Mr. MacINNIS:

I should like to add a word to what has been already said by the other hon. members from British Columbia. This is not the first time that the shortage of dredges on the Pacific coast has been drawn to the attention of the minister. As a layman I do not think it is up to me to say that that shortage exists; but it is up to the minister to have investigations made and

(Mr. Herridge.]

to produce the information that would prove beyond all doubt that the dredges on the Pacific coast are adequate to meet the need.

I should like to point out to the minister, as the hon. member for New Westminster has already done, that the Fraser river is an important transportation artery and that it will become more so as the years go by. Furthermore, because of the nature of the country, it is a river which fills in very quickly with the silt flowing dowm from the mountains. The minister should have the conditions there investigated as early as possible. We realize that during the war, work of this kind could not be undertaken; that

is, it could not be undertaken if it took workers and materials away from war needs. But- the war has been over for two years, and there has been ample opportunity for estimating the need and making provision for meeting

it. I wanted to say these few words before the minister replied to the statements that have been made.

Mr. FULTON:

One last word on this matter, if I may join the procession; I should like to deal with what was said by the hon. member for Kootenay East, who referred to the Arrow lakes where for some time they have been doing work to keep open the wharf and jetty to Arrowhead. So much silt is brought down by the Columbia river that they have to dredge to such an extent that all they can do is take the silt out and put it on top of the pile. There is so much there already that it slides back; consequently it is sort of vicious circle into which they are getting now. An alternative suggestion has been made to move the jetty. There is an old wharf alongside a lumber mill that is kept in operation. If they moved out a matter of some four hundred yards it would take the wharf out of the main current of the river so that the silt being brought down by the river would not pile up alongside the wharf, and this might eliminate the need for all further dredging. I was down there between sessions and I looked at this and spoke to the man in charge of the dredge. He verified that all they are doing is taking the silt out and dumping it. They have so much silt there that is sliding in again. I wonder whether the minister would have an expert look carefully into that question to see if the wharf cannot be permanently moved out.

Mr. FOURNIER (Hull) :

It is apparent that hon. members from British Columbia agree on this question. Nearly all of them have spoken on dredging, and they have all complained of the lack of plant and equipment to do the job. The policy of the department has been

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to have its own dredges and let out contracts for the remainder of the work to be done. We have three, dredges out in British Columbia, Nos. 303, 305 and 309. We gave out contracts to two or three other firms. 'Last year one of the dredges of one firm was destroyed, but I understand there is still the Northern Dredging Company of British Columbia which is equipped to take on this work. If the need is so urgent that we have to proceed now, and if we delayed too long in building a new dredge, waiting for a year and a half or two years, the work could not be taken care of, and so I propose to bring in supplementary estimates in order to let contracts for the most urgent work this year. That does not interfere with the project of building a new dredge. I cannot give a definite commitment today. If our dredges are so obsolete that they cannot do the work, we shall have to have another dredge, but I do not think they are as bad as all that. We are having, them work now full time. In years past we kept only one shift and now we are having them work nearly all the time on two shifts. We shall try to find means of satisfying every one of the members. As to Kamloops-

Mr. FULTON:

Arrowhead.

Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):

I will take a note of the hon. member's remarks and ask the engineers to make a report. If we have to move the wharf or jetty so that it will be serviceable, they will send in a report and we will act according to that report,

Mr. FULTON:

Is there anything on file in that connection?

Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):

I was asked a question about dredging between Lotbiniere and another point. The report on that dredge is that though we might dredge the place we could not keep it in good condition. It would fill so rapidly that it would not be worth spending the money there. However, I will ask for further information about that dredge and let the hon. gentlemen know.

Mr. FULTON:

Is there anything on file with regard to the wharf I spoke about at Arrowhead? The department did have someone there last year looking at it.

Mr. FOLTRNIER (Hull):

We will give instructions to Mr. Morton to send one of his engineers to make a report so that we may see what can be done.

Mr. REID:

The minister's statements seem to be fair, but 1 suggest that the plan of dredging carried out on the Fraser river and elsewhere on the Pacific coast is not a good one at all. Take the north arm of the 83166-304J

Fraser river. Located there are, I believe, about twenty saw mills and shingle mills. All the manufacturing concerns of Vancouver have been heading of late years to the north arm. You could keep a dredge continuously for the next ten years on the Fraser river. There are millions of tons of silt coming down the main channel every year, as every one out there knows, and its presents a great problem. The minister knows that. Instead of letting a contract in an attempt to get the dredging done, the department is fighting shy of the problem. It has kept one of the dredges on the north arm, with the result that the fishermen's wharves and other wharves at many points are getting silted up over the years. One of the mills in my district has been shut down, waiting for five years, and they are asking when they may expect some relief. Why does not the department let a contract for the north arm and keep' a dredge there continually, and leave the two old tubs-because that is all they are-to do the best they can in the meantime?

Mr. MacINNIS:

Give them the old age pension.

Mr. REID:

As a matter of fact they are too old to enjoy it. It is going to take a long time to draw plans for dredging, and it will take time to let the contract and to build the dredge. In the meantime the silt is piling up in various spots on the main channel of the Fraser river and elsewhere and the dredging situation instead of getting better is worse. In fact, with the present dredges they will never catch up. I have in my hand the works programme that has been outlined, and without new dredging, on the Fraser river alone, there is sixty-five weeks steady work ahead of the two dredges. The dredging elsewhere, including Victoria and Nanaimo, cannot be overlooked.

Mr. PEARKES:

There is not a bit of doubt about that.

Mr. REID:

I do not know what they will do, and we have not so far received much encouragement from the minister about that new dredge. The situation is not at all satisfactory. I suggest that he should let a contract for the north arm and keep dredging there and keep the other dredges for the Fraser river and elsewhere.

Mr. FOURNIER (Hull):

I will see whether Mr. Morton's advice as to dredging is wrong. I understood when I was there that Mr. Morton and my hon. friend knew a good deal about this dredging and agreed o.n many things. If they do not agree I will ask Mr. Morton to make a new report. When the

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hon. member speaks of "old tubs", my information is that our suction dredge on the British Columbia coast is one of the best that can be devised. I am no expert on dredging or suction dredges, but I am told that it is o,ne of the best in the country.

Mr. REID:

The minister had better look into that again.

Mr. GAUTHIER (Portneuf):

You will

have to get dredges for the east too. We need some.

Mr. ARCHIBALD:

Has the department considered the need of establishing the necessary equipment for the north coast separating the Fraser river and the island, and the installation of dredging equipment in the northern part of British Columbia? Under the present set-up we shall never get it.

Mr. GIBSON (Comox-Alberni):

On the

west coast too.