Mr. CHEVRIER:

The question which has been raised by the last three hon. members is very broad, in that it has to do with the relocation or the construction of lines all across this country. The one naturally involves the other, because the Department of Transport and the Canadian National Railways have been receiving representations from various communities across the country in connection with branch lines which should be extended or proceeded with, f'hat brings me to a point raised by the hon. member for The Battlefords, namely that the railways should not worry in future about having deficits. That is one thing which I believe must be taken into serious consideration when we decide upon the construction of branch lines. I believe it was the hon. member for Saint John-Albert who the other evening pointed to the fact-and rightly so-that the operating expenses of the Canadian National Railways had gone up considerably in the last year, and he went into some detail in discussing what those expenses were. He said the Canadian National should be extremely cautious in the next few years to make sure that the over-all surplus it has at present is continued. I make that statement not desiring in any way to criticize what has been said to-day, but to point out to the committee that this is a matter which certainly must be taken into consideration when discussing new or abandoned lines of railway.

In reference to the gaps which have been mentioned, namely that between Heinsburg, Alberta, and Frenchman's Butte, Saskatchewan, on the one hand and between Beaver River, Alberta, and St. Walburg, Saskatchewan, on the other, I can say that many representations have been made to the Canadian National Railways and to me urging the completion of these gaps. I have received and read a large number of petitions. Many of them have been brought to me by the hon. member for Athabaska, and I know he has taken a keen interest in these two projects, as have other lion, members. My own view is^ that the gap between Beaver River and St. Walburg is one which deserves serious consideration. So far as the other one is concerned, I can make no statement on it. It is not a fact that it has been reported upon unfavourably by the Canadian National Railways. All I can say in this connection is that it goes through a certain number of Indian reserves where little traffic is anticipated. I

should make this additional statement, that the Canadian National Railways have set up a committee to consider and to review those two lines. They are making surveys, and those surveys are not yet completed. I understand it will be some time before they are completed, and until they have been, I can make no final statement.

Mr. FRASER:

Earlier this morning I had occasion to go to the Canadian National Railways ticket office here in Ottawa. I was dumfounded to see pieces of paint hanging from the ceiling-not one, but a dozen of them, and all of a large size. While I was in there particles of paint or dirt were, dropping from the ceiling. Surely the railway company should not allow that condition to continue. I may say that I looked at the ceiling only once, because I was afraid of getting an eyeful. 1 he workers in the office are working overtime, and I do not think it is fair to them to have this condition continuing year after year. They should not have to work in such dirty surroundings.

Is it the intention of the department to have the Trent canal finished some time in the near future? Plans have been prepared,

I understand, for two locks, and I believe everything is in shape in the minister's office so that the work can proceed. The locks on the Severn river end of the canal should be completed as soon as possible. Now that the war is over the Trent canal will be used by American tourists. Their pleasure boats will come in there; and as the tourist business is one of the greatest we have, we should give it all possible encouragement. If locks were in place rather than the marine railway which now exists, the business on that canal would increase a hundredfold. Small boats numbering two or three thousand passed through the Severn end of the canal in July and August of each year before the war. I hope the minister will see that that section of the canal is completed. During the war years very few motor boats or boats of any other kind, have passed through the canal, owing to the lack of gasoline and also the fact that in many cases the operators of those craft have been away fighting for their country. A condition has developed which, I believe, would not have arisen had those boats been running. In certain lakes weeds have grown up to such an extent that motor boats, even outboard motors, cannot get through. In this respect Rice lake is very bad so far as the landings are concerned. I have my cottage on Stoney lake and, while the condition does not affect me at all, I do know that down at Clark's bay, at the end of concession two, there is a

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landing which is used by more than a hundred cottages. During the last few years the water out from the landing has grown up so badly with weeds that outboard motors and other small craft have found it difficult to get in during the summer months. I went to the minister's department about the matter and was told that they would not clean out the weeds. I suggest that they should be cleaned out, because it is in the interests of Canada to get all the American money we can get. I hope the minister will look into these matters and see what can be done.

Mr. CHEVRIER:

The hon. member has raised three points. He spoke first about the condition of the ceiling in the city ticket office of the Canadian National Railways. I do not know what the position is with respect to that building, whether it is leased or not. If it is a leased building, it would not be the obligation of the railways to do that work.

I shall bring the matter to the attention of my officials.

Mr. FRASER:

Even if it is leased I hope the minister will see that it is cleaned up.

Mr. CHEVRIER:

Mr. FRASER:

That is for maintenance,

is it not?

Mr. CHEVRIER:

Well, it is to provide for work at Buckhorn and' Fenelon Falls, to restore concrete and canal structures, arid to rebuild and repair piers and sills. But so far as the two new locks are concerned, I shall have to ask the superintendent of canals for a statement. I shall be glad to pass along to the hon. member any information I get.

I shall bring to the attention of my officials the matter of cleaning the weeds out so that small motor craft can get through.

Mr. ROSE:

As some hon. members have spoken about railway lines, perhaps I might be permitted to say a feiw words about the merchant marine. I hold in my hand a pamphlet issued by the Minister of Transport in 1945, and in it the minister says:

No body of men has contributed more to the prosecution of the war effort than those gallant seamen who man the ships of the allied merchant navies, and to which Canada's contribution in ships and men has grown from small beginnings to now play a substantial role.

Farther on he says:

Great strides have been taken to build up the man-power for a powerful Canadian merchant marine.

That is -all very well, but will these men be used to build up a powerful merchant marine? Will they -have jobs? Will they have a merchant marine to man? Is Canada to have a merchant marine? I submit the time has arrived for a clear statement of policy from the government regarding this matter.

A few weeks ago the Canadian seamen's union issued a statement to the press in which it; pointed out that in its campaign for a Canadian merchant marine of three hundred ships it has received support from the city and town councils of Quebec City, Montreal, Verdun-, Chatham, Ontario; Strathroy, Ontario; Preston, Ontario; Winnipeg -and Transcona, Manitoba; Lethbridge, Alberta, Prince Rupert, and Kamloops. A government controlled merchant navy is favoured by city and town councils throughout -the country -and other organizations who believe that Canada's prosperity is linked up with a merchant marine. This same press statement quotes the Minister of Transport as having said:

I think we -are gping to have a permanent merchant marine. I don't know if we shall have three hundred ships, but I think we shall have something along that line.

Mr. CHEVRIER:

I will tell the hon. gentleman right now that I made no such statement.

Mr. ROSE:

That is quoted from the press of August 30, but whether or not the minister ' made that statement to the prriss is of no importance to us. We here in the House of Commons believe that we should have a statement regarding government policy.

Mr. DIEFENBAKER:

Mr. Chairman, I did not have an opportunity to speak when the question of continuation of the railway line from Prince Albert through Meadow Lake and on to Lac La Biche was under discussion. I come from the city of Prince Albert, and I want to say that that plan has the support of all the boards of trade in northern and central Saskatchewan. The work should be completed. There are reasons why it was stopped in'1933, but I am not going to enter into any controversy in that regard with the hon. member for Athabaska. Between 1935 and 1939 nothing was done. If the Hudson Bay railway is to be made the instrument it should be in the development of western Canada and Canada in general, this line should be completed, not only for the benefit of the pioneers who settled in those areas believing they would be served by this railway, but also in the interests of better transportation facilities for Saskatchewan and Alberta.

I rose, however, to bring up a matter under the heading of departmental administration,

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namely, the salaries paid to employees of the Department of Transport. Recently, because of the interest taken by the hon. member for Lanark in this matter, information was brought down to the house which showed that of the 130,000 odd employees in the civil service, both permanent and temporary, some 6,000 received what are known as war duties supplements. The other day the hon. member for Victoria, B.C., endeavoured to explain the circumstances under which these supplements were granted. He told us that they had not been granted to all employees of the government who had given themselves so devotedly to the service of this country during the period of the war. The explanation given by the hon. member did not satisfy me, and I think I can speak for many other hon. members and say that it did not satisfy them. It was not a sufficient explanation as to why certain individuals had been picked out while others equally deserving had not been given a war duties supplement.

I should like to get from the minister this information: How many permanent and

temporary employees in his department received war duties supplements? My information is that in certain cases a simple expedient was followed in order to raise salaries which had been frozen, that of reclassifying or seconding employees to other departments or to other types of work within the same department. How many were seconded and how many reclassifications were made in his department? I should like to have a statement as to the basis upon which the decisions were made as to who should be. entitled thereto.

In his explanation the other day, the hon. member for Victoria, B.C., stated that in making these grants there was no question of departure on the part of the government from its stabilization policy with respect to wages. Once it bad been dtecided that war duties supplements were to be made to those who gave unusual and unstinting service to the war effort, they should have been given much more generously than they were. As the matter now stands, anyone who received supplement bonus is placed in a preferred position, while those who did not receive it, but who gave equally good service, feel resentment because they believe they have been discriminated against.

I am not criticizing this policy if it is fairly and properly applied. There are many men and women, in Canada whose wages were frozen at low levels during the war. Why should not the government allow private industry to reward with a Christmas bonus employees who have given extraordinarily

good service? Up to the present time no bonus over $25 is allowed unless it had been given prior to 1941. To permit this to be done would not break down the stabilization plan. It would be in keeping with the stand taken by the government itself in the granting of war duties supplements and would be welcomed by employers and employees alike across this dominion, employees who throughout the period of the war have given of their best and utmost but who have been denied any increases or reward other than the cost of living bonus and Christmas bonuses in the limited scope that I have mentioned.

Only the other day the Financial Post indicated that some new wage policy was to be declared for 1946. A similar declaration has been made in the United States. But whether there is to be a new wage policy or not, I suggest to the minister that he indicate to the Department of Finance that to permit the giving of this extra reward would be just and proper. It would enable private industry to reward employees who have done exceptional work during the war period.

11 should like to refer to the manner in which expense accounts have been increasing in the last few years. While salaries have not been going up, expense accounts have been climbing. On looking over the record of the minister's department I find that the trend is not as definite as it is in some other departments. But when in another department I find living and travelling expenses of $5,507, $7,852, $5,938, and so on, I wonder whether a policy is being followed of allowing expanding expense accounts in place of increases in salaries or other allowances. When I look over the record of some of the medium salaried men, running from $2,600, I find expense accounts from $2,658 up to $4,817. These expense accounts are increasing year by year without any commensurate increase in responsibilities. Is the government condoning large expense accounts as an indirect means of increasing salaries? I should like the minister to deal with that point.

I am not arguing that salaries should not be fair and reasonable. The time has come for a complete revision of the salary schedules. Mention has been made during the last few days of the loss of outstanding men to this dominion, and all of us know that that is true. Only recently I was reading an article by one of the press men, Mr. Hardy, and had occasion to appreciate for the first time just how low some of the salaries of the technical men are. For instance, a man with a bachelor's degree in science and four years' experience is receiving $1,080. Another man with a

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Manitoba degree, a master of science, from Cornwall, with three years' experience, is receiving $1,620; and so it goes, the salaries utterly out of keeping with the responsibilities of the position. Within the last few weeks several outstanding Canadians, three in particular, have left Canada. They were in the government service as scientific men and were receiving .respectively salaries of $4,200, $3,900 and $4,200. Immediately they left the government service their salaries were jumped to $14,000, $15,000 and $8,000. This issue of salaries and reasonable compensation for unusual ability calls for a complete reclassification and a reconsideration of the whole problem of salaries. In addition to making that general plea I am asking particularly about the situation respecting the war duties supplement, and if the minister would be kind enough to make a general statement in this regard it would be appreciated.

Mr. QUELCH:

I should like to say a few words on the branch line from Scapa to Loverna about which I am sure the minister has received petitions. The laying of steel was completed around 1930 and a skeleton line has been maintained from Scapa to Spon-din. Occasionally a freight train is backed into Spondin to take out wheat and bring in coal. But, from Spondin to Hemaruka, the line has not been ballasted. In the early days the steel was laid and a few trains ran in winter, but now the line is in a bad state of repair and no trains are run. From Hemaruka east the line is in repair, and the train goes in there from Loverna once a week. The farmers are under a great handicap. They cannot ship their live stock west to Calgary; it has to go east to Saskatoon, a much longer distance. I agree with my hon. friend that it should not be a question whether it would pay to run trains over that line. The line was built in the first instance and the area settled, and the farmers were given to understand that a railroad service would be given. A few trains are running, but there is no real railway service at all. This matter was brought to the attention of the Minister of Reconstruction and the president of the Canadian National Railways, and I wish to quote a line from the president's reply. He said:

The territory which would^ be served does not appear to be very promising unless irrigation were resorted to.

As the minister knows, there has been a lot of discussion of the Red Deer diversion scheme in the whole of that area. During the last election it was most emphatically promised that the Red Deer diversion scheme would be carried out in the very near future. As a matter of fact many Liberals became so

enthusiastic and optimistic that they stated that the scheme had already been started and . that men were at work on the dam. Unfortunately it was merely a survey party; no work has been started on it. I should like the minister to give the assurance that if the irrigation scheme is carried out, that line will be completed, because with proper irrigation there would be no question at all of there being enough business to support the line. It would be possible to bring another thirty thousand people into that area, which would make all the difference to the traffic carried on that line.

I concur in what the hon. member for Battle River has said regarding the line that ends at Bodo, which is within Alberta. The grade was built from Bodo to Bulwark but the line has never been completed. In that area there is a good deal of business. There is a jjreat deal of live stock raised in that whole area and I do not think the railways could make the same complaint about not having sufficient business to warrant completing the line. If that line w:as completed I think it could be run at a profit without any difficulty.

Mr. GAUTHIER (Portneuf) (Translation):

Mr. Chairman, I hope I shall not transgress the standing orders in making a few remarks on the merchant marine estimates. First, I wish to thank the Minister of Transport for fiis unflagging interest in the settlement of the thorny question that concerns the men who were shipwrecked when the Nereus and the Proteus were lost in 1942. Fifteen young sailors from two communities in my constituency of Portneuf were reported as missing after that disaster. I hope the minister will continue to investigate, as he has done since the beginning, and that he will do everything in his power to settle those cases to the satisfaction of the stricken parents.

I do not wish to discuss at any length the Canadian merchant service. The time is not appropriate and I do not want to prolong the debate. However, may I say to the minister that, if a Canadian merchant service is ever established, it will be able to secure the best sailors and the best pilots in the world without any exception. Speaking especially on behalf of the St. Lawrence river pilots, I urge the minister to give sympathetic consideration to their requests, which in nine cases out of ten are quite reasonable. Let the minister keep in mind that the St. Lawrence River Pilots Association, whose members are on duty between Montreal and Quebec, is a body which, ever since its inception, has never joined in any strike. Ever since pilots have been operating on the St. Lawrence

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river, there has been one strike in the history of the country. And it lasted but one day. In the most critical times, when Canada needed the services of all her citizens, when frequently strikes were breaking out in other sections of the country, the St. Lawrence river pilots, operating from Montreal to Quebec City, have remained at their post. Sometimes there arose problems which were rather difficult to settle, but always, through the intervention of the Dominion ministers, a satisfactory solution wras arrived at. I wish to thank the various ministers who at one time or another have headed the Marine or Transport Department.

I also deem it my duty to pay tribute to the St. Lawrence river pilots for their good work and the public-spiritedness they have shown throughout the history of our country. Therefore, I again urge the hon. minister to consider their requests favourably, even if they relate to pilotage dues. They have the right to bring up the matter of pilotage dues, because the dues charged by the St. Lawrence river pilots are the lowest in the world. They carry out their work on a river where navigation is very difficult, especially in the section between Quebec City and Montreal, where the channel is quite hazardous even it it has been improved by the department. Further, the distance they cover is' the longest. Frequently pilots' on duty between Quebec City and Montreal remain at their post for twenty, twenty-two and sometimes twenty-four hours, with little or no sleep, facing fog or storms without ever sitting down. Some say this is normal because they are sailors to the core. Ours are the best sailors in the world, and from the moment a young Canadian, whether he is of French or English descent, has gone to sea, he faces storms and gales with a smile on his lips. If ever one has deserved to be called an "old salt" it is the Canadian sailor.

I, therefore, ask the hon. minister to always consider favourably the requests of the Canadian pilots and sailors, and I wish to thank him once more for the interest he has shown to the grief-stricken families of the fifteen sailors from my constituency who have perished at sea during the war.

(Text)

Mr. CHEVRIER:

The hon. member for Cartier asked if Canada would have a merchant marine in the post-war period, and requested a statement of government policy. I wish the hon. gentleman were in his seat now. Unfortunately I am not able to tell him what the government policy is with reference to the merchant navy. I can tell him this, however, that for the last twelve months and longer the matter has been under consideration, an interdepartmental commit-

tee has been set up to report- to the government on the subject matter, but until such time as the united maritime agreement has come to an end I doubt whether there would be anything to be gained by making a public pronouncement on this important subject. Shipping is still pooled, and will be for some months to come. I believe the pooling agreement ends early in March. Again, the matter is one which affects not only the Department of Transport but several other departments. Hon. members listened, I am sure, to the statement which the Minister of Reconstruction made on this whole subject; I believe he covered it very well, and I am prepared to leave it at that for the moment.

The hon. member for Lake Centre raised several questions, some particularly with reference to the salaries of officials of the Department of Transport and other departments. Of course I can speak only for my own department. I am informed that, with reference to war duties supplements, the procedure is for the department to recommend to the civil service commission that one or more employees should under the circumstances be entitled to a war duties supplement; the civil service commission make an investigation and decide whether the recommendation made by the Department of Transport is warranted and whether the supplement should be awarded. It then goes to treasury board, and treasury board must finally approve. I am informed that so far as the Department of Transport is concerned every recommendation for a war duties supplement which it was possible to make, was made, and I further understand that the majority of those going forward have been awarded. The hon. gentleman asked for a statement of them. I have not such a statement here, but I shall be prepared to give it to him later.

With reference to travelling expenses, the hon. gentleman read from a pamphlet or a memorandum of some kind, and I do not know whether he was referring to the travelling expenses of the Department of Transport-

Mr. DIEFENBAKER:

No, I specifically said that, that these were much lower.

Mr. CHEVRIER:

I thank the hon. gentleman for that, because I think the travelling expenses of the Department of Transport have gone down rather than gone up; in fact they have gone down substantially this year from the amount last year.

Speaking generally, so far as salaries go- and the same statement was made by the Minister of Reconstruction when, I think, he was asked a similar question-these salaries for technical and professional men are under review.

Income War Tax

(Translation): Mr. Chairman, the hon.

member for Portneuf had the kindness, a few moments ago, to compliment the Minister of Transport for his interest in the pilots and the merchant marine, and to thank him for the work he has done in connection with the sailors from the Nereus and the Proteus, two ships which were lost at sea during the war years. I can tell the hon. member that I shall note his remarks and that my officials will do everything in their power to obtain further details concerning the fate of the sailors from these two ships. I also- wish to assure him that the pilots in whom he is so much interested will always have our sympathetic consideration.

(Text)

Mr. HODGSON:

I want to say a word to the minister-it will take only a minute- following up what the hon. member for Peterborough West has said. All along the Trent waterways system has grown up a great tourist industry. There is plenty of room for further development. I thank the minister for the new gates which are going on at Fenelon Falls lock. A repair job there was very necessary. While his men are working up there, I might point out that some mud has accumulated in years gone by from a saw mill at the mouth of the canal where it goes into Cameron lake. If that mud were taken off by a sucker, we would have a wonderful sand beach and it would be a splendid place for tourists. There is also a repair job to be done on the dock at Coboconk and other places along the canal system where it empties into Balsam lake. Quantities of rock and mud have piled up on the sides of the canal, and if it could be levelled down, the place could be made a beauty spot. There is in fact a considerable amount of beautification which could be done along this waterways Astern with the help of the department. I should be glad to go into these matters in detail in the minister's office at any time, or to take it up through the departmental engineer at Peterborough, Mr. Ryan. I might say here that Mr. Ryan has given me the very best of cooperation in any business I have had with him since he became the official located at that particular point. I repeat, Mr. Chairman, that any information that I can give the minister in detail I shall be glad to give him.

Mr. CHEVRIER:

I can tell the hon. gentleman that my officers will cooperate with him at any time and give him the information he requires. [DOT] i

Mr. HODGSON:

Thank you.

Progress reported.

At one o'clock the house took recess.

The house resumed at three o'clock.