Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):

Yes, but at no time should the governor in council or the cabinet have to sit down and trouble themselves with trifles. They have to deal with great and important matters. Minor regulations should be dealt with by the departmental head, deputy ministers, or even

Naval Service Act

officials lower than that. I am afraid the tendency to-day is to throw too much on cabinets, instead of placing responsibility where a lot of it ought to be, namely, on the ministers and departments.

Mr. GREEN:

What power has the minister now to make regulations-before the passing of this measure?

Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):

Under the present act certain powers are not specified to anyone. Under section 5 the minister is given control and administration of all naval affairs. Under section 6 he is given control and management of all naval establishments and ships. Then he is given further powers under section 34.

Mr. GREEN:

That is the old section. What does it enable him to do?

Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):Sections 5 and 6 give the minister general

control and management of naval affairs, naval establishments and naval ships. Then section 34 is the one which deals with target practice.

Mr. GREEN: None of them gives him

power to make regulations.

Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):

This book of Canadian naval regulations contains many regulations now made by the minister. Some are made by the governor in council, and others are merely copies of sections of the statute which are considered applicable. But there are a great many regulations here which the minister has made by himself.

Mr. GREEN:

Perhaps he has been making them without authority.

Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):

I hope not.

Mr. STIRLING:

I notice that paragraph (f) changes "seaman" to "man", for reasons explained on the opposite page. I am wondering if there is any reference to the Women's Royal Canadian Naval Service, or whether they come under the composite title "man".

Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):

I

am glad the hon. member has raised that question. If he will look at section 22 of the bill he will find under the heading "naval volunteer reserve" these words:

22. The naval volunteer reserve shall consist of officers and men raised by voluntary engagement from among seafaring persons-

The word "persons" is used there deliberately to permit the inclusion of the WRCNS.

Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):

Paragraph (a) states:

(a) "active service" as applied to a person in the naval forces means service or duty during an emergency.

Then, further down:

(d) "emergency" means war . . .

And so on. Does this apply to boys in training in the different camps or training centres in Canada, or does it apply to those who are on ships?

Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):

What section is my hon. friend reading from?

Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):

Section 2, paragraph (a). '

Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):

Every one in the navy is now on active service.

Mr. FRASER (Peterborough West):

Whether they are in a training camp or on a ship?

Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):

Yes; that is right.

Mr. MacNICOL:

Why is paragraph (g) not in the same position as paragraph (c)? Paragraph (c) refers to deputy minister, whereas paragraph (g) refers to minister, and it strikes me that the minister ought to come first.

Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):

They are arranged alphabetically.

Mr. STIRLING:

Does the minister consider that the women in the Women's Royal Canadian Naval Service are taken care of by the explanation he has given? Over and over again the word "man" appears in the bill; does he suggest that the use of the word "persons" in section 22 gives the necessary authority to deal with these women where a man, a petty officer or officer is referred to throughout the bill?

Mr. MACDONALD (Kingston City):

The draftsmen advise me that under the Interpretation Act, which applies to this bill and to all the regulations under it, the word "man" would be taken to include women, apart altogether from the use of the word "persons" which, of course, includes both men and women.

Mr. GRAYDON:

If that interpretation is to be carried out then the provision for equal pay for women would automatically come in. If the minister is going to give us that definition now, perhaps we may expect that from now on the Wrens will get equal pay. with the men.