February 7, 1947

PC

James MacKerras Macdonnell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):

These things are going to be settled some time. No sensible person believes that we are going to move through these next few years without heart-searching problems which will require the greatest unity that we can muster up. Not all the pleasant words in the speech from the throne conceal from the ministers themselves the tremendous problems they are facing. I quote Mr. Macdonald because he is a former colleague of the members of the government. He has asked- again and again why we cannot have that spirit. I do not know why. I say that sometime it will be done because we must have all people of good will and understanding in this country mobilized together if we are to arrive at what I suppose we should like to call our manifest destiny. I will say that if the Prime Minister will not do it, then there is another man in this house, my leader who sits here and who knows both sides of this question perhaps as no other man does in this country, who will do it when the time comes.

Mr. Speaker, I should like to add just a word or two briefly on the subject of -prison reform. I hesitate to make two speeches in one but this is my only chance, and perhaps I should make a small personal confession. I have a sort of pious interest in this because my father was chairman of a prison commission which reported some thirty-five years ago, and so far as I know the report which that commission made, while it was on a less ambitious scale than the succeeding reports, recommended things which were later recommended in the Biggar-Nickle-Draper report and more recently in the Archambault report.

I should like to read one sentence from the Biggar-Nickle-Draper report. The reason I read it is that-it is pleasant to speak on noncontroversial and non-partisan matters-I believe if bon. members would just take five minutes to consider what this sentence says we would not have fifteen months' delay in doing anything about the matter. We would not go on month after month neglecting it, leaving it while young men who -perhaps have made a slip and get into gaol are turned into adept criminals by associating with adept criminals. We would get on with it. I

should like to read this sentence which shocked me and I hope it will shock everyone in the house. It is very short:

Speaking for themselves, the members of the committee would not before undertaking this investigation have believed that the penitentiary system could have been as needlessly cruel as it in fact is . . .

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CCF

Alexander Malcolm Nicholson

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. NICHOLSON:

What year was that?

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PC

James MacKerras Macdonnell

Progressive Conservative

Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):

I am glad the hon. member asked that question. This report was written in 1921, twenty-six years ago. IVe have one report written nearly thirty-five years ago, another report written twenty-six years ago and a third report written eight years ago, and if my information is correct our penitentiary system has changed very little since 1868. It was a great shock to me to learn that.

I should like to say a word about prisoner rehabilitation. I hold in my hand a wire from the president of the Canadian penal association. I want to read briefly from it. Ho says:

No major penal reforms possible unless Ottawa takes action on Archambault recommendation No. 18 re unreformable prisoners. Everywhere I go it becomes more apparent that General Ralph Gibson is mixing humanity with efficiency in his commissioners' duties but he is hampered by no action on abovementioned Archambault recommendations, especially No. 18.

I should like to read recommendation 18: All incorrigible and intractable prisoners in the penitentiaries should be segregated in one institution.

That does not need a major change in present strategy. Surely it is not an overwhelming thing that could not be done. I remember that fifteen months ago in the house several members here present today urged that we get on with the matter. So far as I can discover, all we have is another annual report filled with figures but devoid of humanity. I suggest that there is no reason why this cannot be done. I hope that perhaps my few words may reach not only hon. members but also others outside. I can-

The Address-Mr. Campbell

not understand why social institutions and the churches do not descend on the house and insist that this thing shall be done in accordance with the tenor of the Archambault report which has now been before us for eight or nine years.

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CCF

Alexander Maxwell (Max) Campbell

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. MAX CAMPBELL (The Battlefords):

In speaking in this debate last night the hon. member for Edmonton East (Mr. Ashby) quoted from an English publication and outlined instances of farmers who for reasons that were not given were compelled to vacate their farms during the war years. The hon. member commented and said that the socialists said, "Out you go", and had given the farmer in question three weeks' notice to quit. He said that the socialists did that. Did they? Look at the record and see. He said that this happened during war time, and the tragedy to which he referred occurred on October 17, 1943, not 1946, not 1947, but 1943.

Who were in power at that time? This is in Great Britain. The Prime Minister was Winston Churchill, and no one would refer to him as a socialist; and his Minister of Agriculture was the Right Hon. Robert Hud* son, who together with Lord Wolverton was responsible for the domestic food supplies of war-torn Britain. And who made decisions as to what the farmers should grow or what discipline should be inflicted upon farmers who refused to do their part in relieving Britain's wartime necessities? They were farmers' committees and not bureaucrats, not socialists.

As my hon. friend knows, the most Conservative element in England's political life has always been the farmer, so that when he refers to a socialist as being responsible he is distorting the truth. It should be said right now that the policies of the new labour government of Britain with regard to agriculture and the use of the land have been enthusiastically endorsed by the national farmers union of England, which is remarkable, considering the fact that the members of the national farmers union have been, and were throughout the war, staunch supporter's of the British Tory party. The lessons they learned during the war have caused them now to support the enlightened policies of the British Labour government. Let me say to my hon. friend that he should be careful that he does not distort the facts to suit his own arguments. We saw a good deal of arguments of that kind in Saskatchewan not many years ago, when all sorts of charges were brought against the C.C.F. party in that province.

I would remind the members of this house that in spite of arguments of this kind, in spite of the fear which certain people tried to put into the people of Saskatchewan, there is a

C.C.F. government there today and the people are not losing their churches or their freedom. In fact, they are perfectly happy as far as the government of Saskatchewan is concerned.

I now come to what I really wanted to talk about. In the last session this house set up a committee on Indian affairs. The committee was to make a study of Indian affairs and members of this house were asked to go through their constituencies where there were Indians and Indian reserves and make a survey and come back and report to the committee. I did that.

There are seven reserves in my constituency and I am preparing a brief. I do not intend to go into the question at any length today because when I present my brief to the committee I shall have certain recommendations to make. But there are several problems which I think call for immediate attention and which should not have to wait until the committee brings down its report.

First of all, I would speak about the residential school in the town of Delmas in Saskatchewan. I visited this school and was hospitably received by the principal, Father Rouselle, who is a young man with a number of years' experience in the Duck Lake residential school, and who has many good ideas. He is interested in the Indians and I believe that, if given an opportunity, he would do some good work. My criticism of the school would be that it is badly overcrowded. There are some 109 pupils in the school and I would say that sixty-five would probably be about the right number that should be there.

A number of the pupils had measles when I was there and there was not a room of any kind in which these sick children could be isolated. I propose that the government make plans immediately to build a day school on one of the reserves, the Sweet Grass reserve, which is not very far from the town of Delmas, and a number of pupils now going to the Delmas school could go to the day school and relieve this overcrowding. I think that day school should be built, and preparations should be made now to have it built this summer so that the children might go there before the next fall term. We have had many fires during the last year. Only last Sunday the residential school at Lac la Ronge was burned. This is an old wooden building. The principal himself is afraid of fire. From what he told me, they are taking every precaution against fire, but the fact remains that the building is a firetrap and there is a danger that what we have seen in other places might occur again.

The Address-Mr. Campbell

Another problem that is immediate in that territory is the question of roads. This was brought to my attention when I made a trip with Doctor Head, the Indian doctor for that area, out to the Red Pheasant reserve. After we got into the reserve we found the roads were terrible. In rainy weather where there are potholes surrounded by bush, it is impossible for the doctor or anyone else to get through. The only way of getting through is by saddle horse. The farm instructor told me that if he could have a few machines provided-just a few small machines-they could fill in the worst of the holes themselves. The doctor's job is not an easy one in that huge area where he has 2,500 Indians to look after, driving thousands of miles every month, and it is imperative that the government make plans to start some kind of road programme in those reserves. It does not need to be extensive but it should be enough so that the doctor can get to patients.

Another question that has bothered a good many people who have to travel through reserves to get from one town or district to another is the condition of the roads. One bad road lies between the town of Paynton and the town of Cut Knife. That runs through two reserves, Poundmaker and the Little Pine reserve. The councils in that area will not accept responsibility for building roads in Indian reserves. They say it is a dominion government responsibility, and I agree with them. But if the government would make a grant- to the municipalities I think they would be willing to carry on that work.

I just want to mention briefly the living conditions of these Indians. Some of the reserves are better than others, but there are two of them at least, and I think probably four, where the living conditions are very much below normal. For instance, on the Red Pheasant reserve the diet consists principally of bannock and rabbits when the Indians can get them. These people depend for their livelihood on the sale of firewood. It takes them a day to gather a load. They may travel for three or four days before they can find a buyer and then they get three or four dollars a load when they do find one. So you can see that their standard of living cannot be very high.

I did not go through the reserves with the object of finding things to criticize, but I am just going to give the house an instance of departmental red tape. It has to do with the case of an old lady, sixty years of age. She had been born and brought up on the Sweet Grass reserve, but moved to another one twenty-eight miles distant. In accordance with the regulations, what has been done with

that woman since she moved there some few years ago is that she has been forced to travel twenty-eight miles by horse and wagon, when she could borrow them, every two weeks in order to get her ration and then drive back again to where she 'was living. I took the matter up with the agent, and I might say that he was cooperative; I am hoping that the situation has been corrected. But that is one of the things that is causing so much unrest among our Indian population.

Another matter that was brought to my attention by the minister of natural resources of Saskatchewan was that of liquor. I am not a teetotaler myself, but those hon. members who know anything about Indians know that when they get liquor they lose their heads to an even greater extent than some of us white people. Last year, especially in the Lac la Ronge district, there was a very good fur catch. The Indians sold those furs at good prices. There were no banks in the district, and there was no place for them to put their money so they kept it in their pockets. The result was that it was not long until white renegades and metis found out that the Indians had money, so they obtained and sold to the Indians supplies of liquor of all kinds-bootleg whiskey and, worst of all, lemon extract or vanilla extract, or whatever they could get. Even some of the storekeepers in the districts sold the Indians extracts in very large quantities, in quantities that should certainly not be sold by any storekeeper to anj-body, because the only use to which those quantities could be put would be for drinking purposes. The minister of natural resources of Saskatchewan told me that he was writing or had written to the Post Office Department asking them to provide an opportunity for these Indians to put their money in local post offices, or, in other words, to start post office savings accounts in those areas so that the Indians would have an opportunity to put their extra monej' in them.

I do not want to detain the house very much longer, but there was one little story that I was told which I think might interest hon. members. It was in connection with diet. I heard it at a meeting of old-timers who call themselves the historical society in the town of Battleford. We were discussing Indian problems. I was telling them what I thought the Indians should have in the way of diet, that we should see that they had milk, vegetables, and the kind of food that would -build up bodily strength. One of the members there who had been principal of an Indian residential school told me that a few years ago they had, at the Anglican school at Lac la Ronge, two

The Address-Mr. Campbell

children by the name of Ross who developed tuberculosis. These children kept getting worse and worse. The officials of the school decided that they were going to die and that possibly the best thing they could do with them would be to send them home and let them die there. So they sent them home. The principal, some four months later, happened to be in the district and went to see what had happened to these children. He found out that when they got home they had been fed on fish heads and bannock and had become fat and regained their strength. I think that is a remarkably good illustration of what the residential school sometimes does to Indian children. The children are taken away from their natural environment where they have been absolutely free, and are put in the residential school where they are under control and are given different kinds of food. I think the main reason for the sickness of these children was just that they were lonesome and pining away.

Now, Mr. Speaker, I could go on at great length with this Indian story, but I do not think I should at this time. I just want to sum up by saying that I want to see this government build a school on the Sweet Grass Indian reserve this summer, and I want them to do something about a road programme in and through the reserves. I should also like to have the Minister of Justice (Mr. Ilsley) see that orders are given to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to put a stop to the exploitation of the Indians by renegade whites and metis. In order to do that, I believe that the Royal Canadian Mounted police force will have to be substantially increased before they can cope with the menace of the liquor traffic among the North American Indians.

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SC

Norman Jaques

Social Credit

Mr. NORMAN JAQUES (Wetaskiwin):

Mr. Speaker, tradition has it that speakers in this debate should congratulate the mover and the seconder of the motion. Therefore I am glad to take this opportunity to do so. Since coming to Ottawa this session I read a very interesting article in Maclean's by the hon. member for Quebec East. In his article he says that what is needed is not a change of leadership but a realignment of policy. This debate on the speech from the throne is a most excellent opportunity to consider the various policies which confront the Canadian people.

Mr. ST. LAURENT: Would my hon. friend allow me to make just one correction? I think I get sufficient laurels as Secretary of State for External Affairs and do not need those which belong to others. The hon. member referred

to the hon. member for Quebec East. I am sure he meant the hon. member for Quebec South.

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Norman Jaques

Social Credit

Mr. JAQUES:

I stand corrected, Mr. Speaker. I meant the hon. member for Quebec South (Mr. Power). I merely mentioned it because I think this debate does offer the best opportunity to discuss the policies which are before the Canadian people.

The Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) in his speech the other day said that no party on this side of the house could command sufficient confidence of the people to form a government. I think that is true; and I think it is also true of the government side of the house. If there were an election tomorrow I very much doubt if any party could command a much better majority than is enjoyed by the present government. The reason is not that the leaders of any of these groups or parties are discredited. It is because this floor, which separates the government side of the house from this side, is not a true division.

If it were possible to look into the minds and, if you like, the souls, of hon. members, and if one could read their innermost thoughts I feel reasonably sure that some hon. members opposite would be more happy and comfortable on this side, and that some on this side would be more happy over there.

I would ask this question: Quo vadis? Which way are we going, or which way do we propose to go at the present time? Is it to be security with freedom or social bondage without freedom? We in this corner offer the Canadian people social credit instead of social bondage. We are not particular who does the job. We shall be only too glad to get behind and endorse any party, no matter what the name may be, that will set Canada on the way to social credit-security with social freedom-instead of continuing the way we are going at the present time, and that is toward social bondage and insecurity.

This is a good time for Canadians to sit down and count their blessings. In the last year or so I have been fortunate enough to travel, and not only in Canada. I spent a winter in Great Britain, and in the last twelve months I have paid several visits to the United States. I am sure that, today we Canadians can congratulate ourselves, when we compare our conditions with those of the vast majority of people in other parts of the world. When we realize the conditions under which the vast majority of the people throughout the world are living todayr, we Canadians should be glad to get down on our knees and thank God we live in Canada. That is the way I feel about it, anyway.

The Address

Mr. Jaques

In order to preserve our blessings and freedoms, I shall not permit myself to be intimidated by any subversive forces which may single me out for their abuse. The blessings we enjoy in Canada cannot be attributed to any one party in the house; still less can they be attributed to socialism of any brand.

Surely we have enough examples in the world today to know that the imposition of socialism in any of its forms has inevitable results-loss of freedom and a lower standard of living. We Canadians enjoy our blessings as a result of freedom enjoyed and private enterprise employed by our forefathers; and it is that heritage that they handed down to us which we, above all other people, with the possible exception of our neighbours to the south, are blessed to enjoy today.

My close relatives live in England. Three years ago I spent the winter over there. Times were bad then, but my brothers and sisters who are there tell me that they are infinitely worse today, and that they look as though they will be even worse than that in the future.

The freedoms we enjoy in this country are under steady attack; let us never forget that. The chief enemy we have to face is the philosophy of Marxism, whether it be advocated by communists or by their fellow travellers. I have been attacked in the press, not only in Canada but in the United States, for my association with organizations which in the United States are known as Christian nationalists. I make no apology here for believing in Christian nationalism, andi I regard anyone who attacks the principles of Christian nationalism as an enemy of this and every other country which still preserves its freedom.

In order to settle any dispute, let me quote the ten principles on which Christian nationalism -was built:

1. The preservation of America as a Christian nation.

2. Expose and fight communism.

3. Safeguard American liberty against the menace of bureaucratic fascism.

4. Maintain a government set-up by the majority which abuses no minority and is abused by no minority.

5. Protect and earmark national resources for our own citizenry first.

6. Maintain the George Washington foreign policy of friendship with all nations, trade with all nations, entangling alliance with none.

7. Oppose a world government and a superstate.

8. Prove that the worker, the farmer, the business man, the veteran, the unemployed, the aged and infirm can enjoy more abundance under the true American system than any alien system now being proposed by foreign propagandists.

9. Stop immigration until all veterans have jobs.

10. Abolish the corrupt money system.

Those are the ten points of the American

organization of Christian nationalists. They might be modified to some extent to meet Canadian conditions; we might not be so particular about immigration, but by and large I endorse those principles. I was glad of the opportunity last December to speak on their platform in Los Angeles.

I have been accused by a section of the press which I would refer to as being a part of the red network and the pink fellow travellers, of indulging in anti-Semitism and fascism. I propose to spend a few minutes dealing with those charges and seeing what they really amount to. Certain members of the press and radio in the United States have been quoted in Canada as speaking against me, Walter Winch ell being one. I will not defile the air of this chamber by giving Winchell his right name, but they mentioned John Roy Carlson, whose real name is Derounian. This man wrote a book called "Undercover", which was published by Dutton and Company. The publishers have been sued from time to time and have been forced to pay heavy damages. I had the privilege of sharing a platform in Chicago with a gentleman who obtained $10,000 damages from the publishers of "Undercover", Mr. Jeremiah Stokes, a prominent citizen of Salt Lake City. In giving his judgment against Carlson and the publishers, Mr. Justice Barnes is reported as follows:

This book charges the plaintiff (Robnett) was disloyal, anti-Semitic, and a nazi agent. During the entire course of the trial, I never heard any evidence to sustain any of these charges. I think this book was written by a wholly irresponsible person who would write anything for a dollar. I think the book was published by a publisher who would do anything for a dollar. I don't believe any investigation of this author was made by the publishers to the extent they say there was, because they cared for the dollar more than they did for the almighty truth. I wouldn't believe this author if he was under oath and I think he and the publisher are as guilty as any one who was ever in this court before.

That is plain English and I think it will be enough to settle Comrade Roy Carlson, alias Derounian, alias half a dozen other names; it should be enough to settle his claim of being the upholder of the truth or anything good. If certain newspaper men and correspondents -I dare say this applies to some members of this press gallery-think Walter Winchell speaks for decent Americans, then their education has been sadly neglected.

The Address-Mr. Jaques

I addressed three meetings in Los Angeles last December where we averaged 1,800 attendance. There were from twenty to thirty people on the platform, including half a dozen minister's of the gospel. Anyone who attended those meetings and who met the members of the audience or those who spoke on the platform would know that it would be impossible to get a finer collection of men and women. One of the leading Baptist ministers of the city of Los Angeles officially opened the meeting and blessed it with his prayers.

However, thanks to the smearbund and other such ragtags and bobtails, such meetings are denounced as being rabble rousers.

Last fall a gentleman by the name of Albert Kahn visited Canada, and I should like to quote from a Vancouver paper of last October to tell the house some of the things which he was kind enough to say to his Canadian audience. He said:

In Poland-"General Anders" soldiers secretly flown in from Italy, are responsible for more than 2,000 Jewish massacres in the past year; some of them bore British intelligence service papers.

Isn't that a nice little innuendo?

In Greece-Old men and women in concentration camps being starved to force their democratic partisan menfolk from the hills.

Then he makes this statement:

Fascism is immensely strong in the United States today, and there is intense anti-Semitism. Jews cannot ignore the fact that this may not end in baiting and beatings, but rather in death chambers. Anything that happens in the United States is reflected in Canada, and Jews must fight fascism by supporting Russia through the trade union movement and militant progressive action in all political issues.

There you have the real truth of antiSemitism. There is no anti-Semitism in Canada and, to say there is, is to libel the Canadian people. In the People's Weekly, the official publication of the C.C.F. in Edmonton, of January 18, 1947, Mr. Clifford Lee in a featured article, says:

In Canada anti-Semitism is stronger now than it was in Germany in 1930. A recognized political party, the governing one in this province, openly solicits votes on this appeal in the places it knows will tolerate bits of Hitlerism.

According to this, the Canadian people are worse than the Germans were in 1930. The truth about so called anti-Semitism is that it is a communist racket, the dirtiest racket in America today, a racket that muzzles the press and silences members of parliament and members of congress. He says that anti-Semitism is rampant in Canada today, worse than it was in Germany. What complaints have the Jews to make of their treatment in Canada

[Mr. Jaques.1

or anywhere else under British rule or under the rule of the United States? Go where you will and you will find the Jews prospering as they have never prospered in any other country. But let any man get up publicly and make a stand against communism, and what is the result-if he is able to get people to listen and attract a following? Immediately he is called a fascist. According to these communists and their fellow-travellers, if a man is not a communist he must be a fascist, and if he is a fascist he must be anti-Semitic. That is the communist "smear." That is their answer. I just take this opportunity to say that I am not going to be silenced by the gutter press or the guttersnipes of the radio.

Let me quote a bulletin of the national economic council of the United States. It is headed "Red Terror" and says:

Unless groups like the economic council expose and fight these desperate men, we Americans will find, as people in other countries have found, that only one step beyond the "smear" and defamation squad is the liquidation squad, and unless men and women all over the United States support patriotic groups there will be no groups with knowledge and guts enough to fight.

Coming to Ottawa recently, I addressed a public meeting in Regina. Originally I had intended to address just a local social credit group meeting, but at a public meeting that was held some time before and addressed by the hon. member for Peace River (Mr. Low), the chairman announced that another speaker would be there a week later and would attempt to show the link between socialism, communism, and all these other isms. Immediately the challenge was taken up by the C.C.F. who were there, and they demanded to appear on the platform and share in the debate. That request was granted, and I received a wire asking me if I would consent to it. But when the C.C.F. learned that I was to be the speaker-

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CCF

Clarence Gillis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. GILLIS:

They got frightened!

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Norman Jaques

Social Credit

Mr. JAQUES:

Oh, no. They refused to share the platform with me. That was their privilege of course, but I was a little curious to know the reason. When the meeting took place not only did the C.C.F. refuse to share the platform but they refused to come into the hall. There was not a single C.C.F. member in the hall that evening, I was told. But-and here is the point-the provincial leaders of the communists were there in force, and they were there for the express purpose of putting me on the spot. Now you can see why it was the C.C.F. made themselves absent; for, had they opposed me, then they must have supported the communists, and had they opposed

The Address-Mr. Jaques

the communists, which they claim they do, they must have supported me. They were nicely on the spot, and that is how they saved their faces.

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Clarence Gillis

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. GILLIS:

I think the answer is that they would have been wasting their time to attend.

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Norman Jaques

Social Credit

Mr. JAQUES:

You waste plenty of it here. As a matter of fact last session I said you were fellow travellers and I have not heard anything since-in fact, everything I have heard and seen from that day to this only proves it to the hilt.

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Joseph William Burton

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. BURTON:

You are wrong.

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Norman Jaques

Social Credit

Mr. JAQUES:

I am not wrong, and I can prove it. Let the C.C.F. show me one policy on which they have not agreed with the communists.

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CCF

Frederick Samuel Zaplitny

Co-operative Commonwealth Federation (C.C.F.)

Mr. ZAPLITNY:

You would not understand.

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Norman Jaques

Social Credit

Mr. JAQUES:

I understand too much for you, my hon. friend. The C.C.F. were on the spot at that meeting. If they had put in an appearance they would have had to support the communists against me, or they would have had to oppose the communists and support me. I answered questions that the communists at that meeting put to me for one hour and forty-five minutes. They asked me questions about butcher Franco, Mihailovich, and so on. I was asked, how did I explain my defence in this house of butcher Franco? My answer was this. I do not defend butcher Franco or butcher anybody else, but I do defend the right of the Spanish people to manage their own affairs and settle their own problems just as I defend the right of us Canadians to settle our own affairs without interference from outside. Speaking of butcher Franco, I said, "He may be a butcher. I do not know. But if he is, he is only a retail butcher." I said that the communist boss is in the wholesale butcher business and desires to have a world monopoly of butchering and fellow-travellers are only too anxious to help him to get into that position.

Then there was Mihailovich, whom I defended, I am proud to say, in this house last summer as soon as he was captured. I would recommend to hon. members a book by David Martin called "Ally Betrayed", which goes into che whole case of Mihailovich. I should like to quote from the foreword by Rebecca West, the novelist:

They lied, and knew they lied. Never was there such a debauch of lying as the communist campaign against Mihailovich; and nearly the whole of the left wing, communist or not, opened its poor silly mouth and S3166-15

swallowed the revolting mass. I am a socialist. But I have to admit that in the last few years the left wing has shown itself just about as good a custodian of the sacred principle of liberty, fraternity, and equality, as the watchdog who was found holding a lamp in his mouth for the burglar who was cracking the safe. They should have recognized this campaign for what it was. and should have realized that the men who carried it on were as likely to give the people political and economic freedom as A1 Capone and John Dillinger.

There is one other book I might recommend to hon. members if they have not read it, namely, "Animal Farm", by George Orwell. It is a small book but a masterpiece of satire.

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Mr. COLD WELL@

A very good story.

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SC

Norman Jaques

Social Credit

Mr. JAQUES:

I only hope that every hon. member will read it. It is a book which could be read as a fable by children and as a satire by their parents and grandparents.

The hon. member for Peace River suggested that parliament should set up a committee to examine into un-Canadian activities to correspond with a similar committee of congress which has done a most excellent piece of work. I hope that that suggestion will be acted upon. If it is I shall be only too glad to appear as a witness and testify before it. I have nothing to hide.

The other day somebody sent me a copy of "The Nation", which is a United States leftist, fellow traveller paper. I should say that it is communist; I do not know what else you can call it. It contains an article by Carey McWilliams, called "The Cross and the Circle". I may say that the Cross and the Circle is the symbol which we Social Crediters use on our literature. He devotes most of his article to an attack on the Quebec Social Credit movement or the Union des Electeurs. He tries to prove, of course, that they are fascist and anti-Semitic. He condemns me for my association with the Christian nationalists and he says:

Although they have been asked by the leaders of Canadian Jewry on numerous occasions to repudiate Jaques, officials of the Social Credit movement of Alberta have thus far declined to do so. Jaques. they reply, "is a sick man . . . he has heart disease . . he may die any moment."

It is comforting to know that, and I can only hope that I can say with Mark Twain on a somewhat similar occasion, the report is somewhat exaggerated. But whether it is exaggerated or not, whether I die in the next minute or not, so long as I am a member of this house I intend to defend the rights, privileges and the freedom of the Canadian people, and I do not intend to be silenced by any red network, by any agent of the antidefamation league or by any other racket,

The Address-Mr. Mclvor

because that is what they are, communist rackets. I am going to fight communism so long as I have the strength to stand up and fight.

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LIB

Daniel (Dan) McIvor

Liberal

Mr. DANIEL McIVOR (Fort William):

Mr. Speaker, there are a great many things for which we are grateful. First, I am sure we are grateful that we are living and are in good health. We send our thanks to Him whom Mr. Speaker addresses respectfully every day. I vwas thankful, too, that the speech from the throne contained references to the old age pensioners. I was grateful for that because I am one who knows something of the condition under which many of the old pensioners live, and I am convinced that if this government is in power long enough some day it will pay $50 a month to the old age pensioners. I do not think that would be even enough. To my way of thinking, the pension schemes of Canada should all be united' under one head, railway pensioners and all other pensioners. They should be made compulsory and contributory because we know that there are men who earn big money and they get rid of it very easily. If they had to save to take care of their old age it would be a great benefit to them. I have known railway workers who had served to within one or two months of receiving a pension but did not get any, and I have felt that that is not fair.

Amongst railroad workers there is an organization which is advocating a contributory national pension, and I think the government will give it kindly consideration. I should like the Minister of Veterans Affairs (Mr. Mackenzie) to take notice of a group of civil service workers who served in the last war but who were not members of the civil service until after the war was over. These men and women, especially men, because there were not very many women in the last war, should have their cases considered1 and should get credit for the time they risked their lives overseas.

Yesterday I was pleased1 to hear the Minister jf Mines and Resources (Mr. Glen) give expression to public policy in reply to a criticism from the hon. member for Winnipeg North (Mr. Stewart). The government is well advised to be alive to the needs of Canada and to the opportunities of securing splendid people who are willing to come here and who would make good' citizens.

I had a little trouble in getting affidavits' to try to get a young man out from Belgium who fought in the Polish army against Germany, who was taken prisoner and escaped, which shows that he had a lot of initiative and would take a lot of risk. Then he fought in the Russian army against Germany. After the war

[Mr. Jaques.l

was over, he was sent back to his own home in Poland. When he went back he could not find the address of any of his kith and kin; his father, mother, uncles, aunts, brothers and sisters were all murdered. tHe was even- denied a place to call his own, even the place on which his house was built when it was destroyed. That man would make a grateful citizen of Canada and I am thankful that now he will qualify.

I am sure we were glad to see the widening of the Immigration Act to include others. I have had a plea sent to me that the citizens of India should have the same opportunity as the citizens of other countries should have when they come to Canada from Europe or from any part of the commonwealth of nations. I believe they should be treated in the same way.

As an Indian chief, Mr. Speaker, I think the Indians of Canada are entitled to become citizens of Canada. There is nobody who has any better right to become citizens of Canada than the Indians, and they will make good ones. I taught in an Indian school; I served on church committees where Indian relationships were discussed, and I have found the Indians, boys and girls, men and women, willing to cooperate with those who were willing to help. I think it is high time that the government granted our Indians the rights of citizenship.

I would be remiss in my duty if I did not say something about the Thunder Bay district. We have two progressive cities there. I think the resources of the Thunder Bay district excel the resources of any other district of the same size in Canada.

Farmers in this house know we have a splendid farming district that produces *well. We have perhaps the greatest potato yield in Canada. Our potatoes are good, even better than those that come from the maritimes. We have a 500-bushels-to-the-acre club, and I should like to know how many members in this house can say that there are farmers in their districts who can go over 600 bushels to the acre. This productivity is due in part to the energetic efforts of the farmer representatives of our community and of our agricultural sub-station.

We have also fishing. Of course it does not compare with the fishing industry on the Atlantic or the Pacific, but if any of you have ever tasted lake Superior trout you will not want fish from any other place. It has a taste all its own and when you get one bite it calls for another.

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PC

Arthur Leroy Smith

Progressive Conservative

Mr. SMITH (Calgary West):

It's your last.

The Address-Mr. Melvor

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LIB

Daniel (Dan) McIvor

Liberal

Mr. McIVOR:

I heard a man. in a public meeting at Fort William declare that we could take care of a great deal of the unemployment of Canada if our natural resources and our lumbering industry could be developed. Take our mining. It is growing, and since the United States need iron ore they will be coming to the Thunder Bay district for it. While Steep Rock is in the neighbouring constituency it is close to us, and there you get the finest grade of hematite ore produced on this continent. The hon. member for Davenport (Mr. MacNicol) will support me, I believe, when I say that the Steep Rock mine is producing in such a way as to command the respect of all mining interests in Canada.

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PC

John Ritchie MacNicol

Progressive Conservative

Mr. MacNICOL:

And the United States.

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February 7, 1947