Mr. HOWE:

There will still be a little difficulty about money. Practically every

Export and Import Permits Act

transaction is cleared through the department of commerce. There are very few entrepreneurs operating today.

Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):

When the minister said that practically every transaction was cleared through the department of commerce, did he mean the Department of Trade and Commerce in Canada or the United States department?

Mr. HOWE:

In Canada. We have had difficulty over the years in stopping exports to certain countries; for example machinery to Czechoslovakia. We have had no means of doing that unless we pass specific legislation. There is the additional point that if we join with the United States in certain commitments under the European recovery program we do want to have the power to make sure that private enterprise does not divert to other countries material that we have sold to or committed to ERP. We may never use it. It is not likely that that will happen, because I think private enterprise is, on the whole, just as anxious to co-operate with the government in ERP as it was to co-operate with the government in the war. 'Nevertheless it is a solemn matter to make a commitment with another country, and we wish to make sure that if the commitment is made the commitment will be carried out.

Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):

Did I understand that the minister from day to day has knowledge of the commitments to be made by private individuals to foreign countries? Is that what I understood the minister to say a moment ago?

Mr. HOWE:

Well, under the present law if it is commodities they must come to the department and get an export permit in order to export goods to almost any country.

Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):

Therefore the minister does know.

Mr. HOWE:

We know, yes.

These permits will be issued in conformity with the plan of supplying to ERP.

Mr. HOWE:

If this amendment carries. Today we have no right to refuse a permit on the basis of the country. The only basis for refusing a permit is that Canada requires the material in Canada for national reasons. In other words, if we have surplus material the export permit issues automatically today, because we have the right under the present bill to direct the supply of commodities, but we have no right to direct materials to be exported to one country and withheld from another.

Mr. COLDWELL:

It is not so much a matter of withholding them or being able to control exports so that supplies will not go to a country you do not like.

Mr. HOWE:

No.

Mr. COLDWELL:

As I understand it, this is a bill to ensure that supplies do go to countries to which we are obligated to send them.

Mr. HOWE:

That is it exactly.

Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):

I do not see the risk. If the minister does not know what goods are already committed to Luxembourg, let us say, and then commits himself to send a lot more and finds that there was a surplus and overlapping I cannot see that that would create a danger to be guarded against. But if in fact the department knows from day to day that goods of a certain type are already going to Luxembourg and knows the total amount required, it can then buy the additional amount itself and send them. The reason I am saying this is one which the minister will appreciate. It seems to me, whether you like it or not, that this is just saying to the private individual, there is no use in your doing anything; it is in the hands of the government. It seems to me that you are saying to the ordinary entrepreneur, the ordinary man, working hard to build up a business, Just go and roll your hoop. It is no use your showing the energy and initiative which we want you to show. Is that a fair way to put it? And if so, is it not a serious state of affairs?

Mr. HOWE:

To me this gives very little additional power to control exports in any section of the world outside western Europe to which we are exporting and will continue to export. The point I make is this: if we join with the United States in ERP, it is very similar to joint supply projects during the war. At that time we had the power to direct material to the sources. War material was, of course, entirely in the hands of the government. We could direct it. But this is supply material; and if we go to Washington and a list is laid before us and we agree with the United States that we shall take care of a certain part of the list and they will take care of certain other parts of the list we become responsible for that supply. Well, without being able to regulate our exports by countries, a situation might arise where we could not supply it for the reason that the goods, if the transactions were entered into, were diverted to another country for probably private reasons or for some other reason over which we had no control.

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Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):

It seems to me that you are taking a steam hammer to crack a nut. I would have thought that the danger was remote, and not only remote but even if it did arise it would be trivial. The minister knows business in this country like the palm of his hand. He is in touch with people. I do not believe these dangers that he points out are serious. On the other hand, I think that to stifle initiative, which I think is what it is doing, is serious. The minister says that we have many other countries besides western Europe to whom to export. Nevertheless we rely greatly on western Europe.

There is one other thing that arises. As I understand it, we have no knowledge yet of exactly how the United States are going to work this out. If I understood the minister correctly, he said he expected to be called to Washington shortly to confer with the people there and to take the necessary steps. But now, in advance of that and, I submit, before the minister knows what powers he really needs, he is coming and asking for these very wide powers. He is not fooling in the powers he is asking for. The minister has had wide powers, and I do not hesitate to say that he has often exercised them very well. He made a remark a moment or two ago which I think is symptomatic of the trouble we are in now. He said, we had these powers or similar powers during the war. In effect he says we have them now. I admit that great emergencies still exist. My hon. friend to the left may very naturally approve this, as I expect he will. It is right down his alley. This is what he believes, and no one can criticize him for it; but to those of us who believe that initiative and private energy should be given as much scope as possible I confess I find it very disappointing to see another door being shut, and nothing that has been said convinces me that it is necessary.

Mr. HOWE:

I suggest to my hon. friend that this is a free enterprise bill, and he is advocating for state buying. If the only way we can fill an ERP order is to buy the material in Canada and ship it ourselves that would be a move toward socialism. If we can control the export of free entrepreneurs through granting export permits, as we can do if this bill passes, it is in my humble opinion, greatly in the interests of free economy.

Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):

I wonder whether the minister's answer is quite as perfect as it appears. I wonder whether I have been wrong in thinking that the minister, both the other night and a few minutes ago, suggested-certainly he did, if I did not misunderstand him-that there would be a great deal of government buying to fill these orders.

Mr. HOWE:

I said I did not know.

Mr. MACDONNELL (Muskoka-Ontario):

If I am wrong in that, then to that extent perhaps my question goes astray.