Mr. ARCHIBALD:

There is just one point I should like to bring up. I do not wish to criticize or to raise the devil too much with the minister because I see he has an item in here for Hazelton; therefore I shall go fairly easily.

Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):

That has been voted.

Mr. ARCHIBALD:

I am not going to speak on that. I should like to deal with dredging at Dalketla slough. I received a letter from the district engineer, Mr. K. W. Morton, of New Westminster, with an outline of the projects contemplated for the Pacific coast, and in that was $301,950 for a breakwater at Wiah Point. I do not see that included in the estimates here. Has it been dropped?

Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):

I am informed that the estimates which were given to the hon. member were probably a post-war and timing project. They are not in these estimates. I shall look up the item mentioned by the hon. member and see what can be done about it, but not at this session.

Mr. ARCHIBALD:

Under these contemplated post-war projects, I should like to bring in this matter; along with Wiah Point, dredging should be done at the village of Massett, so that the fishermen can go over and live in that district. It is important to the fishermen who go out on long-line trawling in that area. It would build up the Queen Charlotte islands. It is a marvellous harbour if it was improved.

Mr. PEARKES:

I hesitate to rise and urge a complaint against another British Columbia constituency, particularly since that constituency is represented by an hon. member on the other side of the house; but all the filth from the Fraser valley is brought down and deposited in my constituency. I want it removed. The silt from the Fraser river comes down and is filling up the harbours of Nanaimo, Ladysmith and Chemainus;

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the harbours in the Gulf islands; Sidney; the great harbour of Victoria-about which I shall have something to say in a moment- and the entrance of the San Juan river.

First. I want to deal with the entrance of the San Juan river. That is the very centre of an extensive logging country. Every year hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of logs are exported through that harbour. The entrance of the harbour leading to Port Renfrew is silting up to such an extent that the tugs of the Malahat Logging Company and the Hemmingsen-Cameron Logging Company are having the greatest difficulty in getting their logs over that bar. I suggest that one thing we need in this country at the present time is lumber; and if from the heart of the lumber country we cannot export our logs to the mills on the mainland because of a lack of dredges, then this department must make a strenuous effort to provide the necessary dredges so that these logs can be exported.

That condition exists not only on the southern coast of Vancouver island but also on the eastern coast, at those other harbours I mentioned: Nanaimo, Ladysmith and

Chemainus, where the big mills of the Arictoria Lumber Company are situated, and at the harbour of Sidney, where we have ferries running not only from the mainland of British Columbia but also from the United States. All those harbours are silting up. All those harbours demand immediately the dredging operations they were denied during the war years, and one can understand why they were denied that work. A great deal of work is now needed, not only to make up for what should have been done during the war years, but in order to get the lumber from Vancouver island out to the mills, and to the reconstruction projects all over Canada.

I want to say one word about the harbour of Victoria, which is also silting up. As the minister no doubt knows, recommendations have been made as to the purchase of Riffett docks and the development of what is known as fishermen's harbour in Victoria. I believe the minister has this question under consideration. I should like to ask the minister what is being done and how far the negotiations have proceeded in connection with those two projects in the harbour of Victoria. I should like also to have the minister to tell us how many dredges we have on the Pacific coast. I listened with amazement a few minutes ago to references to dredge No. 11, No. 12, No. 13, No. 14, No. 15, No. 16 and No. 17 being employed on the Atlantic coast. I

do not believe we have anything like that number on the Pacific coast.

Mr. MACKENZIE:

Before the minister replies, may I tell my hon. friend that the committee will note with great appreciation this "war of the Georges."

Mr. PEARKES:

I should like an answer to my question.

Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):

I am sorry, but under item 302 my hon. friend is discussing matters which come under item 321, where he will see:

Victoria-toward dredging, $100,000.

Victoria-fishing harbourage, $67,000.

The contract for the fishing harbour has not yet been given out, but I understand that we are calling for tenders in the very near future.

The other question was as to how many dredges we have on the Pacific coast. We have four dredges, two tugs, six scows, two motor boats, sixty-four pontoons and one pile-driver barge.

Mr. PEARKES:

I am afraid the motor boats will not do much dredging, will they?

Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):

I do not know. I am no expert, but they might help.

Mr. PEARKES:

What about Riffett wharf at Victoria? What is the position of those negotiations?

Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):

I am sorry I

have not the information here, but I shall let my hon. friend know. I shall send a request to the official to prepare a report and shall give my hon. friend the information.

Mr. PEARKES:

Negotiations have been

under way for some time, and that is all linked up with the development of the harbour at Victoria and the dredging necessary there.

Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):

We have two

items covering what the hon. gentleman has asked. We are now calling for tenders as to the first item, and we are negotiating in regard to the fishing harbour. That is about all the information I have now, unless I look over the file.

Mr. PEARKES:

Surely the minister can

tell me how far those negotiations have gone. We have been talking about this matter for the past three years; it has been actively discussed in all the newspapers month after month.

Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):

The hon. gentleman will find those two items concerning Victoria on page 46 of the estimates under

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item 321. I can read what notes I have here and give him the information they contain as to this item of fishing harbourage. This item is to provide for dredging and the construction of an approach landing pier, gangway and floats. Proposed work is urgently required to accommodate an additional 220 fishing boats which have no permanent place to moor at present. The proposed work includes the removal of approximately 22,000 cubic yards of gravel, silt and so on; constructing main float sixteen feet by 1,770 feet; constructing eight floats ten feet by 200 feet with moorings, constructing approach landing pier and gangway. The estimated cost for the removal of 22,000 cubic yards of gravel at eighty cents per cubic yard is $17,600; for floats, gangway and pier, $48,958; for inspection, advertising and contingencies, $442, making a total of $67,000 for that one item. We are not on the right item. I wonder if the hon. member would let this item pass and when we get to item 321-

Mr. REID:

No, it is not carried at the

present time. We cannot get away without saying something about what the hon. member for Nanaimo said about the Fraser river. It was nice that he said it with a smile, but that smile will not appear on Hansard. It was a kind of slur about what the Fraser river brings down. From what I know about his riding-and I lived there for many years- it is just what his riding needs.

Mr. PEARKES:

May I suggest that the Nanaimo riding needs little free silt.

Mr. REID:

Of course Nanaimo has deteriorated since I left there-because I did happen to live there for a certain number of years. But to keep the record clear, he knows very well that what the Fraser river brings down does not go farther than the middle of the gulf. You can see the line of demarcation. But it is just too bad it does not go any farther.

Having disposed of that, 1 should like to speak about something more practical in connection with dredges. We have operating on the Fraser river two dredges. It was news to me that there were four of them, when the minister said so a minute ago. But the two dredges operating on the Fraser river-and I think sometimes in Nanaimo and sometimes at Victoria-are not sufficient at all for the work in British Columbia.

Those dredges are forty-five or fifty years old, and they are inadequate. I should like the minister seriously to tell hon. members from

British Columbia-not myself particularly, because we are all interested in the matter- when we are to have modern dredges, fit and able to keep up with the work required. I know he was presented with a large brief by the New Westminster board of trade, and they set out just what industry's position was in regard to water transportation and dredging requirements. I am not going to read into the record what these firms have said, because it will take too much time. But if the minister has read it-and I hope he has-he .will realize that there is great need for modern dredges for the Fraser river.

During the period of the war a great deal of work was done by these dredges, with the result that siltation took place on the river. In many places industries were entirely blocked because, as is well known, thousands of tons of fine silt or sand come down the Fraser river every year, and are deposited at various places along the bank. If this is not taken out this year, twice as much will have to be taken out next year. Many places have become almost impassable for boats, so far as reaching the wharves is concerned.

We are years behind the time, and I would ask the minister to give some assurance that the matter of new dredges will be looked into and considered seriously-not just by saying, "Oh, well, after the session is over we will give the matter some consideration." Appeals have been made to him for the last three or four years, and we were told that the war was on. But, as the hon. member for Nanaimo has said, the war is now over, and we want to cash in by getting some results.

I would appreciate it if the minister would give us some assurance as to what will be done in the matter of dredges. I would refer, too, to the railway bridge across the Fraser river at New Westminster. Siltation has been taking place until it has become an expensive item to keep that part of the river dredged. This year it was suggested that a model be set up by the national research council, with a view to finding out what steps could or should be taken to keep that portion of the river free from silting up. It has become so serious that it would be necessary to keep a dredge working continuously at that one spot, if satisfactory results were to be obtained.

I do not know whether the minister has seen the model, but one of his engineers took me to see it in operation. I suggest that that model is in the wrong place. No man who has seen the Fraser river only once, and then has returned to Ottawa and attempts to carry out his experiments three thousand miles away,

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can operate successfully. 1 suggest 'that if the minister has any say at all, so far as ithe national research council is concerned, he should ask that this model and the experimentation be taken out to British Columbia, so that the work could be carried on more effectively than it can be done here, so fax from the coast.

Mr. CRU1CKSHANK: It being so close to seven o'clock, may I call it seven o'clock?