct this.

The camps now operating should be continued and greatly enlarged and a major part of the 100,000 cords made available for delivery through the summer and fall.

My colleague, the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) has referred to an advertisement which appeared in all the local papers throughout Canada, headed:

Warning

Canada faces a wood-fuel famine next winter.

It is published under the authorization of the Minister of Munitions and Supply. It goes on to say:

Are you one of Canada's householders who burned fences, doors, and even flooring to keep warm in this winter's sub-zero weather?

The shortage already has affected many communities . . . total stocks of dry wood are nearly exhausted ... in some places the small supply of green wood cut for next winter is being used nowr to meet the present emergency.

It goes on to refer to the subsidy of $1 per cord offered under the new regulations. While I am on that point I should like the minister, when he replies, to tell us who ultimately gets that $1, whether the producer or the dealer. I find this at the bottom of the advertisement:

Municipal councils, farmers, fuel dealers, individual citizens, service clubs, and all other groups in communities where wood fuel is burned, are urged to begin at once a rapid survey of their local situation, and to take immediate action to relieve the shortage.

As has been pointed out by previous speakers, this is definitely a responsiblity of the federal government and not of the local municipalities, especially in time of war. In my opinion the man-power muddle and the 72537-81J

operations of the wartime prices and trade board are responsible more than anything else for our present fuel difficulties. I have some personal knowledge of this problem, since I own a small river woodlot myself, as do several of my neighbours. Last fall and this winter I endeavoured to hire men and make arrangements to have that wood cut and taken out, but found that under the existing regulations of the prices board I could not hire a man to do this work and sell the wood at any profit at all. On March 9, 1943, at page 1075 of Hansard, the finance minister referred to the price per cord of bush wood m British Columbia. He said that with the authorization of the wartime prices and trade board the price had been increased from $9 to $13 a cord, and that this price was deemed necessary to assure a supply for that particular zone. I assure the minister that this same difficulty exists in a large part of the area which I have the honour to represent. A moment ago I referred to the resolution from the associated boards of trade, in which they pointed out that they had offered $3.25 for cut wood as it was piled in the national parks. Poplar wood, which is the poorest type of fuel wood you can purchase, sells in my home town for $8.50 a cord.

Speaking in this chamber on November 10, 1941, I referred at some length to the brief on man-power and national selective service which had been presented to the Prime Minister and the members of his cabinet by the dominion executive of the Canadian Legion, on October 21, 1941, calling upon the Prime Minister to institute all necessary measures to place Canada on a total war footing. This brief asked that the mobilization of man-power should be undertaken immediately in order that our resources of manpower might be used to the best advantage, whether in agriculture, industry or the armed forces. In the advertisement to which I have already referred the minister makes a special plea to agriculture to assist in getting out this wood. Speaking further at that time I said, as will be found at page 4210 of Hansard for 1941:

I hope, therefore, that due consideration will be given by the government at once to instituting national selective service at this time, in the interest of people in all walks of life; for I am sure many ministers realize what their duty requires of them in the present situation.

I am more convinced than ever that the government should have taken that step at that time. It was essential then; certainly it is much more essential to-day.

I take it to be only fair that I should give any suggestions I may have as to a way out of this difficulty. May I suggest first that the

Fuel Shortage-Mr.. Gillis

price controller allow the necessary price adjustments so that people can afford to cut and sell their wood if the help is available. Then I suggest that wood camps be organized in such places as Clear Lake national park and other suitable points throughout Canada. Here conscientious objectors and draftees could be employed; and in certain cases, under proper supervision, prisoners of war could also be used.

Mr. CRUICKSHANK:

What does the hon. member mean by "draftees"?

Mr. ROSS (Souris):

I think the Minister of Labour, under whose department that comes, will explain all the details.

Mr. MITCHELL:

The hon. member should explain them; he is offering the suggestion.

Mr. ROSS (Souris):

In war time this fuel problem is definitely a responsibility of the federal government, not of the municipality.

Mr. CLARENCE GILLIS (Cape Breton South):

Mr. Speaker, the situation described

this afternoon by the hon. member for Vancouver South (Mr. Green) was not unexpected by this group. From time to time in this house, in 1940, in 1941, and on at least three occasions in 1942, I pointed out exactly where we were heading so far as the future of fuel in Canada was concerned. On June 8, 1942, I pointed out to the Minister of Finance (Mr. Ilsley) that the coal mining industry in the east, the west and the centre was working half time, and that we were fast approaching the time when the coal supplies of the United States, upon which we depended, would not be available. Again on June 18 and August 1, I brought this matter to the attention of the house, and since then I have waited patiently for the situation that has finally overtaken us.

I listened with great interest to the presentation by the hon. member for Vancouver South, but he made two statements with which I cannot agree, and I want to take this opportunity of explaining why. The hon. gentleman said this was a war emergency situation. I do not agree with that. This is a creeping paralysis that has been developing in Canada, so far as a fuel policy is concerned, for the past thirty years.

Mr. REID:

Not in British Columbia.

Mr. GILLIS:

I am not discussing wood

just now; with the proper organization of our fuel, possibilities in Canada we would not require so much wood. When I mention fuel I refer to the recognized national fuel of Canada, which is coal. Repeatedly, through their union representatives, the miners have

waited on both Liberal and Conservative governments of Canada with respect to a national fuel policy and the full realization of the available fuel in Canada, properly organized and properly marketed. So that instead of characterizing the present problem as an emergency situation, I say it is just a matter of blundering on the part of both the old line parties with respect to the question of fuel. This situation has not developed over night; we have been watching its development for the past three years, and very little has been done about it.

I also disagree with the hon. member when he says that ordinarily this would not be a matter for the federal government. I think at no time and under no circumstances, in a country like Canada, with its nine provinces and its hundreds of municipalities, can you leave the organization, the marketing and the distribution of a natural resource which is absolutely necessary to the nation in the hands of small groups in the various communities, with any hope of working out any sort of proper solution. This is one problem which was always within the province of the federal government. It is a national industry, and we should have had a national fuel policy with a national marketing board who would have been cognizant of the situation which has developed, and who would have taken steps to offset it.

In the presentation thus far by hon. members one point has been completely missed. It has reference to the men employed in the industry. First we are told it is a lack of a man-power policy, a lack of this and a lack of that. As a matter of fact it is just a matter of getting enough men there to put them to work. If we are to have any satisfaction in the fuel industry of Canada we must have some recognition of the men who actually go below ground to produce the fuel. It is not just a matter of ordering men to go into the mines, or of sending them underground and expecting them to produce to a maximum. It just is not going to happen that way.

Mr. GREEN:

I said there must be fair wages.

Mr. GILLIS:

Let me point out to the hon. member for Vancouver South that according to a press report men were taken from the army and sent back into the mines. They worked there for a short time, and then went back to the army, issuing a public statement to the effect that they would not work under the conditions and for the wages which applied to miners in British Columbia. They said they were making more money in the army, and accordingly they went back to the army.

Fuel Shortage-Mr. Gillis

The first point to which consideration must be given, if the men are to stay in the mines and produce coal, is that of providing proper working conditions, paying proper rates of wages, and recognizing the problems of miners themselves. Coal miners cannot be kept in the mines if they are given an opportunity to enlist. Men are leaving the mines in large numbers and going into the army, because they are escaping something they know is worse than what they are going into. We must begin to recognize that fact, and make it a part of the organization of our industry.

I say to the Minister of Labour what I have said for the last three years, namely, that the mining industry stands at the root of our country's welfare and is essential to our war effort. The freezing of wages and the usurpation of the powers of collective bargaining of this group of men, who have been organized for the past thirty years, have definitely retarded progress in this field. Neither the miners of the east nor those of the west have been able to come to any understanding with the operators in connection with wages. There has been continuous strife in the mining industry, because they have had to come to Ottawa to iron out their grievances and have adjustments made in their wages.