Mr. CASE:

Mr. Chairman, my understanding is that the amendment now before the committee seeks to commit us to the articles of agreement. As I read it, we approve those articles of agreement. However, before I could vote I would want to have an explanation from the Minister of Agriculture with respect to article XIV, which deals with supervision of other organizations. It says:

The conference may approve arrangements placing other public international organizations dealing with questions relating to food and agriculture under the general authority of the organization on such terms as may be agreed with the competent authorities of the organization concerned.

Would this in any way interfere with empire trade agreements or with the British preference? I am convinced that in Canada we have made remarkable progress as a result of the British preference and empire trade agreements, and I should like to feel that we are secure in that regard.

Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) :

Before answering the question asked might I be permitted to read to the committee the suggested amendments, some of which were agreed to last night, and others of which were drafted following a meeting last night with some who had raised the objections to the form of the bill as.it then stood.

I am sorry that the bill as now printed is not in the hands of every hon. member, although I had understood it would be here at three o'clock. However, it is not here because in the rush between the time we adjourned last night and this morning some things were put into the bill which were not intended to be

there. That is, some of the motions, rather than sections of the bill, were reprinted, with the result that we had to have it printed over again. The reprinted copies will be available in a short time.

I would refer to section 2 of the bill, which was under discussion last night. The new subsection I is as follows:

(1) The constitution of the food and agriculture organization is hereby approved.

I think that is the amendment to which reference has just been made.

Then, subsection 2 is amended to read:

(2) The governor in council may make such appointments, establish such offices, make such orders in council and do such things as appear to him to be necessary for carrying out the provisions of the constitution set out in the schedule to this act.

That is word for word with the first part of subsection 1 as it appears in the bill as first printed. In the new subsection, however, the remainder of the section is left out. The effect is that the new section takes in all those words down to the word "act" in line 24 of the old bill. Then the remainder of the subsection is struck out as was agreed last night.

Subsection 2 in the bill as we had it yesterday will remain the same as it appears in the copy now before us, with the exception that the word "one" in the second line of the subsection becomes the word "two." The subsection would now read:

All expenditures incurred in carrying out the provisions of subsection two of this section shall be defrayed out of moneys provided by parliament.

I have not yet had an opportunity to ask the Minister of Justice, and also to confer with those who have made this suggestion, as to whether I should not include the words "one" and "two." It would then read:

All expenditures incurred in carrying out the provisions of subsections one and two of this section shall be defrayed out of moneys provided by parliament.

In my view both words should be included. I may be wrong, and I am asking for information on the point.

I shall discuss other points when we reach later sections.

Replying to the question asked by the hon. member for Grey North, may I point out that article XIV reads:

The conference may approve arrangements placing other public international organizations dealing with questions relating to food and agriculture under the general authority of the organization on such terms as may be agreed with the competent authorities of the organization concerned.

I am just giving my own opinion on the matter, but I would think that any decision

97S

United Nations Food Agreement

that is made would have no influence whatsoever upon or relate to any decision that might be made in connection with such matters as preferences. This is simply an arrangement whereby this organization can work in cooperation with other organizations, all of which come under the general council, as I understand it, as set up at San Francisco.

Mr. CASE:

The minister says "as I understand it," but is there any absolute authority for his view? We are going to pass something which will delegate to them the power to do as they see fit, but subject to certain limitations.

Mr. GARDINER:

I read it very carefully and I did not see anything in the article which would give any such authority over this organization.

Mr. FLEMING:

In view of the fact that the amendments agreed to last night propose the addition of a further subsection., I suggest that the minister read the subsection so that the committee may have the complete proposed section before it.

Mr. GARDINER:

Subsection 2 of the old section becomes subsection 3, and then there will be a subsection 4, which reads:

Any order in council made under this act shall be forthwith published in the Canada Gazette and laid before parliament as soon as may be after it is made.

Mr. LOW:

I think this is just as good a place as any to follow up what I said yesterday I might do, namely, ask for answers to certain questions. It is well known to hon. members that the delegation which went from this parliament to San Francisco did not include a member of this group. That being so we are somewhat in the dark as to the whole mechanism of the specialized agencies and so on that were discussed at the San Francisco conference.

I indicated yesterday that I was in sympathy with the two objectives that are. set out in this measure, first, to see to it that Canada's house is set in order as a nation, and, second, to put ourselves in such a position as to be of the greatest assistance in the furnishing of food or whatever we can produce in this country to help the war ravaged and worthy nations to rehabilitate themselves and to raise the standard of living of their peoples. I am in sympathy with those two objectives. I want it known definitely that we are not opposed to helping as far as we can these other nations, to reaching out the hand of brotherhood to them; but inasmuch as the Social Credit movement was not represented at the conference I am anxious to settle in my own mind the relationship of this measure

to other international measures which will be before this house and which obviously were discussed at San Francisco.

I did ask certain questions, but in the light of information that has been brought out before the committee since those questions were asked I have reworded some of them and have perhaps deleted others. I am quite sure the minister will not mind answering these questions to-day so far as he is able to do so. I am sincere and earnest in trying to get this information and I do not mean to embarrass him or anyone else.

I think it is vital that the people of this country should know what Canada can do if she becomes a part of this permanent world food and agriculture organization, first, about setting her own house in order that she could not do without becoming a member. I should like to have that question answered, because I am not quite clear that she could do anything more with membership in this organization than she could do without it.

Mr. GARDINER:

I think it is agreed by everyone that thirty nations working in cooperation can do more, for themselves individually, for the whole group of thirty nations and for the world in general, than any one nation can do working by itself. All this bill really does is to make it possible for thirty nations at the present time, and possibly in the end forty-four or forty-five nations, to meet together from time to time-it is presumed they will meet at least once a year-to discuss problems that may arise and endeavour to help one another to work out some solution for problems that relate to food. I do not think any one nation, and particularly Canada with 12,000,000 people only, in a world of nations like China with 450,000,000 people, can do as much by itself as it could working along with thirty other nations.

Mr. LOW:

I do not want to debate the question at this time, except to say that we have a very fine example to the south of us which could be placed before the committee. Hon. members should think about it. There we have a nation of forty-eight states known as the United States of America. Each state is capable of a certain production; they have a great variety of productions, they have tremendous possibilities. They have no trade barriers; they have no restrictions whatever as to the passage of goods from one to the other. They have no tariffs; they have no exchange problems. They are united in purpose, and yet I would remind the minister that those free forty-eight united states, with all their vast possibilities, operating under the present financial system, in close cooperation

United Nations Food Agreement

and collaboration, have failed to achieve a high standard of living for all their peoples. There is no other nation in the world so nearly self-sustaining as those forty-eight states of the United States of America. I fail to see how a united states of the world will assure any greater success in obtaining a higher standard of living for the various peoples of the world than has been achieved by the United States of America, for the people of the various states of that nation, so long as we continue to operate under our present vicious financial set-up.

Mr. LESAGE:

It is clear that they need social credit prophets in the United States.

Mr. LOW. The young man is beginning to understand a little. My second question is this: If Canada does become part of the

permanent world food and agriculture organization, what can she do about assisting other nations to raise their standard of living that she could not do without becoming a member?

Mr. GARDINER:

The answer is not very different from the answer to the first question. She can do far more working in cooperation with them to help other nations than she can by simply operating from Ottawa as a government in order to look after her own interests. These people will meet together, they will discuss these matters cooperatively and then they will make recommendations to us. We will consider those recommendations and act upon them if we see fit, or otherwise. I think we can accomplish more, both for ourselves and for other nations, by acting cooperatively than we can by acting individually, for the same reason that forty-eight states acting cooperatively under the one government can perhaps accomplish more for that great mass of people than they could if they were acting as forty-eight different states.

Mr. LOW:

The Falk Foundation report

states that they expect by July, 1946, to have 20,000,000 unemployed in those forty-eight

states.

Mr. MITCHELL:

Who said it?

Mr. LOW:

The Falk Foundation report. I go to the next point. I should like to ask the question I asked yesterday because it is important to me, and I believe to the people, that we should know. Is this measure before us designed to set up one of the various specialized agencies established by intergovernmental agreement and having wide international responsibility as mentioned in article 57 of chapter 9 of the united nations charter? I have quoted almost the exact wording of article 57.

Mr. GARDINER:

Has the hon. member got -the article there? Will he read it?

Mr. LOW:

I will send and get it, but I have quoted exactly from it. It says: the various specialized agencies established by inter-governmental agreement and having wide international responsibility as mentioned in article 57 of chapter 9 of the united nations charter.

While I am waiting for the text of the article I should like to refer to a statement that was made by the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar last night as recorded at page 969 of Hansard. This is what he said, following a question asked, I think, by the hon. member for Acadia:

What I was wondering was this. I take it that the general international organization is the united nations international organization which was established at San Francisco. Under that charter we have set up the social and economic council, and that social and economic council provides that certain specialized bodies shall be set up, of which it is anticipated this will be one.

That seemed to throw some light on the matter, and because of that statement and the further statement made by the Minister for Justice as recorded on the same page at the bottom of column 1 and the top of column 2, I asked my question. This is what the Minister of Justice said:

... it would appear to me that this organization is being set up now in accordance with the terms of this constitution-

Referring to the constitution in the schedule. It goes on:

-and the united nations charter has not yet come into operation. When it does come into operation it will be dealing with the food and agriculture organization as an entity existing under its own constitution, and then some modifications may have to be made in order to adopt the food and agriculture organization as the specialized agency provided for under the united nations charter.

Those two quotations, one from the member for Rosetown-Biggar and the other from the Minister of Justice, seem to indicate that this is one of the specialized agencies referred to in article 57 of the united nations charter. Would the minister say at this time whether that is so?

Mr. GARDINER:

I think perhaps the Minister of Justice or the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar had better answer that.

Mr. COLDWELL:

It is anticipated, as I said last night, that a number of specialized agencies will be set up. When we were at San Francisco there were several specialized agencies already in existence and recognized by governments. This was one. Another was the international labour organization;

United Nations Food Agreement

another the secretariat of the league of nations on economics and finance. It does not necessarily follow that any of these organizations will be the specialized agency to be brought into relationship with social and economic council. That is a matter for future agreement. But it is anticipated that those inter-governmental agencies that are in existence and have performed a useful function, such as the ones I have mentioned, may become the specialized agencies under the charter. We are not dealing here with the charter of the united nations, but, as the Minister of Justice said last night, with an organization that has its own constitution and is self-governing in every respect, which may or may not come under the social and economic council as the specialized agency. It seems to me that it would be better to leave the united nations charter out of the discussion until we come to deal with it on the resolution now on the order paper.

Mr. ST. LAURENT: So that the hon. member may have no misgivings of there being any possibility of divergence of view between the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar and myself, in view of the fact that we were both at San Francisco, I wish to add that although it was not expressly stated in the charter, all those who discussed with me the terms of article 57 anticipated that this organization would likely become one of the specialized organizations referred to, and article 57 was, by those who talked to me about it, accepted as being something which would enable that to be done if agreement were reached afterwards.

Mr. COLDWELL:

That is right.