Social credit.

Mr. SPEAKER:

Order.

[Mr. Gillis.J

Mr. GILLIS:

I would strongly urge upon the Prime Minister that when he is making his speech he pay some attention to the many resolutions and press statements which are going out across the country, emanating from the ordinary people who have to buy and who receive just enough to get a bite to eat. I suggest that the Prime Minister pay some attention to these statements and try to stop price increases, and then let the committee carry on and investigate. If on the basis of investigation you find you have not been right, you can correct your mistake. If you have been right, you can continue on and extend your policy.

Mr. W. F. KUHL (Jasper-Edson):

I have only a few words to say on this motion, Mr. Speaker-

Hear, hear.

Mr. KUHL:

-unless I am provoked into saying more than I had1 intended to say. I believe this motion has been introduced largely because in the house and the country there is a great deal of confusion on fundamental principles. I believe that the public generally-including most of the members of this house, have not yet a proper conception of fundamental principles. I do not think we have yet reached the stage where we have clearly defined in our minds what constitutes a properly functioning democracy. I shall try in a few moments to give my views as to what constitutes a properly functioning democracy in relation to this particular resolution.

First of all I think we shall have to spend a little time in defining the duties and responsibilities of the electors as such; then we shall have to try to come to some conclusion as to what is our particular duty as members of parliament and what generally speaking is the duty of the government. If we can come to an agreement on these particular aspects of the matter we shall make more progress in considering resolutions and motions such as the one now before us.

I think the confusion which exists in the public mind arises because there is not a clear differentiation between the duties of citizens as such and the duties of members of parliament. Member after member has risen in this house and said that the people of Canada demand' price control. As members we have been receiving resolutions, letters and telegrams from labour bodies, organizations of various kinds, and individuals, demanding that we support the reimposition of price controls. I wish to say, as I have said in reply to those who have written to me and telegraphed me, that I do not think that the

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people who write these resolutions and letters have a proper understanding of their duties. I do not think the public ought to be concerned about the methods that are used to achieve results. Generally speaking what the public wants is a higher standard of living, or a lower cost of living. It is a result they want. They are not concerned with controls as such. Control is a method1 by which they think a certain result can be obtained. In my opinion the only reason people throughout this country are saying they want price controls is that they are taking direction from a lot of misguided leaders. These are people who have assumed1 or have been given leadership ini labour and other organizations here, there and1 everywhere, and they are saying to the people, "We want price controls. Ask for them." So they have a chorus of people all over the country from coast to coast saying, "We want price controls," whereas it is not price controls they want at all, but rather a higher standard of living, a lower cost of living. That is what they ought to be concerned about.

I feel that if the great majority of people in this country were able to differentiate between results and methods we would not have this resolution before us at the present time. If the people were organized as a functioning democracy they would be demanding of the members of this house, particularly those on the government side, that they produce certain results, and if they cannot produce these results they should resign. First of all, I believe, people will have to learn to distinguish between results and methods; then they will have to organize themselves in such a way that they can effectively demand the results they wish. At the present time in this country, and probably in every country in the world, the people are not so organized. They are divided into parties in a dozen ways, and the parties are quarrelling and quibbling over methods. One says we want price controls; another says we need socialization and nationalization; another says we need monetary reform, and the people are divided over methods while methods are something about which the people should not be concerned at all. So I think one of the first things the people must do in this country is to learn to distinguish between results and methods, and then organize in such a way that they can obtain from their democratic institutions the results they want.

As long as we are operating under the political party system I feel that the government has the responsibility for bringing about the results the people want. As far as the

information which may be obtained by this committee is concerned, the government has adequate facilities at the present time for obtaining all the information it needs to give the people the results they want, so I think the committee really is superfluous. Yet I am not going to oppose it. If this committee, which is to be purely a fact-finding body, did nothing else than show the people that the charges the C.C.F. and the communists in this country are making are unfounded, it will be well worth while.

The hon. member for Cape Breton South (Mr. Gillis), who has just resumed his seat, in a manner typical of C.C.F. speakers, harangued us once more on the subject of profits alleged to have been made by corporations and companies. If the committee does nothing but indicate and establish that the high cost of living is not due to exorbitant profits, I think it will be well worth while.

The hon. member who preceded me made some statements about the profits the packing plants were making at the expense of the farmers. He was interrupted by the hon. member for Fraser Valley (Mr. Cruickshank), who asked whether he considered that the farmers were making exorbitant profits, but the hon. member for Cape Breton South adroitly sidestepped that question. Here is something which may interest the C.C.F. members, who are constantly making the charge that high prices are due to excessive profits. During the packing plant strike last fall an item appeared in our western newspapers as to the profits the packing plants were making. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this statement, but at least it is what was said by one packing plant. This item was headed, "Packing plants claim 35 cents profit on $100," and this is the way they itemize the cost content of the commodities they process.

A chart released by Burns & Company Limited shows how every $100 of their income from packing house operations in 1946 was distributed.

$81.42 went to the producers, for livestock, poultry, cream, etc.; $10.03 were wages to employees. Supplies for packaging finished products used up $2.70. Power, transportation and advertising claimed $3.82. Depreciation of plant and machinery amounted to 99 cents. Interest was 31 cents (bonds, 21 cents; bank, 10 cents). Income and property taxes took 38 cents. Profit was left at 35 cents on every one hundred dollars.

This appeared last October, and I imagine other companies have made similar statements. I should like to see the C.C.F., through those who serve them on this committee, try to establish that this is not true, that the profits were far in excess of 35 cenis

Prices Committee

on every $100 of products sold. And I should like to see them tiy to do that in connection with all the essentials, at least. My suspicion is that they are just a bit afraid they are not going to be able to substantiate their charges, so now they are somewhat reluctant to see the committee set up. Well, here is their opportunity to make good on the charges they have been making.

Mr. GIBSON (Comox-Alberni):

They do not want to take it.

Mr. IvUHL: I do not want to suggest there may not be what could be described as excessive and exorbitant profits by certain cor-oorations, and I am not saying I support that; but the general impression left by C.C.F. speakers is that all private business is in the same boat, that they are all a bunch of bloated profiteers. I think the hon. member for Comox-Alberni (Mr. Gibson) made a good proposition to the C.C.F. members the other day when he suggested-

Mr. McCULLOUGH (Assiniboia):

I wonder if the hon. member would permit a question?

Mr. KUHL:

All right; go ahead.

Mr. McCULLOUGH (Assiniboia):

In the debacle which followed the removal of price controls last fall Mr. McLean admitted that a packing house firm made a profit of $2,000,000. Do you consider that fair?

Mr. KUHL:

That depends on so many factors. A broad statement of that kind does not mean anything. You have to take the figures in relation to other figures. I cannot go into all the details that are involved; it would be a long study. What I am concerned about is general principles.

Mr. GIBSON (Comox-Alberni):

And you stay with your principles.

Mr. KUHL:

I was about to say that if it is so easy to make these profits; if there is so much money to be made, as is alleged by the C.C.F., why do they not accept the suggestion of the hon. member for Comox-Alberni, pool their money and go into the packing business?

Mr. GIBSON (Comox-Alberni):

They

haven't the nerve.

Mr. KUHL:

They would probably go on the rocks.

Mr. GIBSON (Comox-Alberni):

Or the ability, either.

Mr. KUHL:

If the committee does nothing more than bring out evidence to show the content of the prices of commodities, so that

IJIr. Kuhl.]

we can see whether exorbitant profits are causing the high cost of living, or whether there are other causes, then it will have been well worth while. Nevertheless I say the government has at its disposal now, plenty of facilities for finding that out for themselves. That is why in my opinion its action in setting up this committee is purely a process of delaying tactics, postponing the evil day, and not having the courage to face the issue at the present time. I am sorry if I appear unduly critical of what our friends of the C.C.F. have been saying, but I believe they deserve a good deal of criticism.

Mr. MOORE:

Will the hon. member permit a question? I noticed that when C.C.F. members spoke on this subject they were definite about the sources from which they obtained their material, making special reference to the dominion bureau of statistics; the Financial Post, and other publications. Does the hon. member question those statistics?

Mr. KUHL:

The value of statistics is often closely related to the interpretation placed upon them by the person using them.

Mr. KNOWLES:

The hon. member did not hestitate to give statistics.