Mr. PARK MANROSS (London):

Mr. Speaker, may I ask the Hon. Secretary of State whether there is any relationship between the fall of Czechoslovakia to the communists and the number of red flags on display today among the Liberal members?

Mr. J. M. DECHENE (Athabaska):

Mr. Speaker, I hope that I may be able to justfy the wonderful reception that I have just received from my colleagues in the remarks that I have to make in the time left at my disposal.

When I took my seat last night I had made a brief reference to what I considered to have been the outstanding event of my life, when forty-three years ago in the province of Alberta that grand old man of Liberalism, Sir Wilfrid Laurier, came to Edmonton on the first of September, 1905 to launch the province of Alberta on its political career, and I attended that meeting. I refer to that because as a young man I was thrilled at the possibilities of the great province of Alberta of which I was already an old' timer. This was a prelude to the remarks I wish to make, through you, sir, this afternoon, by which I hope to enlist the interest of the house in a discussion of the resources of our province which Laurier described to us in those early days, when it had a population of less than a quarter of a million-our resources of oil, gas, coal, water power, to be added to the immense wealth that could be derived from the breaking of the sod in that great province.

Today, Mr. Speaker, after forty-three years, the hopes and ambitions that we had at the time of the visit of that grand old man have not yet been fully realized. Of course it must be admitted that two great wars have taken place in the meantime which absorbed all our energy and resources so that we might do our share in winning the victory with our allies. But I know and you know, sir, that the hopes of the provinces of the west, and particularly of Alberta, will never be realized unless we bring the factories and the wealth of the east to the west, instead1 of bringing our coal all the way down to Quebec and Ontario, instead of continuing to charge our farm operations with the tremendous cost of transporting machinery and the implements of cultivation all the way to the west from the manufacturing towns of Ontario and Quebec.

I would like to impress upon the people of this country through you, sir, and the members of this assembly, that we know where the money is. It is in Ontario and Quebec, and I want to induce its transfer to where the power and resources are. Instead of bringing coal to Newcastle, let us bring the factories to Newcastle. We have everything in Alberta except the money to build these factories. A few days ago I read in the Monetary Times of November an article referring to a great Alberta salt plant that is now being constructed at a place called Elk Point, in the constituency of Athabaska, some 125 miles east of the city of Edmonton, where both natural gas and salt have been jointly developed by Anglo-Canadian, Home Oil and Calgary and Edmonton. In drilling for oil these companies made one of the richest salt

The Address-Mr. Dechene

finds ever made in America, and they are now engaged, according to the Monetary Times and other information I have, in constructing a one million dollar salt plant. I mention this for the benefit of the hon. Minister of Transport (Mr. Chevrier) and his colleagues in the cabinet, to impress upon them that this great industry which is to be developed at a cost of a million dollars will require for the transport of its product the closing of that railway gap from Frenchman's Butte, in the province of Saskatchewan, to Heinsburg, in the constituency of Athabaska, Alberta. Is it reasonable to expect this enterprise with every resource-salt, a tremendous Bow of gas and everything else to make the project a success-to be able to compete with the salt mines in the Windsor area when it has to ship its product by a roundabout route, going 150 miles around the city of Edmonton and back to find a market? There can be no argument now about the necessity and advisability of constructing that thirty-nine miles of a gap. I know that the big companies engaged in the opening up of this field will make application for this direct route to the eastern market. Our farmers who have been paying tribute for years and years, who have been paying half a cent and more on every pound of pork and beef they exported, on every bushel of wheat they shipped to the Winnipeg market, will also benefit by this direct route to Winnipeg. I will not say any more on that.

I said last spring, Mr. Speaker, that Imperial Oil-I am not an agent of Imperial Oil, bu't I am thankful to that great company which has spent twenty-five years of its time and $25,000,000 or $30,000,000 of its money to prove that there is oil in Alberta-had faith in that great country. Within a few miles of the great city of Edmonton, so ably represented in this house by the Minister of Fisheries (Mr. MacKinnon) Imperial Oil and other companies have dug forty-four wells. Out of those forty-four, forty-three have proved to be producers. Hon. members know how careful Imperial Oil are. They now admit that if the same ratio of producing wells is found in the hundreds of wells now under development, the problem of oil and gas for Canada will have been to a great extent solved. I speak of this now, Mr. Speaker, because I want to impress upon the government and the people of Alberta that the time has come for the Douglasites and the Manningites, or whatever they are called, to help the development that is going on. The credit of Alberta has been re-established, and therefore the credit of its people. The time has come for us to get together and

preserve that credit and invite capital from eastern Canada to come to that province and help in the development that is going on. We should impress upon them it is safe for them to do so.

What I have in mind is this. I am going to plead as long as I am in public life, and after I have left public life and as long as the Lord lends me breath, for the people of that province. In 1913 and 1914 when the first well was found, the Dingman well, near the city of Calgary, I agitated for the return of the mineral rights to the people of the province. At every session of the legislature in Edmonton from 1921 I said that we should no longer retain the mineral rights from the owners of the soil, and that we should no longer issue those titles to the homesteader after he had broken the land, cut the trees, and dug out the rocks with the sweat of his brow and the bleeding of his hands. Having done that, he had earned title from the government of this country to such resources in the ground as mines and minerals. It is getting late, but it can still be done and it ought to be done.

I contend, and I ask my hon. friends across the house to help me to convince their people in Edmonton, that if they wish to pay dividends to the province of Alberta it is not an impossibility to do so without costing the people of this country a single dollar. When Imperial Oil or any other large company goes in there, their geologists will find oil all over the north. I know it is 'there. They admit today that it is there, and the farmer who has oil under the surface of his land will be able to profit by the resources that God has placed at his disposal. He should own that farm from heaven to hell; it should be bis all the way through. But what happens? The companies come along and grab leases all over. The poor farmer, even if he could buy a lease, would not have the money to carry on the development that the law demands. The only way to improve the situation is to return the mineral rights to the owners of the surface, to the owners of the soil.

I was told many times in the past that that would retard' development. The men who spoke in that way certainly did not have the information that they should have had, because seventy-five per cent of the states in the great country to the south of us was developed in the way I suggest. Those who owned the surface owned the mineral rights under the surface in those states. Nobody will contend that the minerals were left undeveloped in that country. Would anybody contend that this great country did not see the greatest development of any country in

The Address-Mr. Dechene

the world because of the incentive given to the farmers and the people like you and me? All of us, when we know there is something in it for us, do our best to bring about development, because human nature is and will remain the same.

I have something else to speak about today. I am a very unhappy man, at this time.

Mr. MacNICOL:

There is too much red over there.

Mr. DECHENE:

I shall speak about the hon. member in a minute. If my hon. friend wishes me to tell him something I shall do it right now. He has been very busy travelling throughout Canada; his smiling and pleasant countenance has appeared in almost every part of the country. He has visited Fort McMurray often. During the recess I re-read his speeches, and I must admit, with all the admiration I have for the hon. gentleman, that every time he came back with criticism. I will tell him that if he wants to help us he should throw away his hammer and buy a horn, sound it, and help us to develop that country. Do not go up there and listen to some disgruntled parties peddling their criticism and their anger and come to the floor of parliament and voice that criticism to the extent that now no man with money will go into Fort McMurray because he is afraid of the reception he will get.

This afternoon Fort McMurray is idle because of a bad fire. Providence ceased to be kind to us a couple of years ago and a very disastrous fire destroyed the plant. All my life I have made a habit of saying what I think. I lost two or three elections by doing that, but I shall keep on doing it as long as I live. If the day ever comes-and I said this when I lost an election in 1926; I said to the people who were criticizing me for what I said, if the day ever comes when as a man in public life I am afraid to say what I think, then I will have enough guts to get out of politics. The people at Fort McMurray joined in the criticism. I was there in 1945, during the election, of course, for three or four days, and made a thorough survey of the plant. I do not know very much about that kind of operation, but Mr. Speaker, I contend I know as much as anybody from this parliament who went there and a little more, because I and some friends of mine in Edmonton before the first great war invested some thousands of dollars of our own money. The Minister of Fisheries knows that every one of us in Edmonton who dared to try to develop that resource lost our money because the Tory government of 1915 cancelled our leases. We were not able to carry on the development because of the war and our leases were cancelled. We lost every dollar we put in.

A good Tory government.

Mr. DECHENE:

That is not a story; it is true.

A few weeks ago a convention of engineers from all over North America was held at the Chateau Laurier. It was called by the Canadian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy. They invited a number of scientists from the United States to take part in the convention. I shall not weary the house with the details of the meeting, but a geologist by the name of Hume from the Department of Mines and Resources of this country, who is known as one of the best not only in Canada but away beyond our boundaries, made a wonderful report on the possibilities of the Fort McMurray tar sands area. A few miles west of the river, north of McMurray, a few sections of land were thoroughly tested -you can see the result of the testing; you can see the whole map in the Department of Mines and Resources. Just a few sections of land in that area have proved the possibility of extracting crude oil there to the extent of 350 million barrels, enough to supply fuel oil for all the stoves and furnaces in the cities of the east. There is enough bitumen found in various places, clear lakes of bitumen going down forty feet, without any sand at all, to pave every street in Canada. We could get all the material there which is necessary to pave our streets throughout the country. The chances are that right in the city of Ottawa the material needed for the pavement of streets comes from Trinidad or from some American company.

Together with the program recently evolved by this government, I suggest that the time has come when this country's monetary resources should be devoted to the development of its material resources. In this connection I wish to pay a compliment to the Minister of Trade and Commerce-and in doing so I want to assure my hon. friends across the way that I am not looking for a job. I am getting too old to fill any job. I looked for a job some years ago and did not get it, so I will not try again.

The senate is a good job.

Mr. DECHENE:

Not for me. I wish to compliment the Minister of Trade and Commerce, who still has charge of the Department of Reconstruction and Supply, on the splendid work he has done during the last few years. In the last few days I have listened carefully to the debates that have taken place in this house-let me hasten to assure you, Mr. FEBRUARY 26, 1948

The Address-Mr. Graydon

Speaker, that I am not going to quote from these debates-and I have thought to myself how fortunate we are in this country to have at the helm a man possessing the talent, the ability and the integrity of the right hon. gentleman, who has been the subject of so much criticism. Let me add that he does not have to stand for all the criticism that has been levelled at him. He could live a peaceful life, and he could enjoy that life; for he has done a tremendous job for Canada throughout the war years and up to the present moment. Let us be fair. Hon. members have seen him, as I have seen him, at half past two or three o'clock in the afternoon sitting in the cafeteria munching a sandwich because he had no time for lunch. He has given everything he has to the service of the country in building up a vast and efficient organization. As a result his hair is white but his shoulders are not bent, and after all this he has had to sit here and listen to the criticism that we have heard. Wherever he could get men to do the job that had to be done he got those men, irrespective of their affiliations. He has been criticized even by some on this side of the house for having done so, but he had a big job to do and he got the right men for the job. What is more, he has come through with a clear and clean record. I believe that when the history of Canada is written we shall all be able to point with pride to the work that has been done by the present Minister of Trade and Commerce.

There is a threat that the curtain will close down on us too, unless we are careful, and now the government is taking measures to save United States dollars. I am appealing to the minister to use the same ability and energy he showed in the war in bringing Canadian industry to the point where the power may be available in unlimited quantities to operate our factories, and where unlimited supplies of coal can be obtained, enough to meet the demands of the British empire for centuries to come.

I suggest to the minister that he bring industries to Alberta, which is so far away from the markets of the world. The cost of transportation is excessive, and this is a handicap from which that part of the dominion is suffering. Two or three years ago I had on the order paper a resolution proposing that Churchill be made a free port of entry, but my efforts in this direction have not been successful. Of course I do not expect any support from east of Winnipeg and elsewhere, down to the great lakes, where there are tremendous investments, but the people of western Canada would benefit if they could

ship their cattle and wheat and bacon through that northern route, bringing back necessary materials and goods from Britain, without paying tribute to anyone.

My time is about up-

Go ahead.

Mr. DECHENE:

I do not wish to take advantage of the generosity of hon. members, but as I speak to you this afternoon, sir, the glorious sun of the west is slowly sinking apparently to its watery grave in the warmth of the great Pacific ocean. In a few hours it will send its last rays over the mountains, the mighty Rockies, shining on the eternal snows and ice of those giants of the west, as a benediction to the yeomen of the plains who are now preparing their seeds for the crops to come.

Mr. GORDON GRAYDON (Peel):

Mr. Speaker, I rise to take part in this debate on the address very largely because the opportunity to make inquiries of the government is naturally and obviously limited at other stages of the business of the house, namely on the orders of the day and other special occasions. At such times members have but a limited opportunity to ask questions with reference to urgent and important problems facing the country; therefore I will take advantage of this debate to address some observations to the government and to seek information on a subject which at the moment is engaging the attention of the Canadian people almost as much as any other issue. I refer to the Hong Kong expedition, and of course the matters which have been before the house for some time in consequence of the report.

I had hoped that the Prime Minister (Mr. Mackenzie King) would have recovered sufficiently to be in his seat this afternoon, because there are certain things which I should like to say to him. I cannot, however, allow the matter to stand until next Wednesday, which normally would be the time for the resumption of the debate on the address. I hope the right hon. gentleman will understand that. In any event he will be able to read in Hansard what I have to say.

I am approaching the Hong Kong matter as any ordinary citizen on the street would. I do not pose as an expert; I do not attempt to bring to the house more than a common-sense reaction to the issues at stake, because I have no inside information with respect to Hong Kong. I shall base my remarks, seeking information on that basis, only upon such information as I have gathered from Hansard, from what I have gleaned from the com-

The Address-Mr. Graydon

missioner's report on Hong Kong, and what has been circulated among the Canadian public through the press.

Let me hasten to say to hon. members- perhaps they will not be surprised to hear it- that I have not read the evidence before the Duff commission. I do not suppose many people have. Nor have I had an opportunity to read any of the letters which constitute what is commonly known as the Drew correspondence with the Prime Minister. If I may, however, I should like to simplify as best I can one or two of the points at issue as I see them, and to put that issue squarely before the Prime Minister, parliament and the country.

Mr. SPEAKER:

I am sorry to have to interrupt the hon. member, but I cannot hear what he is saying. I would ask members who wish to talk to go into the lobby. There is so much noise in the house that it is hard to follow the hon. member who has the floor.

Mr. GRAYDON:

Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. KNOWLES:

Send them a letter.

Mr. GRAYDON:

At this stage, if I may, I want to trace in a chronological way just what happened from September 19, 1941, until now. So many things happened in the war and have happened in the post-war period that the public, and perhaps even parliament itself, may forget the sequence of events which it is necessary to recall as a basis and background in order to deal with a matter of this kind which is being discussed in the house from time to time.

On September 19, 1941, Canada was invited by the British government to send an expedition to Hong Kong. On October 16, 1941, the war party assumed control in Japan. I may say that I am giving only the barest and briefest outline of the sequence of events. On October 27, the Canadian troops left Canada for Hong Kong; and from the information I have been able to glean from the sources to which I have already made reference I take it that they were expected, in the original instance, to be a garrison force and to be part of a general show of force on the Pacific scene. Judging from what I have read, in any event, I think it must be generally accepted that these troops were inadequately trained and equipped even for that garrison duty, let alone for heavy combat. Later in the year Hong Kong surrendered. In 1942 Mr. George Drew, now Premier of the province of Ontario, made certain charges in connection with the handling of the expedition from the standpoint of the government and the military in general.

Shortly after that the then leader of the opposition asked for an inquiry and investigation by the government. The government appointed a one-man commission to investigate, and selected the chief justice, Sir Lyman Duff, as the sole commissioner. The opposition then selected Mr. George Drew, who was then the leader of the opposition in the Ontario legislature, as opposition counsel. From then on the commission held its sittings. The report was published later in 1942, with certain parts of the evidence taken before the commission attached to the report, although it was said it was supposed to have been an in camera inquiry. Shortly afterwards Mr. George Drew sent a letter to the Prime Minister and copies of it to the party leaders. The date of that letter, or at least the date on which it was received by those to whom it was sent, was July 11, 1942.

Hon. members of course know the story with respect to the seeking of the tabling of that letter. The Prime Minister finally decided not to table it, although that was asked for by the opposition. Actually what happened was this. He first indicated1 his willingness to table the letter, particularly after the hon. member for Rosetown-Biggar (Mr. Coldwell) had assumed whatever responsibility might be attached to asking for the tabling of the letter which was in the Prime Minister's possession. But in the interval between six o'clock in the afternoon and eight o'clock at night the Prime Minister changed his decision and finally arrived in the house with reasons which he advanced for refusing to table the letter from Mr. Drew.

Mr. WARREN:

May I ask one question, Mr. Speaker, of the hon. member?