Mr. QUELCH:

There is another question I should like to ask; maybe the minister has replied to this. Various hon. members have quoted budgets. I have heard them quoted from all sides of the house, but I have not yet heard the minister quote a budget upon which this $30 a month is founded. Has the minister filed a budget which he considers would provide an adequate standard of living for the people at the rate of $30 a month? The government must have a budget which will show what people can do on $30 a month. They may, first of all, have given consideration to how much it takes an individual to live on. I should like the minister to table now a budget showing how much can be spent on clothing, how much on housing, how much on food, and so forth, on a pension of $30 a month. I think we should have that budget tabled before we leave this subject.

Mr. MARTIN:

I have not one. That question is one that cannot be answered blithely.

I do not say, and no one says, that $30 a

month is enough for a person to live on. I have gone through so much misery in my own life that I can say that.

Mr. QUELCH:

You have not reached seventy years yet. Wait until you reach seventy.

Mr. MARTIN:

I am talking about my own experiences. There are some hon. members who know that I know something about this. I will say no more than that. That is why I made my reply to the hon. member for Vancouver East. An old age pension in this country was never intended to cover the complete cost of living; it is a maintenance grant. That is all it can do.

Mr. QUELCH:

Never meant for what?

Mr. MARTIN:

To live completely on. That is what I am saying.

Mr. QUELCH:

What is an individual going to do who has no other means of livelihood?

Mr. MARTIN:

That is another matter, and I say it is one with which I am as much concerned as anyone, and perhaps more than most.

What did they do before?

Mr. QLELCH:

A lot of them died young. I believe every member of this house could cite examples in his own constituency of people who died before they would otherwise have died because they did not receive an income which made it possible for them to obtain a proper standard of living. Are we to understand that the ministry is not prepared to place before the committee any form of budget which might enable these people to maintain a reasonable standard of living? I do not ask for a budget to give them an elaborate standard, but enough to maintain them in a state of decency.

Mr. MARTIN:

I said I would endeavour to deal with that matter.

Mr. QUELCH:

When?

Mr. MARTIN:

The next time we meet here.

Mr. NICHOLSON:

In view of the fact that the minister has indicated that he will give consideration to some of the suggestions on this side, might we not allow- this section to stand until we meet again?

Mr. MARTIN:

No.

Mr. NICHOLSON:

If the section carries there is no possibility of favourable consideration being given to the proposals made on this side of the house I might say that, had

Old Age Pensions

the amendment moved by the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre carried this afternoon, it was proposed that we would proceed by asking that section 4 be further amended by deleting the word "seventy" from line 25 and substituting the word "sixty-five" and, also along the line of the argument put forward by the hon. member for Swift Current, that section 4 be amended by deleting the words "six hundred" from line 39 and substituting the words "seven hundred and fifty," also by deleting the words "one thousand and eighty" from lines 43 and 44 and substituting instead thereof the words "fifteen hundred"; also deleting the words "twelve hundred" from lines 47 and 48 and substituting the words "eighteen hundred".

Mr. WARREN:

Why not have Saskatchewan do that? There is nothing to hinder them.

Mr. NICHOLSON:

I am glad the hon.

member for Renfrew North has raised the question he did. The other night I could not hear him in this part of the chamber. I am glad to discuss Saskatchewan's responsibilities with respect to the old people. We recognize that we live in one of the depressed areas in Canada. The dominion bureau of statistics support the claim that Saskatchewan and the maritimes are regarded as depressed areas as compared with Ontario and Quebec. The Minister of Justice will bear me out that when he was charged with the responsibility of raising money for victory loans he started one year by asking for $8 million in Saskatchewan, as compared with $240 million in the city of Toronto. He knew he had to get the money where the money was. He recognized that the people of Saskatchewan were as loyal as in any other part of the country and that we gave according to our ability.

Mr. MITCHELL:

Will the hon. member say that all the people of Saskatchewan are in a depressed area?

Mr. NICHOLSON:

I am not saying that everyone in Saskatchewan is in poverty, but statistics indicate that Saskatchewan has, throughout this century, poured great streams of wealth into Montreal and Toronto, while we could not retain for ourselves that standard of living which we think we should have.