August 10, 1946

PC

Arthur Leroy Smith

Progressive Conservative

Mr. A. L. SMITH (Calgary West):

Last Monday I asked a question of the Minister of Trade and Commerce, who is not here this morning, with respect to the export of certain flour. He has not answered it, and I wonder if somebody would direct his attention to it so that I may have an answer.

Federal District Commission

Topic:   *SHIPMENTS TO ECUADOR-QUESTION OF RESTRICTION OF EXPORT
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LIB

Robert Wellington Mayhew (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance)

Liberal

Mr. R. W. MAYHEW (Victoria, B.C.):

I think I can give the hon. member some information, in connection with the flour. Two fairly large ships arrived in Canada about a week ago to load flour, but it was necessary that they undergo extensive repairs which it would, take a couple of weeks to complete. During that period the railway companies could not unload their cars because the ships were not ready to receive them. They had much other work for the cars to do, and they used their cars for that purpose. In addition, the flour coiild be kept in better shape in the warehouse than in cars alongside the track. I am glad to be able to report that the repairs to these ships are about completed, and the movement of flour will again start from the mills.

'Mr. SMITH (Calgary West): I am sure we are all glad to have the information, but it does not answer the question I asked.

Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Acting Prime Minister): May I direct the attention of the hon. member to the answer given by the Minister of Trade and Commerce to be found at page 4376 of Hansard.

Topic:   *SHIPMENTS TO ECUADOR-QUESTION OF RESTRICTION OF EXPORT
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PC

Arthur Leroy Smith

Progressive Conservative

Mr. SMITH (Calgary West):

Thank you; I was not here.

Topic:   *SHIPMENTS TO ECUADOR-QUESTION OF RESTRICTION OF EXPORT
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FOREIGN EXCHANGE CONTROL

STATUTORY AUTHORITY FOR ORDERS IN COUNCIL PASSED UNDER WAR MEASURES ACT


Mr. R. W. MAYHEW (Parliamentary Assistant to the Minister of Finance) moved the third reading of bill No. 195, respecting the control of the acquisition and disposition of foreign currency and the control of transactions involving foreign currency of non-residents. Motion agreed to, bill read the third time and passed.


FEDERAL DISTRICT COMMISSION

PROVISION FOR ADDITIONAL COMMISSIONERS, TRANSFER OF CERTAIN JURISDICTION, AND GRANTING OF MONEY


The house resumed from Friday, August 9, consideration in committee of bill No. 357, to amend the Federal District Commission Act-Mr. St. Laurent-Mr. Golding in the chair. On section 1-National capital district. Right Hon. L. S. ST. LAURENT (Minister of Justice): Mr. Chairman, it is not my intention at this time, or perhaps at any time, to make any lengthy plea in favour of the 63260-289J provisions for the improvement of the federal area. This bill is nothing new; it is simply a continuation of provisions that have been made for almost the last fifty years in that regard. The fact that the matter had been in progress for fifty years should not surprise anyone. I should be very much surprised, and my descendants would be very much disappointed, I am sure, if it did not go on for more than fifty years in the future. I think' it is the fairly general view that the development of the national capital will keep pace with the development of the country as a nation, and I hope that will go on for a very long time. The leader of th# opposition asked me at the resolution stage if I would make a brief statement on the historical, background of this movement, which is not the policy of any one party but is something to which all those who have had responsibility for government in Canada over the last half century have been giving careful, sympathetic and effective consideration and cooperation. The historical background of the commission is given on pages 60 and 61 in No. 3 of the proceedings of the joint committee of the senate and the House of Commons, reports ing its sittings of Wednesday, June 28, 1944. I mention this because it is given in greater detail than I propose to give it in summarizing it this morning. But perhaps for the immediate information of hon. members who may not have this report at hand just at the moment, I may say that the federal district commission had its inception as the Ottawa improvement commission in 1899. It was established for the purpose of beautifying and improving the city of Ottawa as the capital of Canada by the construction of parks, driveways, public squares, boulevards and so forth. Four commissioners comprised its membership, three being appointed by the governor in council and the fourth by the city of Ottawa. The chairman was named by the governor in council. All were to serve without remuneration. An annual grant of 860,000 was provided for a period of ten years from July 1, 1899. By an amending act assented to on August 13, 1903 the period during which the annual grant of $60,000 was to be paid was extended to twenty years, from the first of July, 1899 and the commission was given power to borrow up to $250,000 by the sale of debentures. By an amending act assented to on May 4, 1910 the annual grant was increased to $100,000 for a ten-year period commencing July 1, 1909. An act to consolidate and amend the acts respecting the Ottawa improvement commission was then assented to on July 17, Federal District Commission



1919. These dates will indicate that it was a matter that was being dealt with not only by one party but by whatever administration had responsibility for the affairs of the country. The act of 1919 increased the annual grant to $150,000 for a ten-year period from July 1, 1919, and then in 1,927 the name of the commission was changed from the Ottawa improvement commission to the federal distiet *commission. The act passed in that year increased the powers of the commission to enable it to extend its activities to areas or districts outside the capital proper, and provided for the appointment of a commissioner .as a representative of the city of Hull. The dominion government, I^m told, was actuated by the desire to widen the scope of the commission's functions to embrace not only Ottawa and the immediate vicinity but Hull and the adjoining municipalities on both sides as an integral part of the national capital area. The act of 1927 also increased the annual grant of the commission to $250,000, but this was reduced again to $200,000 in 1928 when provision was made for a grant of $3,000,000 to be expended upon capital improvements over a period of years. The beautification and improvement works which had been commenced in 1900 for Ottawa and district, under these authorizing acts of parliament, consist of parks, landscapes, driveways, the latter extending from Rockcliffe park east of the city of Ottawa to Aylmer road west of the city of Hull, The driveway follows as closely as convenient the banks of the Ottawa and Rideau rivers and the Rideau canal. Approximately twenty-two miles of driveways have been constructed, Gatineau park, comprising 16,000 acres situated in the Laurentian hills on the Quebec side of the river, about seven air miles northwest of Ottawa, is being preserved in its natural state of wooded hills, valleys, lakes and streams, for the enjoyment of the public. By orders in council the responsibility of improving and maintaining, the grounds of Rideau Hall, those surrounding the national research council buildings and other dominion government buildings in Ottawa was transferred from the Department of Public Works to the commission in the years 1932 to 1934. Amounts for this work are voted annually by parliament in estimates approved by the governor in council. The number of properties now serviced by the commission is 110. The land now owned or controlled by the federal district commission in and around Ottawa, exclusive of the 16,000-acre national park, is: Owned by the federal district commission, 758 acres; leased from the crown, 224 acres; leased from £Mr. St. Laurent.! the city of Ottawa and developed and maintained by the commission, 129 acres; grounds of government buildings maintained through the instrumentality of the commission under these orders in council, about 200 acres, or a total of grounds thus administered and maintained by the commission in Ottawa and the immediate vicinity of 1,311 acres. In addition, as I stated a moment ago, there is the 16,000 acres of land in the Gatineau park. The leader of the opposition in his inquiry the other day, seemed particularly interested in having a statement of receipts and expenditures of the commission since its inception. The figures I have been given are as follows: Statutory grants from 1899 to 1909, $60,000 a year for 10 years $600,000 Statutory grants from 1909 to 1919, $100,000 a year for 10 years 1,000,000 Statutory grants from 1919 to 1927, $150,000 a year for 8 years 1,200,000 Statutory grants from 1927 to 1928, 1 year 250,000 Statutory grants from 1928 to 1946, $200,000 a year for 18 years 3,600,000 In addition thereto, special grant made under the act of 1928 3,000,000 Grand total $9,650,000 In addition to that there have been votes by parliament over that period of $1,162,788. There have also been advances from government departments for work on the maintenance of grounds and new buildings of $2,016,766, making a grand total of $12,829,554 over the forty-eight years. I come now to the expenditures for that period: For the construction and maintenance of the parkway system, $10,690,117; for the maintenance of grounds of government buildings, $1,375,125; for the development of grounds of new government buildings, $641,640. In connection with the future work of the commission there are a few points I should like to mention. First of all I wish to point out that there is no provision in this bill or in anything parliament is being asked to pass making this a national war memorial. This is a bill to amend the act respecting the federal district commission, and these amendments are required, and I trust will be made by the house, entirely apart from any idea as to whether or not the development of the national capital should be classified as a national war memorial. I know that the Prime Minister has urged that the development of the national capital might be a fitting way for the nation to express its gratification at the role played by the Canadian nation in the last war. That is a matter about which it was apparent from the debate last evening Federal District Commission that there is no unanimity of opinion, and it is not my purpose to ask the house to make any pronouncement about it at this time. This bill is for the continuation of the development of the capital area consisting of Ottawa and the surrounding district. I think there is much to be said for the view that it is something that the Canadian nation would wish to do entirely regardless of any other consideration. I think it is something that the Canadian nation feels should keep pace with the development of the country. The appropriation suggested at this time would not be required, and would probably not be justified, if we in this house felt that the Canadian nation had reached the full stage of its national development and of its importance in world affairs. But as the nation develops-and I think we all feel that it will develop for a long period still, and that this immense area of the habitable portion of the globe is to be the home of a much larger population than the twelve million people who control it at the present time-as that goes on, it will be necessary that the national capital keep pace with the development of the nation. In order that that may be possible I think it is only the part of prudence and foresight to lay out plans which will not be carried out at any early day but which it would be possible to realize without having to destroy too much placed in the way of their realization when the proper time comes. It was for that purpose, and it is for the same purpose, that these capital sums are being asked parliament to appropriate. There are a great many places in Canada where the development has been such that it has necessitated the tearing down of things which would still intrinsically have had some value but which had to make way for something more useful which the developments had made necessary. As I said at the resolution stage, the work will be somewhat greater in extent than it had been, hitherto, because of two factors. One is that over the past five or six years the development of our people as a nation has proceeded with greater rapidity than it had at any previous period. Canada's position as one of the nations of the world has asserted itself to a much greater degree during the last few years than had happened at any time before, though it must be at once stated that the groundwork for that development and for that expansion had been laid from the very beginning. This is just one example of what I have in mind. The exchange of diplomatic representatives between the Canadian government and the other governments has brought to Ottawa a large body of officials representing other nations of the world. Their presence in Ottawa has put some strain upon the buildings, upon the layout which had previously sufficed for the requirements of the business transacted on behalf of the nation at the national capital, and that is still going on. The second factor which makes it appear desirable to proceed a little more rapidly is that so much of the maintenance and development work had to give way to more urgent matters during the war period, and they had to be deferred until this time. The federal district commission is like any other large body in Canada. It had to allow activities that were not of vital necessity to win the war to be deferred until the war had been won. This bill does not deal with any general plan of development which may be decided on for the capital, and I would not expect that there would be any decision made at this time or in the immediate future blueprinting what was to be done and at what dates it would be done. But a general over-all plan is being prepared which would make possible the development of a national capital with a population two or three times what it is at the present time, showing what a city of that size as the national capital would be apt to require. It is suggested in this bill that there be such cooperation between the various authorities concerned as would prevent the doing of things which would be obstacles to the realization of that larger plan, as and when conditions made it proper to develop it. To cover expenditures of a capital type, such as those for the purchase of lands and works, the development of the parkway system and so on, the bill before the house provides that over a period of years the sum of $3,000,000 may be allocated to the commission, as a similar sum of $3,000,000 was made available between 1928 and 1935 under the terms of the 1928 act. To cover the increased current expenditures an increase in the annual grant from $200,000 to $300,000 is also requested. The part of the work of the commission which will be connected with the broader developments of the capital will require special arrangements. As hon. members know, the government has had Mr. Jacques Greber to advise on the general planning. I was much interested and impressed by what was said last evening by the hon. member for Eglinton. I think all Canadians wish this capital to be expressive of Canadian mentality and Canadian conditions, that it be the capital of the Canadian nation and not a pocket edition of anything already in existence else- Federal District Commission



where. But as the hon. member suggested, in that connection it is wise to have advice as good as can be obtained, and I think the knowledge a competent landscape or town development architect has acquired over a long period of years in examining the layout of other capitals or other cities is something which can be of considerable assistance. I do not suppose there is a city in the world where mistakes have not been made. I think it wise to have the advice of one who has studied the situation elsewhere, who knows what mistakes it is necessary to guard against and who can suggest outlines and general plans to be worked out in the atmosphere of a Canadian mentality and of Canadian conditions in this federal area. I have been here only a few years and am not competent to express any views, but I am not convinced that the development of the railway terminal here has not been a mistake to a certain degree, and that it might not have been wiser and more helpful to the ultimate development of a greater federal capital to have made some other arrangements for bringing the railway systems into the city. I am not expressing that as a definite opinion, but there are those who are not convinced that some mistake was not made there. The work 'being prepared under the guidance of Mr. Greber is being done here in Canada by a staff of Canadian architects and draftsmen, and is something that will make available not a plan for immediate realization but a plan which will show what kind of arrangements it would appear in the light of experience to be necessary to provide for in a national capital that might have two or three times or perhaps even more the population of present day Ottawa.


LIB

Thomas Reid

Liberal

Mr. REID:

In the report made by the committee the government was authorized to ask the federal district commission to call the railways together with regard to a new union station and also with regard to the elimination of their tracks. I was wondering if that authorization had been carried out.

Mr. ST. LAURENT: That matter is under consideration, and I was about to state to the committee what has been done in that connection. Last December the matter was quite fully gone into and a tentative decision arrived at to set up three committees, one to be known as a national planning ccqmmittee, the second to be known as a parks committee and the third to be known as a railway committee. The national planning committee I understand has been authorized and would consist of seventeen members comprising the mayors of both Ottawa and Hull, with the

[Mr. St. Laurent.!

other members to be appointed by the federal district commission, not necessarily chosen only from among their own members, to advise on the acceptance or otherwise of this general plan as something to work to in future years. Some of the members are to be well qualified in the science and practice of town planning and to be chosen, because of the necessity for frequent meetings, largely from the cities of Ottawa, Montreal and Toronto. They are to be appointed by the federal district commission under authority of order in council P.C. 5634 of August 16, 1945. As I said, two of them are to be the mayors of Ottawa and Hull. The personnel of this committee is to serve on an honorary basis, getting only the reasonable out of pocket expenses incurred in attending meetings. I may add that from the outset the whole of the work that has been done by this Ottawa improvement commission, or the federal district commission, has been done entirely without remuneration, as a voluntary and very willing contribution of public-minded citizens.

Topic:   FEDERAL DISTRICT COMMISSION
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADDITIONAL COMMISSIONERS, TRANSFER OF CERTAIN JURISDICTION, AND GRANTING OF MONEY
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PC

George Russell Boucher

Progressive Conservative

Mr. BOUCHER:

A work of love.

Mr. ST. LAURENT: A work of love, to provide for the future generations of Canadians. The principal function of this national planning committee will be to meet as often as required for the purpose of laying down the broad general outline of the master plan for the capital district, with Mr. Greber acting in the capacity of a consultant, a capacity which I understood the hon. member for Eglinton to favour in his address last evening. The actual work is being done at the expense of the federal district commission by a staff which I understand now consists of thirteen members, architects, draftsmen and so forth, working under the general direction of Mr. Greber. This national planning committee will report to the government through the commission and will advise the commission as to the subsequent and gradual development of the general scheme, as and when conditions appear to make it opportune to undertake it.

The second committee which has not yet been formally set up by by-law of the federal district commission, but which is under consideration. could not operate effectively it was felt, until the general plan was available. This parks committee would have a membership of five persons chosen by the federal district commission from the federal capital area, persons who have in particular displayed a keen interest in the formation and development of Gatineau park. Its chief duty would be to advise as to the management and further development of Gatineau park and

Federal District Commission

other park areas, from the point of view of the maximum use the public could make of those facilities.

The third committee would be the railways committee. It was felt that there again there must be this general master plan as a thing to work to in the future before the railway committee could do any valuable or effective work toward the solution of that part of the problem. After the national planning committee have determined the extent of the changes which would ultimately be required in the railway lines in and around Ottawa, in order to conform with the requirements of a much larger capital city and development this committee would work out the details and the cost of such changes. I anticipate that would be something which it would be very important to have carefully gone into.

We have heard the old saying that Rome was not built in- a day. I do not think the capital of Canada is going to be built in a day. I do believe that no matter how desirable certain things might appear to be, they will have to wait until the opportune time-until they can be undertaken without putting any undue burden upon the economy of the nation.

This railways committee will be appointed by the federal district commission and will consist of the chosen representatives of the railway companies, representatives of Ottawa and Hull and also of the board of transport commissioners.

Before concluding these remarks I wish to say a word about the interesting and useful suggestion by the hon. member for New Westminster (Mr. Reid1) and the remarks and comments made upon it by other hon. members. I think everyone is in agreement that this federal area should be regarded as a thing of interest not only to the citizens of Ottawa and Hull but to the citizens of Canada generally.

The bill does propose that of a commission of fifteen members, at least five-and the number has not been limited to five-would be chosen as representing not the residents of the capital area but the residents of the rest of Canada. It would1 be possible, even with a commission of fifteen, to have a representative from each of the nine provinces. The object the government had in view in submitting the bill as it now stands was to have the Canadian public generally represented in this body.

If it is the feeling of the house that there should be a legislative requirement that at least one member of the commission would be ordinarily resident in each of the nine provinces, it does make the commission a little more unwieldly, inasmuch as there would be a commission of nineteen instead of the fifteen

as set out in the bill. But that is not a serious objection. I am sure that if there were a commission of nineteen there would be occasions when routine meetings would be held, at which times the whole nineteen would not feel they had to attend. But when there was anything of major importance they would feel it their dirty to respond.

Of course hon. members realize that as in the past this is going to be asked of them as a labour of love. They are going to be asked to serve without remuneration because they would be chosen by reason of their vision, outlook and public-spiritedness. We felt we might achieve that object by having regional representation. However, if hon. members feel it is preferable to have the nine provinces, as provincial units, separately represented, there will be no objection to accepting an amendment along those lines.

Having made these remarks I suggest that the committee might now be prepared to consider the terms of the legislation proposed. There may be other points which during the course of the discussion hon. members may wish to urge. They may feel sure that there is no desire to force anything upon the country. There is a desire to do what the predecessors of this government, to whatever party they belonged, have been doing for the last halfcentury, and to which I feel sure all future governments, composed of no matter which of the political parties, will also wish to add their respective contributions.

Topic:   FEDERAL DISTRICT COMMISSION
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADDITIONAL COMMISSIONERS, TRANSFER OF CERTAIN JURISDICTION, AND GRANTING OF MONEY
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PC

John Bracken (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. BRACKEN:

Mr. Chairman, with the general objectives of this measure I am sure a large proportion of hon. members will be in accord. Certainly this party is.

I should like to thank the Minister of Justice (Mr. St. Laurent) for the historical background he has given the committee respecting this project over a period of time stretching back for almost half a century. He has shown that this project has had the support of every government in power since 1899. He has shown, too, that during that time $13 million has been put into it. He has pointed out further that the development, which began by costing the state $60,000 a year, had recently cost more than $300,000 a year and, when this measure passes, is likely to cost $600,000 a year. I mention this only as a fact, and not necessarily as a criticism.

During the course of his remarks the minister said that there is nothing in the bill which states that the present plan is to make of this project a national war memorial. I was glad to hear the minister say that, because if it had been the idea of the government to change the original conception and plan a national war

Federal District Commission

memorial rather than the development of a federal capital area on its own merits I would have felt it necessary to move that any national funds set aside for a national war memorial should not all be spent in Ottawa, but be shared with the provincial capitals. But the minister has removed that doubt from our minds.

With respect to the national planning commission and other commissions or committees working in connection with this project, has there been any intimation by the government to these bodies that they are working now on a national war memorial rather than on a project for the development of a federal capital area?

Mr. ST. LAURENT: Not to my knowledge. My information is that the instructions to them have been to work out a general plan that might make possible the existence of a city two or three times the size of the present Ottawa, with the facilities and amenities which that kind of city would require. The question whether it be a national war memorial or not I think is more a matter of nomenclature than something that would make any change in the nature of the planning. There has not been I think any request that there be aything specific planned that would be similar, for instance, to the monument in Confederation square or to the peace tower. They have not been asked to plan anything that would be the centre of a national memorial scheme. They have been asked to plan for the possibilities of a national capital two or three times the size of the present Ottawa.

Topic:   FEDERAL DISTRICT COMMISSION
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADDITIONAL COMMISSIONERS, TRANSFER OF CERTAIN JURISDICTION, AND GRANTING OF MONEY
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PC

John Bracken (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. BRACKEN:

I am very glad to hear the observations of the minister. I think it is important that this house and the country should know what the purpose is behind this move by parliament. If it is for the development of a federal capital area in which the whole Canadian people can take pride, we are all behind it-I am speaking only for ourselves. But if it were to be a national war memorial involving the spending of large sums here and very little elsewhere we would oppose that feature.

Mr. ST. LAURENT: I can give the hon. member the assurance that we are not asking parliament to commit itself in one way or another in that regard at the present time. We are asking parliament to commit itself to the preparation of plans for the long-term development of a national capital area two or three times the size of the present city of Ottawa.

Topic:   FEDERAL DISTRICT COMMISSION
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADDITIONAL COMMISSIONERS, TRANSFER OF CERTAIN JURISDICTION, AND GRANTING OF MONEY
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PC

John Bracken (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. BRACKEN:

I commend the minister and the government for that attitude. The reason I raised the question was that there is an impression throughout the land that we are being asked to start in now to develop a great national war memorial in the nation's capital. The minister, in introducing the resolution on this matter, said, at page 4384 of Hansard:

As hon. members are aware, the government has taken action to have plans begun for the development of the national capital area as a national war memorial. A large part of the work to be carried out in this connection will devolve upon the federal district commission.

It is because of statements such as that, as well as statements credited to the Prime Minister, that this development would be a great national war memorial that I raised the question. I do not think I need labour it further.

The minister in justification of this project pointed out that this country is growing, that the nation's capital will grow, and that it is wise to plan to avoid so far as possible mistakes in the development of this area. I think that is a very desirable objective. He mentioned that there had possibly been mistakes in some of the cities' plans in the past, and he referred specifically to the railway terminals. I think there will be considerable agreement with him in that. But I do not think that all the mistakes were made in the distant past. I have heard people say that this Confederation square which has been developed since the federal district commisison came into being is not without criticism. That feeling is widespread. So that even though we proceed to plan in the way proposed we are not necessarily going to avoid mistakes in the future.

I have one question in regard to detail to ask the minister. In outlining the expenditures over the last forty-eight years for the development of this area, amounting to about $13,000,000, the minister indicated that the federal district commission administers certain sums which are voted to various departments. Are those in addition to the $13,000,000?

Mr. ST. LAURENT: No, those are included in the $13,000,000. I gave the details. There are votes made to certain departments, and the amounts are turned over for expenditure to the federal district commission to discharge the responsibilities for which the votes have been made by parliament. But all that is included in the figure I gave.

Topic:   FEDERAL DISTRICT COMMISSION
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADDITIONAL COMMISSIONERS, TRANSFER OF CERTAIN JURISDICTION, AND GRANTING OF MONEY
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PC

John Bracken (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. BRACKEN:

Thank you. Might I ask the minister if there is any more recent report from Mr. Greber with respect to his ideas for future plans?

4S97

Federal District Commission

Topic:   FEDERAL DISTRICT COMMISSION
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADDITIONAL COMMISSIONERS, TRANSFER OF CERTAIN JURISDICTION, AND GRANTING OF MONEY
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LIB

Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):

Mr. Greber left Ottawa ten days ago to go back to France after spending nearly five weeks here. He was directing the personnel of thirteen in the Hunter building, Canadian architects and draftsmen who under the direction of Mr. Greber are preparing the master plan. Mr. Greber will be back probably in three or four months and hopes to have a plan prepared for the approval of the federal authorities and the municipal authorities surrounding the capital city. Before any definite plan is decided upon all these bodies will be consulted and have an opportunity to express their views as to the usefulness of making changes in the suggested plan. The joint committee that sat in 1944 recommended the preparation of this plan, including the setting up of the committees which the Minister of Justice mentioned, a planning committee and a railway committee. These two committees have not yet been set up but the federal district commission has passed a by-law which was confirmed by order in council some time ago for the setting up of a planning committee composed of Canadian architects representing the two cities and even the surrounding municipalities across the river. This planning committee has been set on foot but it has not sat yet because Mr. Greber happens to be the consultant to that committee. On his return to Canada we hope that the members of that committee will have been appointed and that the committee will study with Mr. Greber and the local authorities the completion of this plan.

Topic:   FEDERAL DISTRICT COMMISSION
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADDITIONAL COMMISSIONERS, TRANSFER OF CERTAIN JURISDICTION, AND GRANTING OF MONEY
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PC

John Bracken (Leader of the Official Opposition)

Progressive Conservative

Mr. BRACKEN:

My only comment in connection with the remarks of the minister is that it is to be regretted that when we are considering a measure of this importance we could not have before us the latest report or recommendation by Mr. Greber. In that connection may I ask the minister in charge of the bill or the Minister of Public Works whether the federal district commission was responsible for the development of Confederation square?

Topic:   FEDERAL DISTRICT COMMISSION
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADDITIONAL COMMISSIONERS, TRANSFER OF CERTAIN JURISDICTION, AND GRANTING OF MONEY
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LIB

Alphonse Fournier (Minister of Public Works)

Liberal

Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):

I am glad the hon. member brought up that matter. Those who lived in Ottawa ten years ago will remember the situation at the corner of Sparks and Rideau streets. They will recall the old Russell hotel, the old post office and the other buildings that were there at that time. In those days Ottawa had a population of about

125,000 or 130,000, but during the past few years the population has increased by nearly

40,000. Compared with ten years ago, traffic in Ottawa to-day is about ten times as great. I do not say that the plan is perfect, but if that square had not been developed we would 63260-290

not be able to get through at all with our present traffic. I think those who lived in Ottawa in those days and remember how it was will bear me out. The hon. member for Carleton knows this city quite well and he will remember the corner of Sparks and Rideau street as it was ten years ago and I think he will admit how difficult it would have been to move traffic through there to-day if this had not been done.

Topic:   FEDERAL DISTRICT COMMISSION
Subtopic:   PROVISION FOR ADDITIONAL COMMISSIONERS, TRANSFER OF CERTAIN JURISDICTION, AND GRANTING OF MONEY
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August 10, 1946