Mr. STANLEY KNOWLES (Winnipeg North Centre):

Mr. Speaker, may I direct a question either to the Prime Minister or to the Minister of Finance, relating to a matter of considerable public interest and concern? Will the Prime Minister or the Minister of Finance reconcile the statement of the Minister of Finance to me a week ago, that there would be no return to subsidies to keep down the cost of Living, with the reported statement of the Prime Minister that he agreed with the member for Waterloo North (Mr. Breithaupt) that there should be subsidies to keep down the cost of living.

Right Hon. W. L. MACKENZIE KING (Prime Minister):

I am very happy my hon. friend has raised that question. It gives me a chance to say that I have never made any statement to the member for Waterloo North relating to subsidies. The question of subsidies was never mentioned by me.

May I say that there have been no end of statements attributed to me in the press in the last few days which are wholly unfounded and untrue. I have read one statement to the effect that after that so-called- interview the other day in my office I had gone to council chamber and there had been a scene there with the Minister of Finance. I have my colleagues sitting around me at the present time, and I say we never had a pleasanter meeting of council than we had that day.

I read the other day in another paper that I had read the Minister of Finance a lecture, that I had told him that he must be more human, and had given him a list of items on which the excise duties must be removed, and so forth.

Mr. KNOWLES:

Hear, hear.

Inquiries of the Ministry

Mr. MACKENZIE KING:

My hon, friend says "hear, hear." He is echoing these anonymous statements in the press that are without any foundation whatsoever. I have never read the Minister of Finance a lecture in my life, nor has he ever read me one. We each respect the other far too much to act as school boys in a matter relating to public business, and I hope my hon. friend will not follow the example of the press in the particular I have mentioned.

Mr. KNOWLES:

Then is there to be no change in government policy with respect to the still rising cost of living?

Mr. CLARENCE GILLIS (Cape Breton South):

Mr. Speaker, may I be permitted to address a question to the Minister of Trade and Commerce? Has it been brought to his attention that four small operating coal companies in Nova Scotia, employing some eight hundred men, are working half-time because of a lack of markets? Can he explain why Canadian mines should be idle while there are heavy imports of coal from the United1 States?

Right Hon. C. D. HOWE (Minister of Trade and Commerce):

There may be several reasons for the lack of markets. One of these small operators called on me a few days ago and made the same statement. I asked him if he had interviewed the coal board, and he said no. I suggested that he do so. He did so, and the board pointed out markets he could easily reach under the usual subvention policy. He went to those markets and sold coal and went back home. Perhaps if the other operators would do the same, the situation wrouId not appear so serious.

Mr. STANLEY KNOWLES (Winnipeg North Centre):

Mr. Speaker, is the Minister of Justice yet in a position to answer the questions put to him on Saturday about the questionnaire being circulated in certain departments of the government?

Right Hon. J. L. ILSLEY (Minister of Justice):

I am prepared to answer that question; in fact, I have been seeking an opportunity for the last few minutes.

With reference to the questions asked on Saturday, June 19, by the hon. member for Lake Centre (Mr. Diefenbaker) and the hon. member for Winnipeg North Centre (Mr. Knowles), the government are aware of the concern felt by members generally in the matter of the security of government employees. For that reason it is felt to be advisable that a general statement on the subject should be made.

The government is acutely aware of its responsibility in relation to security within the government service, and administrative measures have been taken to ensure the safety of the state in this respect. These measures do not interfere with traditional principles of just treatment.

In the government's view, loyalty is not susceptible to any precise series of tests. Accordingly, after careful consideration, it was decided not to set up an elaborate organization, as had been done elsewhere, to determine and adjudicate upon the loyalty of government employees. As was indicated to the House of Commons by the Secretary of State for External Affairs (Mr. St. Laurent) on April 14, 1947 (Hansard, page 1993), an interdepartmental panel on security, composed of officials from departments and agencies of government, was set up some time ago to advise on the coordination of the planning, organization and execution of security measures generally which affect government departments. These measures necessarily include the devising of the best methods of carrying out inquiries concerning applicants for government employment in order to determine their suitability from a security point of view. The security panel advises on measures and methods. It does not deal with individual cases.

With regard to the so-called questionnaires, there are, of course, a number of forms used by departments for ordinary administrative purposes as a necessary part of their personnel management. In addition, forms are in use in some departments for the purpose of assembling relevant information concerning persons whose duties include work of a secret character. The use of these so-called questionnaires for security purposes is merely a means of facilitating the work of those who have to make the necessary inquiries. They are employed only for persons in positions of trust and not for the great majority of government employees. In some cases the information required can be and is obtained from departmental personnel records and from the records of the civil service commission. In other cases, the information is requested

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of the employees themselves by means of questionnaires. The completion of such forms is not compulsory. They are designed to help those responsible to obtain quickly information which may be helpful in- assessing the suitability of individuals for confidential employment. Incidentally, departmental practice in this respect is under review and I can assure the house that any Objectionable and unnecessary features in such documents, such as questions concerning collateral relatives and any irrelevant inquiry into the private lives of individuals, will not be permitted.

The government is of the opinion that loyalty to the state of employees in positions 6f trust is an essential aspect of the efficient conduct of public administration. Moreover, there are certain duties of such a secret character that the state would not be justified in employing for their performance any person whose trustworthiness is in doubt.

Under the terms of the Civil Service Act and regulations, the civil service commission is required to satisfy itself as to the character and habits of persons appointed by it to government employment. These provisions do not apply to all employees or departments and agencies, nor do they relieve departments of their responsibility for satisfying themselves as to the suitability of individual employees from a security standpoint.

The particular attention of heads of departments and agencies of government has been drawn to their responsibility with respect to the reliability of employees under their charge from the security point of view. A procedure has been approved which will enable them to discharge this responsibility as a part of their normal administrative function.

This is the position of the government with respect to security in relation to government employees generally. There is, however, the special case of those who are members of or associated with the communist party. The government is satisfied, from all the evidence available, that it would be a risk to the security of the state to employ such persons in positions of trust. For this reason, and in the discharge of its primary responsibility for security, the government has decided that no person who is a member of the communist party or associated with it shall be employed in work of a secret character. I may add that the same rule applies to those associated with fascist organizations.

Mr. LAPOINTE:

The purpose of this resolution is merely to introduce legislation amending the Department of National Defence Act by adding a section to it under which certain moneys subscribed to and collected by Canadian Officers Training Corps contingents during the years of war for specific purposes might be released from the consolidated revenue fund and returned to these educational institutions to be used for the purpose for which they were subscribed. During the war, in most universities where C.O.T.C. contingents existed, a voluntary assignment of pay was made by members of the contingents for definite purposes such as buildings for the use of the contingents, establishment of memorial scholarships or bursaries, or such other memorial purposes. To this amount subscribed to by the members of the contingents in some instances subscriptions were made by private individuals for the same purpose. Under the Consolidation Revenue and Audit Act these sums would now be considered public moneys, and as such could not be used for the purposes for which they were subscribed without statutory authority from parliament. This legislation merely seeks to obtain authorization for these contingents to use these funds as intended.

Mr. PEARIvES: Were any of these funds raised through canteens conducted by the officers training corps in the various universities?