Mr. QUELCH:

I agree with the minister that an export market is very important, and the minister could very easily reassure me and other hon. members if he would guarantee that in the future, whilst we now have a great interest in the export market, we are nevertheless going to look upon it as our major obligation to see that the home market is developed to its full extent. Will the minister guarantee that in the future all the people of Canada will be able to buy all the commodities that we produce, export the surpluses and bring back other goods in exchange? If the minister could do that we would be satisfied. The minister knows very well that that has not been the policy of Canada in the past.

During the depression years, from 1935 to 1939, we had on the average a favourable balance of trade of 8219 millions a year, in spite of the fact that one million people were on relief, in spite of the fact that there would have been a strong demand for the imports that could have been brought back to this country in return for the 8219 millions of foreign exchange. The minister may say that we had a foreign debt, but at the same time we were only maintaining production at about fifty per cent of our capacity. We could have expanded that production to the full extent, met our foreign obligations and increased the standard of living of our people by several hundred million dollars. Now if the minister is going to guarantee that in future that will not be the policy of this country, that in future we are going to maintain and develop the resources of this country and see that the people get the amount of consumer goods they desire before any are shipped abroad to build up foreign investments-if the minister will give that assurance to the committee we shall be much easier in our minds.

Mr. ILSLEY:

The whole purpose of the policy is to maintain as high a standard of living for the people as possible.

Mr. MacINNIS:

I think most of this discussion, Mr. Chairman, is purely academic. I do not believe the minister is in a position to give an undertaking that in future the resources of this country will be developed and used to the greatest possible extent for the benefit of the Canadian people; but I believe the people of this country as a whole are in a position to put a government in power that will do that very thing.

My view of the loan is that it helps a world expansionist programme, and for that reason I believe it should be supported. We

Loan to United Kingdom

are still in an international crisis. If we were to adopt an isolationist policy and try to make ourselves self-sufficient within this country, in a way I believe we could assure ourselves a basic standard of living; but I do not think that for a long time we could assure ourselves of as high a standard of living as we can if we are prepared now to accept a lower standard in order to build up the economy of other countries which are in a less fortunate position. As I said in my few remarks the other evening, from my point of view the whole purpose of this loan is to help Great Britain, which is in such a strategic position at the present time if only she is strong enough to assert that position, to build up her economy; and I am satisfied that in future it will help us in this country also to attain a higher standard of living. I see no reason in the world why we,should prolong this debate unles some of us are to take the position that we intend to oppose this loan to the very limit. Well, the quickest way to do that is to let the bill come to a division. Those who are against it can oppose it; those who are in favour of it can support it, and then let it go on its merits. We are not serving any useful purpose by all this debate, and in saying this I am not reflecting at all upon the ability of the hon. member for Temiscouata to deal very capably with these matters. But I say we are not serving any useful purpose by continuing this discussion beyond the stage it has now reached.

Mr. POULIOT:

My purpose is not at all to delay the adoption of the measure but to inform the house and even inform the minister. The Minister of Finance has said the United Kingdom is our best customer. I hold in my hand a booklet written by Sir Norman Angell and distributed by the United Kingdom information service some years ago. The question is asked, "From whom does the empire buy?" In reply it is stated that in 1938 or 1938-39 Canada bought 17-5 per cent from the United Kingdom and 82-5 per cent from the rest of the world. The next question asked is, "To whom does the empire sell?" The answer is that in 1938 or 1938-39 Canada sold 39-1 per cent to the United Kingdom and 60-9 per cent to the rest of the world.

To different countries.

Mr. POULIOT:

Surely, to different

countries; but now the United Kingdom is described as the only market for Canada.

Oh, no.

Mr. POULIOT:

Oh, yes; by the minister; and I will tell the hon. member for Acadia why I say that. The hon, gentleman spoke

only of our trade with the United Kingdom, and the minister spoke of economic nationalism. I know the idea in the mind of the hon. member for Acadia.

Mr. QUELCH:

If the hon. gentleman does not mind my interrupting, the only reason I referred to Great Britain is that this loan is to Great Britain. If the loan had been to some other country I would have mentioned that country.

Mr. POULIOT:

Exactly. I would do the same. I am not complaining about the hon. member for Acadia; at present I am in agreement with him, but the hon. member referred to our trade with the United Kingdom and the minister shouted "economic nationalism," just as though there were only one road'for our goods to travel, that is, the Atlantic ocean east to London. I do not blame the hon. gentleman. I blame the minister, and I blame him for the confusion he displayed in presenting the measure. It took me thirteen or fifteen hours to try to undertsand something in his speech of April 11. Everything was mixed up. Was it deliberate or not? I don't know. I do not like to speak like that, but I was offended when the minister spoke of economic nationalism. We believe Canada is a great country; and it is not a great country only in the mouth of the Prime Minister or the Minister of Finance. It is a great country in fact. The answers the minister gave me the other day were answers to play with. It was not serious. For instance, I asked about the loan to the Netherlands East Indies, amounting to v $15,000,000, which was later promised to be increased to $$0,000,000. Was it promised to Malcolm MacDonald in order to give him an opportunity to be appointed governor general of that part of the world? We are lending $50,000,000 to a country with which we will have no trade whatever. Last year I denounced Malcolm MacDonald at the same time that I denounced Lord Halifax and I give Mr. Attlee credit for having removed both of them from America.

Mr. ILSLEY:

He is not governor general of the Netherlands East Indies.

Mr. POULIOT:

He is governor general of Malaya or somewhere out there, and the Sarawak white district is under his jurisdiction now. He is to be far away, and I am glad of it; it is a good thing for Canada that he is far away. By the way, with whom did the minister negotiate? He said he negotiated the loan to the Netherlands East Indies with a representative of the government of that part of the world. He was fortunate, because when the discussion took place there was no government there. With whom was he negotiating?

Loan to United Kingdom

There was no government; there was civil war in that country. Did he negotiate with one side or the other? Who was it, and for whom was he acting?

Mr. ILSLEY:

The man who came here was Doctor Crena de Iongh, representing the government of the Netherlands East Indies and also the bank of the Netherlands East Indies.

Mr. POULIOT:

He represented the bank, so now we are in international finance. Then to whom was the promise made of $50,000,000 in addition?

Carried.

The CHAIRMAN:

Shall the section carry?

Mr. ROULIOT:

No.

Mr. ILSLEY:

It was made to the government and the bank of the Netherlands East Indies.

Mr. POULIOT:

W'hat is the guarantee for Canada for that loan and that promise?

Mr. ILSLEY:

What does the hon. gentleman mean by a guarantee?