The DEPUTY CHAIRMAN:

When this bill was last considered we had reached section 7.

On section 7

Line of railway described.

Mr. GILLIS:

Like everyone else who has been talking about private bills this evening,

Private Bills

it is not my intention to hold up this bill. Nevertheless that is the effect it has. The last time we discussed this bill I was one of those who were not satisfied with its going through without our being given an explanation of the wide and sweeping powers contained therein. I suggested at that time that I should like to have an assurance from the hon. member who is piloting the bill through the house that this is a Canadian company, that it is not a subsidiary of some company in the United States. I should like him to tell the committee the personnel of the board of directors, whether they are Canadians, whether they are tangled up with other interlocking companies in Canada and the United States.

Next, I should like either the hon. member or the Minister of Transport to tell the committee why it is necessary to set aside three sections of the Railway Act in order to set up this railway company.

Mr. RINFRET:

The hon. member's first question was with reference to sweeping powers. There has been some talk about these sweeping powers, but I am afraid there has been some confusion between this company and the one which has obtained from some government concessions or leases in connection with natural resources in the northern part of Quebec and in Labrador. The company which has obtained concessions or leases from the provincial government is a distinct entity from this railway company.

The company which obtained the concessions and leases is the Hollinger Consolidated Gold Mines Limited, and I can assure the hon. member that that is practically a wholly owned Canadian company. A total of 9,768 shareholders residing in Canada hold 3,913,084 shares; 2,063 shareholders residing in the United States hold 495,470 shares; 39 shareholders residing in the United Kingdom hold 5,571 shares and 306 shareholders residing elsewhere hold 505,875 shares. The shareholders residing in Canada represent 80 per cent of the total shareholders and they hold 79-5 per cent of the 4,920,000 shares outstanding.

The directors of this company are Mr. Jules Timmins, Montreal; Mr. Leo Timmins, Montreal; Mr. Murdoch, Toronto; Mr. John I. Rankin, Montreal; Mr. Allen A. McMartin; Mr. N. A. Timmins, Montreal; Mr. D. N. Dunlap, Toronto; Mr. Alphonse Raymond, Montreal; Mr. T. Waite, Toronto. I think that answers the questions asked by the hon. member.

Mr. GILLIS:

I asked why it was necessary to set aside three sections of the Railway Act in order to legalize this company.

Mr. CHEVRIER:

To what section is the hon. member referring?

Mr. GILLIS:

To section 9.

Mr. CHEVRIER:

We are on section 7, but perhaps I could answer the hon. member's question. I shall not deal specifically with section 9, because reference is made to this in other sections as well. This is a bill to incorporate a railway company to construct a railroad from a point on the north shore of the St. Lawrence river to a point in northern Quebec and it must be subject to the terms of the Railway Act. The operations of this railway must be subject to the jurisdiction of some board, which in this case happens to be the board of transport commissioners. Section 368 of the Railway Act provides that a company seeking the powers set out in section 11 of this bill, namely, to generate, acquire, use, transmit and distribute electrical energy, must submit itself to the jurisdiction and procedure of the board of transport commissioners. Section 368 of the Railway Act is rather lengthy and I should not like to read it but it makes tolls, rates and charges subject to the jurisdiction of the board. I have dealt with only one part of the question asked by the hon. member and, before dealing with the others, perhaps I should wait until we reach the particular section.

Mr. SMITH (Calgary AVest):

I am wholeheartedly in favour of this bill, for the simple reason that these people-I do not care whether they come from the United States; that would make no difference to me-are going to spend millions of dollars in this country to provide employment. All they are asking from this House of Commons is the right to build a railway; any lands and so forth that are involved belong to the province of Quebec. As far as this house is concerned, we can do one of two things; we can talk this bill out or vote against it, but in doing so let us all remember that we have been talking about full employment and if we talk this bill out we shall be killing the very thing of which we have said we are in favour.

Mr. IRVINE:

I should like to make a few remarks on this bill and I do not want to kill it.

Do not kill it with kindness.

Mr. IRVINE:

I agree in part with the state

ment just made by the hon. member for Calgary AArest that we need railways and development and, if we cannot do it in any other way than by creating a monster profit corporation, it is better to do it in that way than not at all. To that extent I agree with him whole-

Private Bills

heartedly, but I want to take this opportunity to say that from my point of view I think it is a regrettable way of doing it. There is a decided connection in my mind between the existence of iron ore in the territory and the building of this railroad. If there is anything Canada needs more for its industries than iron ore, I do not know what it is.

Then let us develop it.

Mr. IRVINE:

Exactly, and I think this is a case where the federal government should have set aside these resources for the good of Canada and seen to it that this ore was brought to Canadian industry for the service of the people of Canada.

Let me say next that, while this government and the opposition champion-

Mr. RINFRET:

May I interrupt the hon. gentleman to point out that the resources to which he is referring are a matter of provincial rights on the one hand and the rights of Labrador on the other.

Mr. IRVINE:

I understand that there are provincial rights and other rights in Labrador, but the federal government has the right to set apart whatever it considers is for the general benefit of Canada. It could have done that and I believe it should have done that.

Mr. MITCHELL:

You cannot set apart something that does not belong to you.

Mr. IRVINE:

My hon. friend can argue that out with the Minister of Justice, and I think he will find that the point of view I have expressed is correct. At any rate let me go on to say that I am not presuming to criticize the government of Quebec for the action it has taken. That action is perfectly in keeping with what other governments throughout Canada have done throughout the whole history of Canada in granting licences to these companies. I think within the years to come there will be ample reason for objecting to what is now being done in this house, and I wish to present my views just as other hon. members do.

Free private enterprise in which some hon. members believe so ardently seems to be completely wiped out in this gigantic project. Take, for example, the Hollinger Consolidated Gold Mines Limited with two subsidiaries, the North Shore and the Labrador Company. Let us look at the privileges they get. Hollinger Consolidated, North Shore branch, has the exclusive right-

Mr. RINFRET:

May I again interrupt to say that they are not getting those privileges by this bill or from this government. They have been given them by another government.

Mr. IRVINE:

I appreciate that. I am merely showing that there is a connection between what has been done by another government and what this government is about to do. Without the one the other is useless. It is all very well to talk here of a jait accompli and say you have to go on with it. I do not have to; my hon. friend may have to. I have a right to my objection and to my vote against this bill. I have a viewpoint and I am going to express it. I am not claiming any privilege that every other hon. member does not have. I want to show the privileges which have been granted to this company in the name of free private enterprise.