Mr. Gregg:

I am afraid I have not any information in that form.

Mr. Hellyer:

Will the minister give further consideration to the request of the Canadian corps of firefighters? I understand that they have two modest demands, first, eligibility to receive the Canadian Volunteer Service medal and then to be given preference in employment in the civil service. As the minister is aware, these men enlisted for service anywhere without reservation and were subject to great danger. In the British zone, at least, they were required to stay out at times when the armed forces were ordered underground, and they were not too highly compensated for their services. I admit that they have been given most of the benefits that have accrued to the armed forces, but as they did such great service in that area, as they helped with the loading of barges for the attack on Europe, as a commitment was made, at least by inference, by Major General LaFleche that they would be granted equal rights with the armed forces, I wonder if it would not be possible for the minister to give further consideration to their requests?

Mr. Gregg:

The two requests, civil service benefits and the C.V.S. medal, are both outside my department. Fundamentally the men referred to were not attested and consequently are not technically veterans and therefore do not come under the Department of Veterans Affairs. By virtue of the fact that similar benefits have accrued to them we have been interested in them.

Perhaps my hon. friend and the committee would be interested in knowing that the firefighter received a gratuity of $15 for every thirty days of service overseas; he was made eligible for vocational training; if in receipt of pension, which I shall come to, he was eligible for benefits under the Veterans Land Act; if he was hurt by enemy action he was eligible for pension; he was eligible for veterans insurance; he came under the provisions of the Reinstatement in Civil Employment Act, which I will admit at once was not used very much, and he received benefits under the Unemployment Insurance Act.

Mr. Hellyer:

The auxiliary supervisors

were eligible for the Canadian Volunteer Service medal and I was wondering if the same privilege could not be given to the firefighters?

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Mr. Gregg:

I do not see how it could be

done because the basis of eligibility for the Canadian Volunteer Service medal was volunteering for service in His Majesty's forces.

Mr. Lennard:

That brings up a matter

which perhaps I should not bring up, that these promises were made. We will let it go at that, but I think it should be on the record again that they were promised these benefits by a certain representative of the government. That is an established fact.

Mr. Harkness:

I understand that steps

have been taken by the department to secure employment for older veterans. Could the minister tell us what is being done along that line at the present time and what success has been achieved?

Mr. Gregg:

Quite apart from our work in

that connection, there is an attempt to cooperate with the national employment service in helping to find work for older veterans. These are mainly veterans of world war I whose average age is now 61 years. There is the utmost desire on the part of these older veterans to continue just as long as they possibly can. Unfortunately there are a number of veterans, not many-about one per cent- who have never become re-established during the thirty years after the war and yet have been able to keep their faith, their hope and their cheerful outlook on life.

The way we have gone about it is the establishment within this division of a small group, having smaller counterparts in the districts, which has been carrying on a good deal of discussion with employers in connection with this matter. I had the privilege myself of talking on this subject to the Canadian Manufacturers Association the other day in Toronto, and also at a number of other places. Valuable work is going on from day to day in seeking employment and breaking down the resistance of employers to putting these older men to work. They can give just as valuable service today as they could have given 20 or 25 years ago. I think that fact is becoming realized more and more.

During the three years that we have been concentrating on this matter the national employment service, with the help of ourselves and other agencies, have turned up 160,000 jobs into which these older veterans have been fitted. I hasten to state that those are not 160,000 permanent jobs as some of them would represent one, two or three jobs for the same man. We feel that this work is valuable, primarily for the good effect upon the veteran and, secondarily, for the saving it represents

to the country. If many of these men did not obtain employment in this way they would become applicants for war veterans allowances. [DOT]

In connection with the older veterans I should like to say a special word about the corps of commissionaires, and also to pay tribute to the public spirited men across Canada who are giving their time and effort free as members of the board of governors to make the corps the success it is. There are something like 5,000 older veterans registered in the corps. I saw 300 of them on parade the other day. At the right of the line were the old chaps of the South African war with their medals up, and the average age of the remainder would be at least sixty-one. The corps provides a place of service for men who have maintained their integrity, discipline and trustworthiness but who have no special skill and perhaps are not too strong physically. In the main their posts of supervision do not require manual work. It is valuable for its effect upon the men. It is useful for the employer because he does not have to worry about what employing older men will do to his pension or group insurance scheme. The corps takes care of all the normal security measures that would otherwise fall upon the employer. I thank my hon. friend for the opportunity of saying a word about older men entering into employment.

Mr. Harkness:

As I understand it, the department maintains no placement officer in order to put older veterans in jobs. Is that not the situation?

Mr. Gregg:

We do not turn down any opportunity to place them directly but normally we work through the excellent facilities provided by my colleague, the Minister of Labour. He has a special veterans officer who is the liaison man between the employment service and our own local offices. Consequently better results are obtained in that way than if we attempted to build up any kind of separate organization of our own.

Mr. Harkness:

I was wondering what special efforts are made by the placement people in the Department of Labour in order to get the older men into jobs. I have hired a few men myself during the last two or three years. I have never seen any indication that any effort was made to place veterans rather than others. As a matter of fact there are certain indications at times that perhaps the reverse is the fact. What I am really trying to get at is what particular, definite and specific steps are taken to try to get these people into employment? It seems to me that efforts along that line are not as definite as they might be, that considerably more

effort might be made and a better organization provided in order to accomplish the purpose. That may not be the case but that is the way it has appeared to me through casually hiring men from time to time.

Mr. Herridge:

Before the minister answers, I was about to rise to speak on the question of welfare officers coming under the jurisdiction of the Department of Labour. In my constituency there happens to be one such officer attached to the employment office in Trail and another at Nelson. They have done most effective and: excellent work in looking for jobs for aged veterans. That has been the major employment of these two officers in the last fifteen months. While the Minister of Labour does not believe in psychology, I should like to say to him that his welfare officers' understanding of psychology has meant jobs. Therefore I think there is something to be said for psychology. The point I wish to make is that I am under the impression that the Department of Labour is not as enamoured of the value of these welfare officers as the Department of Veterans Affairs, or as a good many members who are interested in veterans. I understand in some cases they have been dropped, and that at the present time there is pressure to dispose of them. I urge the Minister of Veterans Affairs to use his influence for the retention of these men where they are needed and where they are doing a job. I know in my own constituency they are doing an unquestionably good job.

Mr. Mitchell:

My hon. friend said something about psychology. I was one of nine children, and I thought my mother was a pretty fair psychologist. She was not the kind of psychologist that my hon. friend is talking about, but she raised the family and did not do a bad job. In the light of these new-fangled ideas, those who went before us did not do a bad job and they left a pretty decent heritage to the people of Canada based on simple things.

Referring to what my hon. friend said about the organization of the employment service, I think it has worked reasonably well. I have not the figures before me now *but I would be glad to provide them when the estimates of my department are under consideration. We have laid special emphasis on the placement of returned soldiers and handicapped people. Comparing the results with the experiments in other places, I think we may well be proud of the people employed in the employment service of Canada.

It is a very difficult thing, but those of us who were in the first great war have some knowledge of the confusion that existed after

Supply-Veterans Affairs the war. We are not taking all the credit for what has been done. We had the experience of the first great war and we acted on it in a big and broad way. When you consider that we moved over a million people from the fighting forces into gainful employment in less than six months, that is some indication of the efficiency of the organization. There is nothing perfect in this life. Anybody can play the horses after the race is run. I think with the co-operation of all sections of society in Canada we have done a reasonable job. Mind you, I also take the view, if I may say so, that I do not believe in a planned economy. The only place you can plan is in a penitentiary where everyone does as he is told, goes to bed and gets up on orders and wears the same clothes.

We possibly had more control over the movement of human beings during the war than at any time in the history of North America. I was convinced in my own mind that Canadians made good airmen, soldiers and sailors, but that they were free men and wanted to get back to private endeavour. If I wanted to do a thing in those days I used to make a speech that everybody understood. I said "Selective service is down the drain." There is no equivocation in a statement of that description. I think we can be thankful that the Canadian people took that advice. In peacetime if you have a decade of the state moving people around it is the easiest thing in the world to slip into the method of government direction that we see in other countries. If you do that in the formative stages of life I think any nation will live to regret it. I think the Canadian people used good common sense in the movement of our people out of the fighting forces into productive employment in industry, agriculture and commerce in its broadest sense.

Mr. Herridge:

I should like to ask the Minister of Labour a question. Does he believe in assisting the employment of veterans by continuing so far as possible the use of veterans placement officers in his department?

Mr. Mitchell:

Absolutely. I want to say that without any equivocation whatsoever.

Mr. Fulton:

I should like to ask the minister what amount was spent last year under the equivalent item for travelling expenses, staff, for which he is asking $164,000 this year.

Mr. Gregg:

The item of $164,000 for 1950-51

provides for the cost of travelling for the veterans welfare branch staff at head office and in the districts. Costs incurred for investigation, and reports in connection with applications for the benefits in connection with

Supply-Veterans Affairs war veterans allowances, and so on, represent a large proportion of the money required. The amount considered necessary for 1950-51 approximates that expended in 1949-50 owing to the fact that the level of travelling activity remains pretty steady.

Mr. Fulion:

How much was spent last year actually?

Mr. Gregg:

It was $108,500.