Mr. MAYHEW:

However, it might shorten the debate if I made a brief statement. The bill before us is for the refunding of an amount of $700,000 borrowed by the New Westminster harbour commission on April 2, 1928, and due on April 2 of this year; therefore it is necessary that we get the bill passed through both houses before the end of the month. It deals solely with refunding, and does not touch at all the principles of national harbour administration. The government guaranteed this loan, and it is hoped that upon refunding the interest rate will drop from 4| per cent to some lower rate. It is also hoped that the capital amount will be payable in Canada'. At present it is payable at the option of the debenture holders either in the United States or in Canada. There is considerable to be gained by the refunding of this loan at an early date.

I think that is about all the explanation that is necessary, but I shall be glad to answer questions.

Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):

The parliamentary assistant has partly anticipated the question I was going to ask when he said that it is hoped that the new debentures would be payable only in Canada whereas the present ones are payable at the option of the holders either in the United States or in Canada. Would he say a little more about that? I wish he could use a stronger word than "hope".

Mr. MAYHEW:

"Hope" was not strong enough. It will be payable in Canada.

Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):

In Canada only?

Mr. MAYHEW:

In Canada only.

Mr. CHURCH:

Is this a federal harbour? Does the city of New Westminster appoint some of the commissioners and the federal government others? The government is going to guarantee the substituted securities. That is a wide departure. I would ask the minister to give further information about

the harbour commission. How many members are appointed by the city and how many by the government? How much has been spent on the harbour, and how much does the city contribute? How much does the federal government contribute? I know that other harbours are not getting any government guarantee of bonds. The Toronto harbour board consists of five members, three appointed by the city and two by the federal government, and the government representatives are voting city funds because all the money that board spends is advanced by the city. The federal government spends money for Toronto harbour through the federal Minister of Public Works. The set-up of the New Westminster commission seems to be quite different. There are certain harbours known as federal harbours, like Quebec, Montreal and many others. I think it is going pretty far afield to guarantee bonds for city work, for some of it is no doubt city work and some government work. I wish to support anything that is for the good of the country, and if harbour improvements are good for New Westminster they are good for the rest of Canada. What are the powers and functions of this corporation? What are the plans for harbour work and the cost?

Mr. MAYHEW:

The hon. member says that he is willing to support anything that is for the good of the country, so I am sure he will support this measure. The New Westminster harbour commission was formed in 1913. It is not under the national harbour board. It has a board of three, two appointed by the dominion government and one by the city of New Westminster. This harbour commission has a very excellent record in that it has paid all its interest and carrying charges up to 1946. It is only three six-months periods behind in interest in all that time, which includes the war period, when there was very little shipping in New Westminster harbour. The dominion government is well represented, two to one, on this board.

Mr. HAZEN:

What will be the rate of interest on the new debentures? The parliamentary assistant said the rate would be somewhat lower.

Mr. MAYHEW:

I cannot say what the interest rate will be. That will be arranged between now and a later date. The dominion government will have to take up the debentures and refinance in whatever way they think best.

Mr. HAZEN:

How many of these debentures are held in the United States?

New Westminster Harbour Commission

Mr. MAYHEW:

I have no knowledge of how many are held in the United States. From 1928 to the present time is a period of twenty years. That is quite a long time, and these debentures are probably well scattered over the country. No doubt some are in the United States, but I hope that most of them are held in Canada.

Mr. HAZEN:

I am speaking of the present time.

Mr. MAYHEW:

So am I.

Mr. HAZEN:

What will be the total amount of the new issue? It says in the new bill, "an aggregate principal amount not exceeding such amount as is necessary for that purpose".

Mr. MAYHEW:

That is exactly the same wording as was used in the old bill. The amount will be 8700,000, just sufficient to pay off the present debentures.

Mr. HAZEN:

Do I understand the new issue will be $700,000?

Mr. MAYHEW:

Yes.

Mr. CASE:

Have these bonds always been guaranteed by the government? What was the total amount of the original bond issue in 1928? How much has been paid off? What is its relation to the $700,000 now asked for?

Mr. MAYHEW:

When this money was first borrowed it was guaranteed by the dominion government. They have always been guaranteed.

Mr. FRASER:

How much will have to be paid in United States funds? Some of this money will have to be paid in United States funds; has the parliamentary assistant any idea what the amount will be?