Hon. HUMPHREY MITCHELL (Minister of Labour):

I understand an hon. gentleman is going to move the adjournment of the house to discuss another matter, so I thought I had better get in first. The hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) sent me notice of a question in reference to the movement of six hundred men into Cornwall, and I think I should answer immediately because this does affect the situation to a great extent. Immediately I read that statement in the newspapers I got in touch with the operators, from whom I received a telegram. I think it would be better to read this telegram, and also a telegram I have received from the union. This is the telegram from the operators:

Referring to newspaper reports of to-day and with reference to our telephone conversation of this morning ship owners say that no arrangements have been made for a mass movement of men into Cornwall. They say that they have available at least six hundred men many of whom are returned men ready to man their ships ahd that any attempt to man any vessel or vessels will only be made after full and proper notice to the proper police authorities and in full cooperation with them. Meantime strikers are pursuing their acts of lawlessness tile latest of which was the attack on the steamer Birchton last night in the Soulanges canal, when they seriously injured the cook, smashed up the galley throwing the galley stove overboard and committed other acts of vandalism. Also strikers last night forcibly removed the crews of the steamers Houson, Stewart, Richards, Maple-heath, (i ra in m of or and Kinmount while they were lying peacefully at dominion government property at Coteau.

(Signed) George R. Donovan, Secretary, Dominion Marine Association.

I also received, in reference to the same matter, the following telegram from Mr. J. A. Sullivan of the Canadian seamen's union: View with alarm press release from ship owners in Montreal in which they state that they have organized and are prepared to move into the city of Cornwall six hundred thugs. They quote in their statement that they intend to get the ships out of Cornwall with or without the aid of the authorities. Such open defiance must be checked. They have accused this organization of violence but with their own words they have proven that they are the lawless ones. Surely it is time for the government *to act in stopping such a procedure.

I have read these telegrams, Mr. Speaker, to give my hon. friend and this house some indication of where the Minister of Labour sometimes sits in these disputes.

Mr. COLDWELL:

What a hot spot!

Mr. MITCHELL:

I have always taken the view-although sometimes my hon. friend has accused me of sitting on the fence; in this instance I would say it is a hot stove-that it is wise to be a conciliator. I suppose I have been chairman of more commissions on labour disputes than any other labour man in this country-. To be successful, one cannot take sides. He has to bring the parties together. I thought I had done that this week-until this press story this morning, and the incident which took place yesterday on the St. Lawrence.

I told the union and the employers that I thought this carry-on or attitude by both sides was unwise. In my judgment it was stupid- and I say that to both sides. Sooner or later the dispute will be settled; it will have to be settled. Unless there is cooperation of both parties to the dispute, whoever presides over that dispute -has an almost impossible task. I hope even at this late date that both sides will act like grown-up men, instead of children on a sand lot.

Mr. G. A. CRUICKSHANK (Fraser Valley):

Mr. Speaker, I ask leave to move the adjournment of the house under standing order 31 for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, namely, the immediate threat of wastage of the current crop of small fruits, tree fruits, vegetables, butter and egg production and the fish pack in the province of British Columbia, because of the lack of necessary wooden or wood product containers.

Mr. SPEAKER:

Standing order 31 states, in part:

(2) The member desiring to make such a motion rises in his place, asks leave to move the adjournment of the house for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, and states the matter.

(3) He then hands a written statement of the matter proposed to be discussed to Mr. Speaker, *who, if he thinks it in order, and of urgent public importance, reads it out and asks whether the member .has the leave of the house. If objection is taken, Mr. Speaker requests those members who support the motion to rise in their places and. if more than twenty members rise accordingly, Mr. Speaker calls upon the member who has asked for leave.

(4) If less than twenty, but not less than five, members rise in their places, the question whether the member has leave to move the adjournment of the house shall be put forthwith, without debate, and determined, if necessary, by a division.

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Inasmuch as the motion has been presented at the proper time, and I regard it as a matter of urgent public importance, I consider it in order. If no objection is taken, the hon. member for Fraser Valley has the floor.

And leave having been granted:

Mr. CRUICKSHANK:

Mr. Speaker, I asked for the adjournment of the house to discuss a matter of national urgency, namely the immediate threat of wastage of the current crop of small fruits, tree fruits, vegetables, butter and egg production and the fish pack in British Columbia because of the lack of the necessary wood and wood product containers. I do so because I believe the matter is not merely of immediate national urgency, but that it is of international urgency.

The pack is threatened with extensive wastage because of the lack of wood and wood product containers to collect and transport it. This shortage, while brought to a head by the current lumber strike, was very serious long before the strike occurred. Because of the extreme shortage of lumber, few barrels, crates or hallocks have been produced this spring, because the lumbermen found it more profitable to convert their logs into building lumber than into boxes at the current ceiling prices. This situation got so bad that on April 30, Donald Gordon gave the box manufacturers an open permit to manufacture the necessary containers, the British Columbia fruit crop alone requiring 30,000 barrels, 16,000,000 boxes, 200,000 crates and 5,000,000 hallocks. But slight production had followed when the lumber strike closed all box factories.

The first small fruits are now ripening in the fields, and I now quote a wire I have received from the president of the British Columbia branch of the Canadian Federation of. Agriculture, dated May 20. It states:

Vernon, B.C., May 20, 1946. G. A. Cruickshank, M.P.,

Ottawa, Ontario.

Unless manufacture of berry crates, processing barrels, egg eases and vegetable crates is renewed immediately heavy losses to growers, processors, distributors and employees in these departments are inevitable. ' Harvesting of berries starts in about fortnight and if containers are not ready large part of heavy and valuable berry crop will be left in fields to rot. Not only domestic fresh market supplies affected but export of processed berries for Britain. Eggs for Britain from Fraser Valley affected and also vegetables from Fraser Valley Vancouver Island and interior. Urge your interest and assistance towards settlement ensuring resumption mills and woods operations. Tree fruits crop of record proportions from Kamloops through Okanagan and east to Creston in prospect and every day mills are idle means loss of boxes that cannot be made up during balance of season. Our federation confirms and supports vigorously representations of British

Columbia coast growers association, Pacific coast poultry producers association and British Columbia fruit growers association. Our federation would value message from you regarding this crisis.

P. E. French,

President, B.C. Federation of Agriculture.

In the house for the past two months the greatest emphasis has been laid by all parties on food production, because of shortage in Canada and' starvation abroad. In view of the immediate threat of wastage of the tremendous British Columbia crop of perishable foodstuffs, I should be derelict in my duty as a member of parliament if I did not rnoVe the adjournment of the house so that public attention may be directed to this grave situation. .

My colleagues from British Columbia are equally concerned over the emergency. I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for permitting this motion for adjournment. I shall be as direct and as brief as possible in anything I shall have to say. Perhaps hon. members will excuse me if, for once, I stick closely to my notes, for I wish to present the plight of the food producers and my proposed solution in as clear a manner as possible.

It is often said, sir, that the entire economy of British Columbia is dependent on the lumber industry, and that this is true even of agriculture and fisheries, for the great bulk of our pack in small fruits, tree fruits, vegetables, eggs, butter, and fish, is collected, packed and marketed both at home and abroad in wooden containers, whether they be barrels, crates, or hallocks. In wartime our producers have not only had great difficulty in getting farm labour to cultivate the crops, but, because of shortages in the lumber industry, each year they have found it more and more difficult to obtain the containers in which to pack and ship them.

Normally a great deal of the production is done in the winter time, so that an adequate stock is available at the beginning of the picking season, and during the packing season the box factories produce a maximum output which in the past has barely sufficed to save the crop. This past winter, however, the ceiling price on these containers was so low in comparison with the price for construction lumber that most of the manufacturers chose to turn out lumber instead of boxes. A grave situation developed, and as long ago as March 19, again on April 8, and again on April 24, I wrote to the wartime prices and trade board and the government, pointing out that unless box manufacturers were in full production we would have tremendous waste of food in the summer. I should like to

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quote one paragraph from Donald Gordon's letter in reply to my representations. It reads:

In view of the shortness of time remaining before berry baskets will be required in the British Columbia area, that manufacturers be permitted to sell on the basis of invoices open as to price.

I should like to repeat two things mentioned in that letter. Mr. Gordon gives as the reason for allowing a breach of the price ceiling on containers "the shortness of time remaining before berry baskets will be required in the British Columbia area." That was written on April 30, and it is now June 7. The fruit is ripe and is being shipped, and there are only a few containers available. In the next few weeks thousands of tons of f^uit will ripen and there will be no containers at all. The production of containers, which began after April 30, ended completely with the general strike in the timber industry in British Columbia which began on May 17. We *would have had a grave shortage even had the timber strike not occurred, because of the events I have related; but the timber strike was a calamity. The irony of it is that this year in Britsh Columbia we are having a record fruit crop. An announcement in the Vancouver Province of last week stated that the Fraser Valley crop was estimated to be one-third greater than any previous crop and that employment services were trying to induce women to come from the prairie provinces to help harvest the crop. The same is true for Vancouver island and [DOT] the Kootenays.

I should like to quote a telegram received from the president of the British Columbia coast growers' association, which represents all the berry growers' associations of the lower mainland and Vancouver island. It is signed also by the president of the Pacific coast poultry producers' association. In case any hon. member thinks I am speaking without authority on behalf of the berry growers of the lower mainland and Vancouver island, I should like to give a list of the associations that make up the British Columbia coast growers' association. They are as follows:

Associated Berry Growers Cooperative Exchange, Hatzic; Pacific Cooperative Union, Mission; Fraser Valley Growers Limited, Mission; Central Fruit Distributors Limited, Mission; Maple Ridge Cooperative Exchange, Haney; South Fraser Cooperative Union, New Westminster; South Port Mann Berry Growers Association, South Port Mann; Coastal Growers Cooperative Association, Richmond; Richmond Berry Growers Association, Steveston; Surrey Berry Growers Association, Surrey district; Strawberry Hill Berry Growers Association, South New Westminster; Mt. Lehman, Dennison, Bradner Berry Growers Association, Mount Lehman; Yarrow Growers Cooperative (Mr. Cruickshank.]

Union, Yarrow; Dewdney Rhubarb Growers Cooperative Association, Dewdney; Saanich Fruit Growers Cooperative Association, Saanich; Gordon Head Fruit Growers Cooperative Association, Saanich; Vancouver Island Cooperative Fruit Growers Association, Saa-nichton. .

The last three associations are on Vancouver island. I mention those associations because it has been assumed by some, perhaps with the best intentions but certainly without any knowledge or information, that we are not actually short of containers. The wires that I have quoted and those that I will quote later on show that I represent people who know the container situation in British Columbia. I am sorry to take so much time, but I think this matter is of vital importance. The telegram reads:

Berry growers and poultry men of this Fraser valley fearful of the effect shortage of berry crates and egg eases will have on their industry. On their behalf we would request your department to endeavour to bring about an early settlement of the lumber strike. Supply of crates and barrels on hand only sufficient for a few days operation and season starts in two weeks. Local associations met with union representatives to-day and try and solve our problems but additional help needed.

The only possible solution for this situation is to get the box factories going immediately on twenty-four hour production. The end of the timber strike would of course achieve this end. As I told the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell) some time ago, I had a proposal which I think would end the strike. I refrained from introducing this proposal because deliberations were being carried on under Chief Justice Sloan, and I did not want to do anything that might interfere with the final solution of the strike.

I want to emphasize the fact that I am not talking about the lumber strike to-day. I am speaking on behalf of the important berry growers of the province of British Columbia, and other hon. members can speak on behalf of the tree fruit growers. I consider it my duty to bring before the house the seriousness of the situation. The only thing I want to say about the lumber strike at this time is that the loggers are "not striking against the farmers and fishermen of British Columbia. They are not striking to sabotage food production in British Columbia. They are not striking to deprive veterans of lumber to build homes. They Sre producers just the same as the farmers and fishermen are producers. Many of them are veterans and it is not their desire to injure their fellow workers.

As I said before, I am not taking sides one way or another, I am simply pointing out what I believe to be the true facts. These men are striking against the logging and saw

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mill operators for higher wages, shorter hours and union security. They have shown they are not striking against the veterans by permitting lumber to pass through the picket line if used for veterans' buildings. They have shown that they are not striking against the farmers by returning to work without prejudice in the small box factory in Creston in the Kootenays, where the situation was most grave.

It has been suggested that I am overestimating the seriousness of the shortage of berry crates and barrels in British Columbia, and particularly in the Fraser Valley. It has been suggested by certain officials here, possibly in good faith but certainly without any knowledge of the facts, that the situation is not as serious as some of us say it is. I should like to quote one or two telegrams. The last one I received over the telephone just before I came to the house to-day. These serve to strengthen the stand I am taking. The first one reads:

Lumber strike preventing Sweeney Cooperage, Vancouver, supplying sufficient barrels for rasp-perry crop. Krause has only 2,000 barrels on hand, needs 10,000.

I am told by some that there are containers in sufficient quantity, but here is one concern in my riding which requires 10,000 barrels and has only 2,000 on hand. Shipping of the crop is just starting. These people know what they are talking about. I have another telegram from four large shippers of berries, both cooperatives and independent. These people know their business, and this is what they say in a telegram dated June 4:

IWA strike called over two weeks ago has resulted in absolute deadlock of cooperage operations causing acute barrel shortage. These barrels absolutely necessary for packing thousands of tons berries definitely confirmed for the United Kingdom. Loss of this business through lack of barrels will cost berry growers of the Fraser Valley one million dollars. Loss to the United Kingdom food ministry cannot be considered in monetary value alone but will result in untold loss of food stocks absolutely necessary to Great Britain. Suggest every effort be made to have cooperage operations resumed to full capacity immediately pending settlement between labour unions and industry so that barrel manufacture can begin at once as every hour of delay means untold loss to the berry industry and to millions who are depending upon these food supplies.

Pacific cooperative union Yarrow growers association Fraser Valley growers limited Central fruit distributors.

The British Columbia federation of agriculture wrote to me under date of May 30, and I should like to quote one paragraph as follows:

It is a hard road for the berry, tree fruit and vegetable industries of British Columbia and whether even in the event of an early settlement, growers can catch up with container needs, is doubtful.

I should like to quote briefly from the Chilliwack Progress, probably the largest weekly newspaper in British Columbia, published in the berry growing district. In the issue of May 29 they state:

With some strawberries already being picked and the main crop expected to start appearing on the market next week, the picture looks dismal for the growers in the district if the strike tie-up continues to hold up the box factories, berry officials report.

I could go on quoting, but I just want to emphasize the seriousness of the situation. I am told by some without the necessary knowledge that there are containers on hand. I admit frankly that strawberries are being shipped out of the Fraser Valley to-day, not by the crate but in carload lots.

Then there is the raspberry crop. I have referred to there being 2.000 barrels on hand, .and there is an estimated crop of 10,000 barrels. That means that we shall have to divert our raspberry crates to care for the strawberry crop. .

I can quote Donald Gordon, whose name is known to a few' hon. members, in confirmation of what I say, speaking under date of April 30.

We know' that the government cannot do the impossible, and we cannot expect crates or barrels to be produced over-night. The farmers are reasonable and know that that cannot be done. It may not be known to some hon. members that the only farm produce that I know of in Canada which has not been allow'ed to maintain its market is the small fruits. We have never been allowed to ship to the United States; our fruit has been allocated to eastern markets and to Great Britain. We have no particular quarrel with that, although we want to maintain our markets.

I want to make a suggestion to the government. There is one possible way of meeting the shortage of containers now. We are in a position to sell our fruits to the United States, and they will supply the containers if we are granted an export permit. But naturally the Americans must know to-day if they can receive our fruit-I am speaking of the raspberry crop-so that they can make their arrangements to send up the containers. We have plenty of containers to-day but the officials overlook the fact that the present expectations are for a very large crop of raspberries this year. .If wTe are to be granted an export permit to ship to the United States it must be done immediately so that the

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Americans can make their arrangements for sending the crates and barrels in bond and taking the fruit back to the United States, thus saving the crop.

I have a quotation here from a man who is particularly well known to the Minister of Agriculture. I know it will be said that fruit . is not the most essential food. I have never been accused in this house of having any love or particular admiration for any adult enemies of this country, but I do not think any member of this house has the right to sit quiet when food is being wasted while children in Europe and elsewhere are starving. There was a meeting in London recently of the International Federation of Agricultural Producers, and some prominent agriculturists were over there, at the expense either of their own organization or of the government. I quote what Mr. J. H. Wesson, of the wheat pools, Regina, said:

Mr. J. H. Wesson, of the wheat pools. Regina, suggested three principles which should guide future food policies in all countries-that to destroy food was nothing short of vandalism; that restriction of production of necessary food was socially immoral; that when food was produced and not distributed to those needing it there was evident incompetent statesmanship between countries with too much and those with too little.

I do not want to take sides in the lumber strike, but in passing I may say that I am the only member of parliament elected from British Columbia who was endorsed by the organized loggers' union, I.W.A., at the last election. I represent the berry growers of British Columbia, and can claim some right also to represent the loggers because I had their endorsation at the last election. I say that neither the union nor the operators can find any justification for food being wasted while people are starving in Europe or anywhere else. But above all, the one body that has absolutely no right to allow food to be wasted at this time is the parliament of Canada.

I think I have indicated the opinions of the producers, either cooperatives or independent, of small fruits in British Columbia. I have also quoted a wire from the federation of the Okanagan. These people know whether or not there is a shortage of containers.

My suggestion to the government and to the Minister of Labour, if you like-perhaps not the Minister of Labour, after what I have said of the duty of employers and unions- is this: It is the duty of the Acting Prime Minister to put in a controller in the box factories in British Columbia to-morrow.

_ Hon. GROTE STIRLING (Yale): Mr. Speaker, I am very glad that the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) has brought this matter to the attention of the house, and I congratulate him on the very thorough way in which he has presented the views and the needs of those he represents. He has dealt with the berry production of the Fraser valley as well as that of the lower mainland. The containers required for that crop are largely barrels. I want to add a few words from the point of view of the production of fruit and vegetables in the southern part of British Columbia.

When this strike started on the 15th of May the Minister of Labour (Mr. Mitchell), making a statement in this house, said:

. The dispute is one which comes within provincial authority.

Two days later the minister of labour for British Columbia, writing to the Kelowna Sawmills, made this statement:

Dealing with the persons responsible for this is the responsibility of the Minister of Labour for Canada.

So that once more we have the statement made here that it is a provincial affair, and in Victoria that it is a dominion affair.

Later, on another occasion, the Minister of Labour referred to the fact that any decision arrived at, after a conciliation board had sat, would have to be referred to the regional war labour board. That is a board set up under the .dominion government; there can be no question about that. And the matters being dealt with-food, prices and wages-are matters which come under the control of the dominion government. It seems to me without any question that the authority lies with the dominion government to enter this dispute and to produce a settlement. The minister, on the day of the beginning of the strike, proceeded-Hansard, page 1549:

Notification was publicized that a strike would occur to-day, and as there was evidence that the negotiations were breaking down, the Hon. George S. Pearson, Minister of Labour for British Columbia, consulted with me in the matter and recommended the appointment of a special commissioner.

He related how he had appointed Chief Justice Sloan to be an industrial disputes inquiry commission. Later, the minister goes on:

I have not had a report from Chief Justice Sloan. However, the information received by me by telephone early this morning from the British Columbia minister of labour is to the effect that at the meeting held by the chief justice yesterday the negotiations came to an end because those representing the union took the position that the strike was going to take place at eleven o'clock this morning.

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That brought that conciliation effort to a standstill. The operators could not see what good could result from profceeding with the discussion when the strike was on.

Then the Minister of Finance (Mr. Usley) made a most earnest appeal to both parties to this dispute; and I must say that I was hopeful that both the disputants would take it to heart and a settlement would be arrived at. For when a minister of finance, speaking for the dominion government, makes such an apppal to disputants, it appears to me he would likely receive the support of the general public, and it has often been pointed out that no strike can last very long if it has not the support of the general public. However, the Minister of Labour on May 29 had to come to the house and give the replies which he had received from the disputants, and he read a statement from the Interior Lumber Association. from which I want to quote a word or two-Hansard, page 1986:

Negotiations on behalf of the owners have been conducted by Mr. J. H. Ruddock, industrial relations officer, Interior British Columbia Lumber and Box Manufacturers Association.

Then followed a long wire, at the end of which appear these words:

Furthermore present strike in largest box producing plant in interior British Columbia called in face of valid agreement which that plant has with Canadian Congress of Labour and which agreement has never been terminated either by C.C.L. or I.W.A. Under all circumstances in fairness to all concerned and particularly to avoid heavy loss to growers we again urge instructions be given for unconditional resumption operations leaving result to legal processes of conciliation and arbitration.

Again and again, to both parties to the dispute, the suggestion has been made, backing up the appeal of the Minister of Finance, that for the sake of food, for the sake of saving destructible food, the dispute should end and the matters in dispute should be subsequently settled.

At the very beginning of the strike I received a telegram from the president of the British Columbia Fruit Growers Association which I want to put on the record. It is dated the 18th, and the house will remember that the strike began on the 15th:

Tree fruit industry of British Columbia facing grave crisis through strike of International Woodworkers Association which has closed down all box mills in interior and thus shut off supplies of shook. Record crops of tree fruits in prospect. Every day's stoppage of mills means many thousands of containers will not be available. Only by operating at full capacity every day until end of season can needs be met. Only small proportion of season's requirements now supplied and consequently enormous losses impend unless mills resume operations immediately.

My understanding is that there is in sight a $20 million crop of fruits and vegetables in the southern interior of British Columbia, not including the area for which the hon. member for Fraser Valley speaks. The packing of early cherries began a few days ago at Osoyoos and Oliver, at the southern end of the Okanagan valley. I understand there is shook in sight which perhaps will take care of the cherries and a portion of the apricots, but there is no shook in sight at all for everything that follows-peaches, pears, plums, prunes, apples.

Now this disastrous dispute is a serious enough question in relation to the housing problem which is common to all Canada, and we must remember that these British Columbia mills send the necessary lumber a good many hundred miles east of the Pacific coast. The delay in the housing situation is a very serious matter, but it is a matter of delay. The lack of shook with which to make boxes and crates to send this perishable crop to market is not a matter merely of delay; it is not delay at all, it is destruction, and that is what makes it such an extremely serious thing today. It is impossible for me to foretell what possibility there will be of scraping together unusual and unexpected containers with which merely to get this stuff to the markets. It is possible that if it could reach the markets it could be taken away in small quantities by other means, paper bags or something of that sort, but that will not help us in the problem of getting the stuff to the market; and, Mr. Speaker, it is destructible stuff we are talking about.

We are being told every day of the need of producing every bit of food that is possible. Our particular international difficulty, true, is in respect of wheat and flour, but if wheat and flour are short, the people must tend to turn to something else. There is no question that vegetables would be the next thing they would turn to, and fruit to the extent that it is a valuable portion of the diet of the ordinary healthy person.

Besides all. that it should be remembered that the area for which I speak has this one industry prominent in its work. Secondary industries have cropped up in support of the main industiy; but it is not only the fruit growers who own this crop which may be destroyed who are in this lamentable difficulty; but it is all the labour they employ, it is all the stores in the town to which people, for lack of money, may not be able to go "and buy their requirements; it is all the people of the interior of British Columbia from the Canadian Pacific main line to the international boundary and. from the Alberta boundary to

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the boundary of the Fraser Valley riding. Not only is it serious from the point of view of the inability to market these fruit and vegetables, but because there will be a shortage of food purchasable by the people themselves.

Hon. J. G. GARDINER (Minister of Agriculture) :

Mr. Speaker, a question was asked yesterday with regard to the matter under discussion as to which some information should be placed early in this debate before members of the house. Full information with regard to the position was not at hand yesterday, but I have considerable of it here at the moment. I think the general situation is best stated in a memorandum which I have in my hand and which I will read to the house.

There are prospects that one of the largest crops on record is maturing in British Columbia at present. Cherries will be ready in about two weeks, followed by peaches, apricots and plums. These are highly perishable fruits. The apple crop is being estimated at eight million boxes. Cherry containers are in fair supply but only about one-third enough boxes for the rest of the crop, and an inadequate supply of barrels for processing. The Okanagan depends mainly on the Okanagan box shook plants for its production. In lower Fraser Valley the deficit in the supply of containers threatens the loss of $1,000,000 worth of fruit for which there are no barrels or crates. One company alone, the Pacific Cooperative in Mission, needs

13.000 barrels for processing small fruits and

45.000 crates for raspberries. The over-all deficit in barrels is estimated at 35,000. Each barrel contains from 350 to 400 pounds of fruit. The supply of berry crates and hallocks comes mainly from three small mills at Yarrow. Mission and, Haney and from Fraser Wood Products Limited, which makes veneer. These plants are now idle or nearly so through lack of logs for veneer.

That is the general position as stated by one who is interested in the ideas which are being put before the house by the member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) and by others. I have taken the trouble to-day to have the position reviewed by officials of the department, through getting in direct contact with British Columbia, and the information gathered is compiled in another memorandum, which is the result of conversations that took place within the last hour and a half. The statements made are to this effect:

Strawberries. The first picking started on May 30. From 1,500 to 2,500 crates are going to prairie markets daily. By the end of next week shipments will be up to 7,000 and 8,000 crates daily. The present supply of crates amounts to about 40,000 which are in the hands of the organized shippers. Independents are in a bad position. The estimated crop of

strawberries for this year is 4,000 tons.

Raspberries. Expected to start picking about 24th June. Organized growers have between

35.000 and 40,000 crates on hand. Independent shippers are short. The estimated crop is 5,500 tons.

[Mr. Stirling.}

Barrels. The Pacific Union have on hand

13,000 barrels-5,000 new U.S., 2,000 new B.C., and 6,000 old barrels. Fraser Valley Co-Op. have all the barrels they will require for this year. Yarrow Co-op. have only about 1,000 barrels on hand and 1,000 promised. Their position is very short. New barrel requirements are in the neighbourhood of about 35,000. The actual shortage is about 21,000 barrels.

The statement is made that "we are unable to obtain or secure any more barrels from the United States at present". That is, I presume, for use in making supplies available to others than the Americans themselves, and there is no assurance that barrels would be supplied from the United States even if they were to be returned packed with berries, although it is stated there may be private commitments to that effect of which the department itself would have no information. That is the position as it is reported to us at the moment.

I do not intend this afternoon, though others may desire to do so, to discuss the pros and cons of the arguments that can be brought forward on either side of the labour dispute which is on at the moment, or to state what ought to be done in relation to it. I only point out that in the summaries I have read it is indicated that three or four companies are making containers and it would probably not be a difficult thing for someone to take control of these companies and operate them if that in itself would get the results desired. My understanding is, however, that the supplies of logs which would be required to make possible the manufacture of containers is something which goes much deeper than that and involves a problem which would have to be solved before the operation of the plants themselves would be effective.

The question which was asked yesterday, and the proposal which was made with a view to providing some solution for the difficulty, is however on a very much narrower basis than the basis upon which the discussion is taking place to-day. The member for Fraser Valley, rising in his place yesterday, stated:

I should like to direct a question to the government. I do not know which department it comes under so I have given notice to three ministers. My first question is, what steps are being taken to save thousands of tons of berries worth over a million dollars, now under contract to the United Kingdom from being lost, owing to the lack of barrels and containers?

I would like to take a few moments to deal with that first question and the background which makes it an important one.

In the first place, early in the war the British government did not desire to have fruit shipped because of the fact that it took up very considerable space and supplied less food value to those who required ford than did some

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other types of food, and so a market for what is known as S02 was not readily available. During the first period of the war our chief difficulty was to try to persuade the British to take S02, and I might suggest that one of the members active in trying to bring that about was the member for Fraser Valley. He did on many occasions emphasize the importance of getting rid of this product, which provides an outlet for surplus, which canqot be sold, of fresh berries in the province of British Columbia. As a result of representations made by himself and others, and the efforts exerted on their behalf by the special products board, we did from time to time persuade the British to take certain quantities of S02 in order to relieve the situation existing in British Columbia. Last year the British government asked for this product. They asked what quantity of it we could supply and we made arrangements to have supplied to them the quantity which was available at that time. This year, when I was in Britain in January, we approached the British government to find out whether they woud be willing to take S02 this year, and in what quantity, and the understanding we reached with them was that they were anxious to obtain the product and would take whatever quantity could be made available to them this year.

I quite agree with what the member for Fraser Valley said a few moments ago. In spite of the fact that jam and fruit generally is not of the same food value as bacon, butter, wheat or products of that kind, when there are difficulties in obtaining butter, jam is a very good spread for bread to induce children to eat more of that commodity than they otherwise would, and it is particularly good for the type of bread which is being supplied children on the European continent and in Britain at the present time. It makes the bread more palatable and a better food because of the fact that it has jam upon it. So at the present time the British are placing perhaps more emphasis upon the obtaining of this product Than they were at the beginning or even in the middle of the war. The net result is that officials of the department approached the fruit producers of British Columbia and obtained assurances that certain quantities of S02 would be made available this year to the British government in barrels, and my understanding is that all the barrels necessary for the shipment of S02 in the form in which the British government desire to have it, for the making of jam to be served on the continent or perhaps mainly in Britain itself, have been assured to make available

the quantities which the organized producers of British Columbia agreed could be made available from that province. So as far as the first question is concerned I can only say we feel that provision has been mad,e to make available to Britain, in containers suitable for the purpose, S02 in the quantity which has been arranged. [DOT]

The second part of the question is stated in these words:

The second question-and these are straight questions-is, will the government grant an immediate export permit for five hundred tons of raspberries to the United States . . .

Later the hon. gentleman repeated the question in these words:

. . . will the government grant an immediate export permit for five hundred tons of raspberries to the United States, barrels and containers for which will be supplied by the United States purchasers, thus permitting raspberry barrels on hand to be used for the present emergency in the marketing of strawberries. That is a straight question, and it is a vital one for the people of Canada.

The answer to that question, Mr. Speaker, if it will be helpful in the decisions that are to be reached, can be made just as direct as the answer to the other question. In the first place the Department of Agriculture is anxious to see that the S02 promised, not by contract but by word of mouth, to the British government will be made available to them. The department is anxious to have that undertaking fulfilled in order to keep faith, if you like, with those who are expecting to obtain the product in order to provide food of the type I was discussing a few moments ago for the people of Great Britain. But we do not consider that we should press that matter to the point of making it impossible for the berry growers of British Columbia to be able to market their product. I think I can say to the hon. member for Fraser Valley or to any other hon. member of the house that there, would be very little if any hesitation in issuing permits to have five hundred tons of - these berries exported to the United States. Some further consideration might have to be given to the question whether more than that quantity should be exported, in view of all the circumstances, but I think I can say without fear of any other decision being rendered that every possible consideration will be given to requests for permits for the shipment of berries to the United States from the British Columbia area to make it possible to market fruit which otherwise could not be marketed as the result of a shortage of containers in that area. In other words if, as is suggested, the Americans are prepared to make containers available in which to ship

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to the United States berries which otherwise would go to waste in the province of British Columbia, then I do not think anyone in the government or in this house would take the position that these berries must be allowed to spoil in the fields instead of being shipped to someone, somewhere, who would utilize them and pay the producers for them.

On.the other hand I should like to emphasize the fact that a market for S02 has been represented to us as most important to the berry growers of British Columbia, and I repeat that one of those who have been most ardent in making these representations is the hon. member for Fraser Valley. That is only natural, since as he has stated this afternoon he represents the berry growers. So I would say that anjdhing the department has said or done in regard to the. matter has been with the view of protecting the position of the berry growers of British Columbia. As far as we are concerned at the moment the growers will be in a position to make up their own minds as to whether they wish to ship five hundred tons of berries to the United States, leaving it to the future to determine whether supplies can be placed in the other markets to which they usually send berries. We are not going to battle for -them or against them in that matter; we think that is something in which they themselves are most interested. We will assist them in every way possible in doing what they desire to do. But I should like to say that in making the distribution of the five hundred tons, or any other quantity that is to be exported from British Columbia to the United States, I do not think anyone will expect us to issue a permit to any one organization. Whatever permits are issued should be distributed over the whole industry in British Columbia; and in making that distribution the interests cf the berry growers of the province will be taken into consideration first. One of the factors to be kept in mind in arriving at any conclusion will be the question whether containers are available at the time the matter is under consideration; that is, some consideration has to be given to strawberries immediately, and to raspberries some two weeks hence, though I agree that provision must be made in advance so people may know what they are going to do, and they must know what the situation is going to be. When it becomes necessary to make a decision and when all the facts are known, the question whether or not containers are available will be one of the main considerations in the mind of the department in deciding what part of the product might be

{Mr. Gardiner.]

exported and what part might be marketed in our own country or in Great Britain, in accordance with the wishes of those who are growing the berries. In other words I do not want the house to think there is any controversy with regard to this matter which cannot be settled, better than anywhere else, among the berry growers of British Columbia themselves, as far as the marketing of the berries is concerned.

On the other question, dealing with the strike and the making of boxes in British Columbia, I have nothing to say this afternoon. I have not the information upon which to base any statement; therefore I leave that matter to be discussed by others who have the information at hand. As far as the marketing of these berries is concerned, however, no department of the government is going to do anything which will make it even possible for berries to rot unconsumed in the fields of the province of British Columbia.

Mr. THOMAS BEID (New Westminster):

Mr. Speaker, the matter brought before the house this afternoon by the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank) is indeed a serious one, in that it affects not only the supply of food, but also the livelihood of considerable numbers of farmers.

May I say first of all a word as to the remarks just concluded by the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner). The information he gave in the latter part of his speech is not borne out by the information submitted to us by those who are growing berries and those who are in charge of the canning factories. In the first part of his speech he read from a statement which said that one concern alone were 13,000 barrels short, and that 45.000 crates were needed. Then, in the concluding part of his remarks he pointed out that from the further information he had it would seem as though there were ample barrels and ample crates. To me there is a conflict of view in what he has said.

Mr. GARDINER:

I do not wish to be misquoted. If I left that impression, I did not intend to.

Mr. REID:

I thought you did.

Mr. GARDINER:

We had1 better straighten it out, then. The statement I made was that there are sufficient barrels with which to ship S02 to Britain, but I did not say there were sufficient containers of any other kind to market fruit. I did say if there are not sufficient containers for the marketing of this crop

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and the handling of the fruit, permission will be given to allow the fruit to go to the United States.

Mr. REID:

I am glad the minister mentioned something about fruit going to the United States, because there again the house has not been given information as to the price set for fruit going to Britain.

I do not think anyone will disagree with the attitude the farmers take, namely that they should be allowed an increase the same as those who strike for higher wages, and just as high a price as they can obtain, owing to the fact that all costs have increased. The fruit growers know about the market in the United States, and see a better local market this year on account of the fact that the price ceiling has been lifted on berries. I should be interested to know if the officials in the minister's department have set a price on berries which they have agreed to ship to Britain. I doubt if much of the fruit about which the minister has spoken will go to Britain, unless the price to the growers from the British authorities is as favourable as that which can be obtained on the local market.

As to the present strike, it is most unfortunate that the farmers must suffer loss. When the man who works for wmges goes on strike he does not draw pay during the strike period, and in this way he sustains a monetary loss, according to the number of weeks or months he is idle. But in respect to the berry growers, the situation is more acute. The grower plants a crop, lays out either his own. capital or that which he can borrow, and looks forward to harvesting the crop when the fruit is ripe. If anything goes wrong, there is a loss not only of food but also of financial returns to the farmer. Those returns must be obtained within a period of two to four months. If the crop spoils, then that farmer's entire livelihood, for the whole year, disappears. It is not just the income for one or two months, buit the year's income that he loses.

I listened to the Minister of Agriculture this afternoon when he referred to jam instead of butter being put on bread. It is high time that at least some members of parliament should * revise their views as to the value of fruit in the nation's diet. I do not know how many members read a report which was sent out only a few days ago on experiments in foods undertaken by the Department of National Health and'Welfare in connection with the food conditions among Indians. What did they find? They found that a diet of flour, pork, sugar and tea was most deficient, but

that when the Indians produced fruit, berries and so on, their improvement in health was very manifest.

Fruit is of greater value than some in this house and others outside have given to it. It contains vitamins and acids the body requires, and it is time we added more fruit to our food menus, rather than thinking of it as something extra to be taken and therefore not to be classed with potatoes, wheat and other grains.

Last year during the strike of employees of the American Can company farmers of one district in my constituency had to stand by day after day and see their crops rotting, although they were told that there was an ample supply of cans in the warehouse in Vancouver. I remember a delegation of farmers coming to me and saying, "Mr. Reid, if something is not done by the government, or if these men will not allow us to obtain cans, we are going to take the law into our own hands." They were serious about it. Those farmers from the municipalities of Delta and 'Richmond were prepared to take their guns, or staves and pitchforks, and move into the city of Vancouver, there forcibly to take cans from the warehouses. I advised them not to attempt to do any such thing. But I did say this, "You have a lesson to learn from the trade unions." I do not know whether that lesson will ever be heeded by the farmers. But if only the farmers could organize on the same scale and to the same extent as those in the labour unions-well, I ask-you, Mr. Speaker, just how many in this country would eat? What would happen if the farmers did not get their just requirements, or what they actually need to enable them to produce the necessary crops?

To return to a discussion of the lumber strike and the effect it has had on the farmers in the Fraser Valley, it is a little unfortunate that action has been delayed until this discussion developed in the house-because every member from British Columbia, individually, lias been appealing to the government for the past two weeks. The matter cannot wait much longer; otherwise the entire crop will perish.

The statement of the Minister of Agriculture that permission will be given for the shipment of at least 500,000 tons to the United States does not entirely solve the problem. There is also the question of the shipment of eggs, which require new crates, and the supply of these is short.

Added to that is the matter of fish shipments. The hon. member for Vancouver

North (Mr. Sinclair) has pointed out that

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fish is shipped in boxes in a frozen state. The situation is, therefore, serious not only for the man who ships fruit, but also for the poultryman, the fisherman and the fish packers.

I am not going to discuss the merits or demerits of the strike-although this can be safely Said, that it is high time the labour laws in this country were clarified as to the respective jurisdictions of provincial and dominion governments. If there is anything that has beclouded the issue and befuddled the public, surely it has been the process of passing the buck from the provincial government to the dominion government, and the dominion taking the stand at times that it is up to the provincial governments to come in and do something. I suggest to the Minister of Labour that more consultation be had with the provinces with a view to clarifying the matter and coming to some definite agreement or policy with respect to the labour laws of this country. They cannot be brushed aside. Perhaps this is not the time to settle this question, when we are in the midst of heated strikes, but measures will have to be taken to prevent similar situations from arising in other parts of the dominion.

I rose particularly to support the hon. member for Fraser Valley and also to speak on behalf of those farmers in my district who are w-ondering what the outcome will be. I plead with the government not to stand idly by and see this waste- of good food and the loss of savings and capital of men who have invested their all in this business.

Mr. ANGUS MacINNIS (Vancouver East):

Mr. Speaker, as a British Columbia member who is deeply interested in this question I wish to say a few words on the matter brought up by the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank). May I say to the hon. member that he need not apologize for raising this very important question, and he certainly need not apologize for the way he has stated his case to the house. Perhaps it is not his case, but the case of the fruit growers of British Columbia.

The situation is so serious that I am sure everyone who speaks will be careful not to say anything that will help to make it worse than it is. The hon. member for Fraser Valley mentioned that there was a lumber shortage before the strike began, but I think it must be admitted that the strike has intensified the difficulty and perhaps precipitated the present crisis. If there had been no strike, while here and there, there might have been shortages of lumber for crates, it would not

have been a very serious matter. The ultimate solution of course is a quick ending to the strike and it seems to me that only the governments-the government here and the government in British Columbia-can bring that about. I am frank in saying that I have no solution to offer, but I do submit that one of the ways in which an end of the strike can be brought about is first to ascertain the facts or the questions at issue and then give publicity to any offers of settlement made by the parties concerned. In this way public opinion may be brought to bear against those who will not acquiesce when a reasonable offer is made.

The hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid) has pointed out, I think fairly, the difficulty of the position of the' fruit growers in British Columbia. This crop must be harvested vand shipped in a matter of days. There can be no delays. I should like to point out the social nature of our production in this day and age. It is quite clear that the British Columbia fruit grower does not grow' the fruit alone. He takes part in the growing of fruit, but he cannot complete the operation until the fruit has reached the ultimate consumer. It is quite clear that before it reaches the ultimate consumer the lumber worker must take part in the fruit growing, as well as the box manufacturer and a host of other people. We can no longer leave our economic life to the chances of a struggle between the various groups engaged in production, each working for its own end.

Two dr three important considerations must be kept in mind. The first is that quick action must be taken. We cannot wait even for a few days. Action must be taken immediately if the strawberry crop is to be saved. I followed carefully what the Minister of Agriculture (Mr. Gardiner) said, and I thought he indicated that he was going to give' direct reply to the questions asked yesterday by the hon. member for Fraser Valley. But I could not discover any direct reply to the hon. member's last question.

Mr. GARDINER:

We are prepared to give permits to export five hundred tons. That ought to be a sufficiently direct reply to the question.

Mr. MacINNIS:

The permits should be

issued immediately if they are required immediately.

Mr. GARDINER:

The question asked was: Are you prepared to give permits for five hundred tons of ^raspberries which are not

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going to be picked for two weeks to be shipped to the United States? We said, "Yes." I do not know how that could be any more direct.

Mr. MacINNIS:

I may be wrong, but that appears to be more direct that what the minister said a little while ago.

The second important point is that food should not be wasted. If there is any crime to-day more heinous than any other, it is the wasting of food. An appeal should be made to the parties in the dispute. We should not be hypocritical and talk about helping the-starving people of Europe while we allow food to go to waste in this country.

The third important point is that we should try to find ways and means of settling this dispute. I agree with the hon. member for New Westminster when he urges that there should be more cooperation between the provincial departments of labour and the federal Department of Labour. We are not yet out of the war crisis, and the cooperation and direction which the federal Department of Labour gave during the war should be continued, at least where it can be continued with the consent and cooperation of the provincial department of labour. I believe the British Columbia department of labour is more than willing to cooperate with the federal authorities.

I hope that no effort will be spared to arrive at a settlement as quickly as possible. If it would help toward a settlement I suggest that this house go on record in the form of a definite motion asking the parties concerned to refer all matters in dispute to arbitration, the findings to be retroactive from the date the strike began, and thus start immediately saving this food and the livelihood of the farmers of British Columbia.