Mr. Harris:

The only statement that I think I should make at this stage is to say that I think all parties in the house agree that it is expedient to introduce a bill to amend, consolidate and clarify the Indian Act.

Mr. Harkness:

There is a great desire on the part of the Indians and many other people interested in them to have this act come out so that people can take a look at it, and so forth. In view of that fact, I should not like to delay the appearance of the act by making any remarks on the matter this afternoon, except to say that I am extremely glad that after this long period of time the act is finally going to come out and get consideration here.

Mr. Blackmore:

I have no desire to delay the passage of the resolution but I hope that the bill, when it comes down, will make some provision for two or three things which I consider to be paramount essentials in any attempt to deal with the Indian situation as it exists in Canada today.

In the first place there should be an Indian claims commission. If the bill does not provide for such a claims commission then it will be defective to that extent. In various parts of Canada Indians have experienced some of the grossest injustices by reason of the fact that conditions since the signing of their treaty have changed so materially that they do not at all resemble what they were like in former days. May I illustrate. Suppose an Indian tribe had free access to fishing on a great river which teemed with fish at the time they signed their treaty. At that time it was recognized that they would have free access to the fish in that river and no particular stipulation was made concerning their having perpetual access to the fish; but meanwhile the fishing at the mouth of that river has been commercialized, as it has within the Fraser river. The result is the

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Indians find that when they go to the river to get their annual supply of fish, the fish do not appear in the river. Clearly something has happened as a result of the white man's management of that river which has changed the conditions of life for the Indians beyond all possible estimation.

If something has not been done by His Majesty's government to recompense the Indians for the losses which they have sustained by reason of this commercializing of the fishing in that river then the Indians are suffering from a handicap which is very painful indeed, and can be ruinous. They have a claim against the government which ought to be investigated, and in consideration of which they should be compensated.

Conditions similar to that prevail in respect of, I would imagine, 60 per cent of the tribes throughout this country. In the reservation which I myself have the honour to represent, for example, when they signed their treaty in 1877-I believe it was treaty 7-it did not seem possible within the time that one could imagine that there ever would be a period when the Indians would not have limitless grazing land for their ponies and for their cattle. There were no fences in any direction; there was no settlement in any direction in the province of Alberta in 1877 where the Blood reservation now is.

The result was the Indians had limitless paslure. They could get all the wood they needed for their fires. There is not a plentiful supply of wood in that area, but there was enough for the Indians; where they could not get this wood from stream beds, rivers and creeks, they could go to the mountains. Now, what has happened? Mountain reserves have been made parts of forest reserves and parks, and the Indians have been fenced in in reserves so that they cannot get wood at all to supply their needs. A set of conditions has been built up as a result of that alone which has inflicted upon these Indians losses of tremendous extent. If we allow them to go on suffering from these disadvantages, without making any compensation or any investigation into the nature of their disabilities, we surely are not making for success in advancing our Indians.

Therefore I suggest there must be a claims commission similar to the one set up in the United States. If that claims commission is not provided for in the bill coming down, or in some bill soon to come down, I suggest to the minister in all earnestness, as one sincere Canadian to another, that he must look into that matter without any further delay.

There is another matter which I think must be talked about, namely, the matter of

education. I am sure the minister has had much representation brought to his attention about Indian education. If the bill provides-

Mr. Harris (Grey-Bruce):

I do not want to interrupt the hon. member, but the estimates of my department on Indian affairs have not yet been discussed. I wonder whether the hon. member would discuss education when they come up either later this week, or early next week. I realize that he wants to make a point that we should provide for the education of Indians, but I think that when he sees the bill he will find that it does that.

Mr. Blackmore:

Very well, but it would not do any harm to outline it in a few minutes. I do not propose to talk very long, but I do wish to say just a word or two about the situation in respect of the Indians. I believe in preparing the minister for what I may or may not say in discussing the estimates, but it will do no harm to mention this question of education. We know very well that in a number of ways education on the Indian reservations has been taken care of largely by religious organizations. I have no complaint against religious organizations as such, but there are Indians who do not desire to have their children attend religious institutions in order to obtain education. On the reserve which I have the honour to represent there are two splendid schools, one Roman Catholic and the other Anglican. I believe they have been managed with the utmost proficiency in so far as the people controlling them have access to facilities; but there are many Indians on that reservation who do not desire that their children shall be under the religious influence of either of those organizations. And as Canadian citizens they surely have the right to have their children educated in a non-sectarian or secular school. Up to the present time there is no provision by which they can obtain that. That is a serious matter.

I wish to say only a word or two about it If we are going to prepare the Indians to be the citizens of tomorrow in Canada, along with our own boys and girls, we simply must be positively sure that we are making full provision for the adequate education of the Indian boys and girls. That is the second point.

This is the third point, and I hope it is in the bill. We must make provision without further delay for adequate nutrition among the Indians on the reservations. This more properly comes under the direction of the Minister of National Health and Welfare. I am sure that he is giving it careful attention, but at the same time if the two fine young ministers co-operate and have the full support of the house and of the government on this program they will not have any more

than just barely enough support to enable them to discharge the responsibilities they assumed when they undertook to see that the Indians of Canada shall be properly nourished. If the Indians are not properly nourished then they develop all sorts of deficiencies. Men now are nutrition conscious. We all know how important it is that we should be well nourished. What chance has the ordinary Indian to be well nourished when it is almost impossible for him to obtain enough food in Canada to keep body and soul together? The result of all this is that a very carefully designed provision must be made as to nutrition if the Indians of tomorrow are to be able to discharge their responsibilities as citizens.

Such measures as old age pensions, and all that sort of thing, should be provided the Indians. Some sort of provision must be made for adequate nutrition.

I have just one more thing to say. I trust that this bill is making provision for what might be called the rehabilitation and establishment of the Indians economically. We are having a hard enough time in our generation, we, the ordinary ones of us. We find it hard enough to fit into the life around us and to make a living; yet we have been admirably prepared as compared with the preparation given to the Indian. We are admirably equipped in both body and mind, as compared with the Indian who has been undernourished all his life. What chance has an Indian when we find it difficult to compete? What chance has he to compete and establish himself so that he can make adequate provision for his family?

I do not propose to go into the details of this matter, but we must take it into consideration and we must have results right away so that the Indians can establish themselves economically, so that they can use their reserves to the best advantage, and take part in the economic life of the community surrounding their reserves.

I trust that these provisions may be made in the act. I shall watch with great care to see whether they are or not; and if they are not, then the minister must naturally expect to give an accounting to me when he brings his estimates before us.

Mr. Diefenbaker:

I do not propose to discuss the resolution for the simple reason that it gives no indication as to the nature of the bill to be introduced to amend the Indian Act. However I should like to make two suggestions to the minister.

Certainly nothing more important than these amendments to the Indian Act could have been introduced to the House of Commons, affecting as they do the rights, opportunities and 55946-211

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privileges of the Indian population in our country. The minister will know, as I do, having on a number of occasions acted as counsel for the Indians-believing that one should assist them at all times, and doing it in a spirit of assistance and for no other consideration-that the Indians as a whole are suspicious of any legislation that will be introduced without their receiving at least an opportunity to examine, consider and recommend.

My suggestions to the minister are made with a view to removing many of the objections now being voiced in the Indian reserves across the country. These are objections in the nature of fear that full consideration of their hopes and aspirations will not be reflected in the legislation to be introduced. They have the fear that in too many cases the recommendations and suggestions will be the result of consideration by Indian agents and the officials rather than by the body of Indians as a whole.

After all, the Indian Act has been on the statute books for about seventy years, and it does require revamping, changing, and the removal of obsolete sections and sections which have no regard for present-day world conditions, sections which do not recognize what the Indian says is the right of all people today who during the years have been wards of the government. They say they have the right to a degree of self-determination which through the years they have been denied.

In that spirit I place these two suggestions before the minister, and I do so after having met with many of the Indian chieftains in western Canada, and also with the outstanding leaders of the Indians on the prairies. My first suggestion is that as soon as this resolution is passed by the House of Commons the bill should be "printed, and that it should be distributed not only to Indian agents and Indian officials but also to the Indian chieftains and head men in the various reserves across the country. If the minister goes no further than to distribute copies to the officials, then in my submission he will not be removing one strong ground for objection which has found its way into the minds of many of the young Indians who today are asking for full consideration of their rights, and an opportunity to achieve their ambition and aspirations.

When I say that, I mean that all they need is opportunity. I could point to one family that appeared as delegates at a meeting of the Saskatchewan Indians held at Saskatoon some weeks go. One of these Indians named Eli Wuttunee-and I give his name because I think it should be given-pointed out what happened in his own family when a brother of his decided that in order to give his sons and daughters an opportunity for education,

Indian Act

improvement and advancement he must voluntarily withdraw from the reservation. This shows what can be done if opportunity for education is given to our Indian population. In that family William Wuttunee is today a law student at McGill university; one of his sisters studied nursing until ill health prevented her continuing; another sister is in Prince Albert studying to become a psychiatric nurse.

All they ask is to be given the opportunity which too often is denied on the reservation. Therefore I ask the minister to send this bill out-broadcast it; print a few extra copies, and send them out to representative Indians, in addition to those copies sent through the regular channels of Indian Act administration.

My second suggestion is one I had made previously and which I reiterate. In the building and restoration of a new concept of dealing with the Indians, give them an opportunity to be builders. Give the leaders among the various tribes, the chieftains or whoever may be chosen in a democratic way among the tribes, an opportunity to come to Ottawa to meet with the minister and to discuss the bill. He may answer that the expense of bringing fifteen or twenty Indians to Ottawa would be heavy, and that the same result would be achieved if they were permitted to meet with Indian agents and officials. My answer is that the same results would not be achieved, because the presence of the Indian agent or official in its very essence has a coercive influence upon the Indians under his control and jurisdiction.

Since I first made the suggestion in the house I have seen a number of these Indian chiefs, and they have repeated their desire, their wish and their hope that the minister will give them an opportunity to deal directly with him, so that anything they may advance by way of amendments to the act and criticism of some of the officials will not have any detrimental effect so far as they are concerned. In other words, what they ask for is an opportunity to meet the minister, who represents to them what they so frequently refer to as the benevolence of the queen. They refer to Queen Victoria as though she were living today. Two of these Indian chiefs, both grandsons of the chieftains who signed the treaties in 1830 and sons of the chieftains who signed the treaty in 1873 that ceded the western plains to the British crown and to Canada, have asked that they be given the opportunity they used to have to come to the foot of the throne and discuss their complaints with the minister himself. After all, we have a responsibility to these humble people, and if he will do that he will receive from them a wealth of suggestions and that

wisdom, evidenced by them when they discuss their affairs, which will go far to remove many of the causes of complaint that today activate and arouse the younger members of the various reservations.

Mr. Coldwell:

I am sorry that the standing committee on agriculture is sitting this afternoon and that many hon. members who have taken an interest in this particular problem are otherwise engaged. I am thinking particularly of the hon. member for Selkirk (Mr. Bryce) who during the last parliament was most interested and active in endeavouring to improve the conditions of the Indians and to see written into our statute books an act which would assist us in helping the Indians to find their proper place in Canadian life. When we review the history of our country we realize how originally Indian lands have been taken away from them from time to time until today there are really insufficient means on some reservations to provide a decent living for many Indian tribes. Consequently we should realize that we owe a debt to them which we have so far failed to honour, a debt which should impel us to write a new Indian Act that will give the Indians an opportunity of becoming a part of our national life in every sense of the word.

The hon. member for Lake Centre made a reasonable plea for the circulation of the new Indian Act to the heads of the various tribes. He also made a plea that the minister should receive representations regarding the provisions of the act from leading Indians in the country. I have a great deal of sympathy with that suggestion, but at the same time I recollect that when the Indian affairs committee sat opportunities were provided for leading Indians to appear before it, and it was very difficult to get a consensus from those who took advantage of the opportunity. If this suggestion is put into effect I hope it will meet with better results than the committee was able to achieve when they invited representative Indians to appear before them during the last parliament.

I cannot see why Indian youth should not receive exactly the same opportunities for education and advancement as are available to our own children. As a matter of fact, when we look at the aborigines of New Zealand-and we call the original inhabitants of any country aborigines-and compare the Indian with the Maori we must feel that there is something wrong with the manner in which we have handled the Indian problem in Canada. As the hon. member for Lake Centre pointed out a few moments ago, given the opportunity Indian youth will achieve

the same standards of education as Anglo-Saxon children acquire. They have not had that opportunity. I have visited reserves at various times, and engaged as I was in education some years ago I visited some of the schools on the reservations. When I looked over the work of the children from six to ten years of age I found that it compared quite favourably with that of children of the same age and in the same grades in the ordinary rural schools of Canada. Beyond that age, no attempt was made to get the children to remain continuously in school when the berry picking season was on, or the fishing season on the Pacific coast, and bit by bit they seemed to slip behind and later returned to a primitive mode of life.

I am of the opinion that when the new act is introduced it Should be carefully scrutinized by the house from the point of view of the means we are going to provide for the better education of the Indian. I think that is the fundamental consideration we should have in mind. I do not believe that the educational system or systems that have been in effect on Indian reserves have been either suitable to modern needs or efficient. I should like to see Indian schools placed on the same level of educational requirement as the ordinary common schools in the provinces where Indian reserves exist. They should be placed under the same system of inspection with the same high qualifications for teachers engaged in educational work. I think that is fundamental. I know that there are those who emphasize the sectarian or non-sectarian aspect of the problem, but I do not wish to do that. I think a plan can be worked out which will be'satisfactory to those who have been and are truly interested in the welfare and education of the Indian population, and who desire to see some better form of educational facilities provided than has been the case in the past. I say that a fundamental requirement is the reorganization and improvement of educational facilities for Indian children.

Given opportunities comparable to those provided for Anglo-Saxon or white citizens, whichever term you care to use, you will find that Indian youth will acquire just as good an educational standing as their white brethren. I am most anxious that this aspect of the proposals to be introduced by the minister shall receive the most careful and sympathetic consideration of the house.

I want to compliment the Minister of National Health and Welfare upon the fact that much has been done in the last few years to improve the health facilities on the Indian reserves and among the Indian population in our Northwest Territories and 55946-211J

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other places. But a great deal remains to be done. Living on the outskirts of civilization as they do, with uncertain means of life at their disposal, makes it necessary that we take steps to improve their economic condition and to see that adequate supplies are available. After all, the basis of good health and good physical condition is an adequate and proper food supply.

Hospitals are being provided and examinations for tuberculosis have been undertaken. I hope that the scourge of tuberculosis among Indian tribes will soon be stamped out. I have not seen the more recent statistics, but I was shocked at the statistics published a few years ago with regard to tuberculosis among the Indians and the northern residents of Canada. I welcome this particular piece of legislation and I hope that when the bill is before us we shall find in it all that we hope for.

I want to say something that I might not be able to say on the estimates because with so many committees sitting one cannot always be here when the proper item comes up. In my own province of Saskatchewan, and I imagine this is true of other provinces, considerable difficulty is encountered in connection with roads through the Indian reserves. I know that the government of Saskatchewan does not expect the federal authorities to do anything about provincial highways that happen to pass through Indian reserves, but we must remember that many cross-country roads are municipal roads. While it is true to say that , the road allowance is part of the Indian property and has been turned over to the municipality or the province for the purposes of communication, it is equally true to say that the maintenance of these roads constitutes a considerable drain on some of the municipalities.

When the minister is considering his estimates-that is when this matter should really be considered-I ask him to consider the payment to the municipalities of something toward at least the maintenance of these roads. In some parts of Saskatchewan the Indian population use the roads for marketing purposes and I am glad to say that some of them have automobiles. Consequently communication across the reserve is as vital to the Indians as it is to the municipalities and the people of the province who live off the reserve.

I do not want to delay the passage of this resolution but I did want to let the minister know that anything he can do to improve the condition of the Indian population, to improve educational facilities, on the reserves particularly, to assist also their economic circumstances and, in co-operation with the

Supply-Veterans Affairs Minister of National Health and Welfare, to improve health facilities and general conditions in regard to health of the Indian population will receive the unqualified support, not only of myself and my colleagues but of the political movement which we represent in this house.

Mr. Applewhaite:

Mr. Chairman, it is hardly necessary to say that I welcome this resolution. There are many things in connection with the Indians I should like to discuss and there are many subjects on which the Indians would like to make representations to this government and to this parliament, and I suggest that the most efficient way to handle this matter would be to have the bill introduced and then we and the Indians could use it as a form of agenda or guide as to what should be done. If the Indians have an opportunity to consider this bill I am sure they will want to make representations, both on the omissions and on what is contained therein. I not only welcome the speedy introduction of the bill but I should like to see it widely distributed so that the Indians may know what it contains. If that were done both this house and the Indians would be saved the necessity of skipping around and discussing all facets of the Indian question instead of only those which in our opinion need consideration.

Resolution reported, read the second time and concurred in.

Mr. Harris (Grey-Bruce) thereupon moved for leave to introduce Bill No. 267, respecting Indians.

Motion agreed to and bill read the first time.

The house in committee of supply, Mr. Dion in the chair.

DEPARTMENT OP VETERANS AFFAIRS Soldier Settlement and Veterans Land Act-

547. To provide for the cost of administration of Veterans Land Act; soldier settlement and British family settlement, $4,563,514.

Mr. Hansell:

The minister will recall that I asked some questions last night with regard to the veteran who had not served overseas, who was not pensionable or who had not served for 365 days and was thus unable to come under the provisions of the statute in order to obtain a loan. I have to be satisfied with his answer and I am not going to be over-critical, but I should like to ask him two additional questions. The first is: has he any idea how many veterans have applied and have been refused by reason of the fact that they did not come under this particular

section of the act? My second question is perhaps predicated on the probable answer to the first one. If there are not very many veterans who have been refused, would it not be possible to bring in an amendment to the act so that the veterans might be able to receive the benefit of these loans?

Mr. Gregg:

Mr. Chairman, we have no

record, exact or otherwise, as to the number of applications that have been made. If we had the number, I do not think it would answer my friend's question, because a great deal of publicity was given to the fact that a veteran had to have one year's service in order to qualify. Consequently, quite a number who would have liked to apply did not apply because they knew that. From the records a general estimate could probably be obtained as to the number of service people who had served less than a year. Those are the ones who are not permitted to come under this provision. I believe the number might be larger than the hon. member expects, but I shall try to get it for him.

Mr. Fulton:

Mr. Chairman, the main concern of a general nature which I have in connection with the Veterans Land Act is still a concern over the limitation in the size of the small holding. It is still too large for many veterans to take advantage of the act. I refer specifically to the limitation which says that a small holding must be a minimum of three acres unless the value of the land is more than $500, in which case the small holding may be 2.1 acres, I believe, if recommended by the administration. I realize that the purpose of the small holding scheme was not to allow the veteran to have a country home. I know that is the reason for the limitation as to the size of the holding. It is designed *to assure that a veteran who is settling on a small holding will genuinely be engaged in at least part-time farming.

I know that the administration makes every effort, where a veteran genuinely desires to settle on a small holding, to interpret the regulations in such a way as to assist him. I know the mere fact that there is a statute, and regulations made under it, sometimes precludes the department from helping deserving cases. The fact is well known, Mr. Chairman, that land values, particularly in and around settled municipalities, are not going down but are continuing to rise. The result is that in many cases the cost of three acres, or even 2.1 acres, of land is much in excess of the maximum assistance available under the act, that is $6,000. This means that the veteran has to put up the money over and above this $6,000.

Take the type of small holding around a municipality where a veteran would be

expected perhaps to engage in part-time orchard operations or a berry farm, something of that nature: three acres is actually too much for a veteran who has another job, such as working on the railway. Three acres is too much for him to handle on a part-time basis. On the other hand, three acres is too little for a veteran to make a living from it on a full-time basis. It seems to me the limitation on the size of the holding is, in effect, defeating the initial purpose of the act when it was introduced, which was not to ensure that veterans got country homes but that they got places upon which they could carry on parttime farming. The size of the holding he must have now makes it impossible for him, in many cases, to do that. I am not going to make reference to a specific request which I forwarded to the minister involving some veterans working for the Canadian National near Kamloops, because that is being considered at the moment. I bring forward this general consideration, because I think it is important that the act be reviewed to see whether that limitation as to size cannot be eliminated.

While I am not one who generally approves of leaving things to the discretion of the minister, I think this is a case where, if the limitation is insisted upon, the only proper solution is to leave it entirely to the discretion of the minister. The act should merely provide that, in approving a scheme for settlement or an individual application for settlement, it must be borne in mind that approval will only be given if it is for bona fide small holding operations. By removing that figure of so many acres from the regulations, then genuine cases, which at the present time cannot be helped, could be helped.

Mr. Gregg:

Mr. Chairman, I am sure the hon. member has expressed very well an opinion which is held on all sides of this house. This subject has been fully discussed in my department. The hon. member makes some important points. I would, however, like to mention that the idea behind the small holding of two to three acres is finding expression this last year more fully than it did at the beginning. Early after demobilization there was an urgent need for a roof over the veteran's head. All hon. members will recall that before my time, 1946, there was a period when the subdivision came into being for that specific purpose, and to utilize half-acre patches of land. The subdivisions were built, and after a year that practice was. discontinued and we went back to the original intention.

This year the applications for small holdings are greater than they were immediately after demobilization. It appears as though

Supply-Veterans Affairs the interest is going to continue. I do not give that as an answer to the suggestion made by my hon. friend, but I do say that the intention behind that section of the act is being carried out. To put it plainly, that intention was to bonus the veteran to get out of the big cities, and to establish outside the large cities a new, pleasant way of life. After the war, when wages were high, that extra patch of land was looked upon as waste. I can tell my hon. friend that in the last year, when there have been sections of approaching unemployment down in my part of the country and in other parts of the country, the lad who had that patch of land was beginning to look upon it with a good deal more pleasure and satisfaction than he did before. If we do run into a recession in sections of Canada, I believe these men will be glad they have this land. That is that. I am going to add to that the statement that my colleague the Minister of Resources and Development under the bill which passed last year, in association with the provinces, is getting his plans under way. There comes up under that the question of what degree of veterans preference there will be in it. His officials and my officials, and he and I, have had a good deal of discussion on this matter. The director, supervisors and field men of V.L.A. have been carrying out winter courses for great numbers of veterans in the building of houses and acting as their own contractors. We have discussed whether we might not capitalize on that work as an auxiliary both to his scheme and to our own.

As is known we hold-it is in the estimates here and we have to pay taxes on it-patches of land, near centres of population across Canada, areas which have not been developed. It is just lying there as an asset of the crown. Some of these the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation could use and arrangements have been so made. Some of them have been taken into expanding cities but we have quite a number of others. I do not want to make this announcement yet, but I want to state that we are seeing if we cannot find out whether V.L.A. could assist, guide and direct the veteran in the construction-rolling his own, as the lads call it- buying a patch of that ground of an appropriate size but not getting the conditional grant at the end of ten years, and then under an arrangement with the National Housing Act administration getting his loan. If he can do that on these pieces of property that we own, it might lend itself to help to solve the problem which I know is in my hon. friend's mind as it is in mine. In a small town such as Campbellton, New Brunswick, which will never enter into an arrangement

Supply-Veterans Affairs with the province of New Brunswick and the Dominion of Canada under the Central Mortgage and Housing Corporation plan, an individual veteran or two or three veterans might be able to utilize the value under the Veterans Land Act and also the value under the National Housing Act. That might also be a means of assisting to solve the problem of what degree of veteran preference could come under the act of the Minister of Resources and Development.

Mr. Fulion:

I appreciate the fact that the minister, in what he has just told us, is revealing something which is under consideration and which is not final. I will therefore not press him to go further into details, except to ask whether that arrangement which he indicated1 or hinted at would not be subject to the limitation as to the size of the land to which the present small holding scheme is subject. Could a veteran take a piece of land of any size that he himself wished?

Mr. Gregg:

That is what we are attempting to work out.

Mr. Fulton:

I am glad to have that information. I hope that the arrangements which the minister has in mind will come to fruition because, if I may say so, it sounds to me like a good scheme and the answer to a great many problems.

I just want to say this in addition. I fully agree with the minister that the land under the small holdings scheme is valuable now and will be increasingly valuable as conditions develop; we hope they will never become serious but nevertheless they may become more serious than they are now. My suggestion was not that the small holdings scheme should not be directed toward encouraging veterans to settle on and to work a small plot of land. My thought was rather that of the types of land which so many of these schemes must use, types suitable mainly for fruit farming, the growing of small fruits, berries and so on, three acres is actually too much for a man to handle on a part-time basis.

If he were unemployed-and we hope he never will be-then admittedly it would not be too much. But as long as he is employed or if he is, on the other hand, in the other category that this scheme was designed to help, namely a veteran in receipt of a disability pension, again three acres is probably too much for him to handle. That is why I say: Do not do away with the idea of a

small holding for a genuine part-time farming operation. Merely give your directors and regional supervisors more discretion to recommend that in this case, because it is an

orchard operation, because it is a berry farm or because the price of the land is extremely high, we think that this veteran should be allowed to settle on perhaps one and a half acres or two acres or 1 [DOT] 9 acres. That was my only suggestion.

May I now ask some specific questions with regard to the expenditure. Can the minister tell us what was actually expended last year on travelling expenses, on purchase and replacements of motor vehicles and on legal fees?

Mr. Gregg:

Travelling expenses, $574,340; legal fees, $124,116. What was the third one?

Mr. Fulton:

Purchases and replacements of motor vehicles.

Mr. Gregg:

Mr. Fulion:

Why are the legal fees continuing at such a high level? I know that when a veteran purchases privately under his own arrangements with the administration he is obliged to pay the legal fees for perfecting his title. I can appreciate the fact that, when the scheme was first being worked out and the department was buying tracts of land to be open to development, there would probably be extensive legal fees in connection with the searching and the conveyancing. But by this time I would think that those fees would be rather tapering off and that from now on it would be more a matter of the individual deal. That being the case, I am not quite able to understand why these extremely high legal fees are continuing to be necessary.

Mr. Gregg:

There has to be payment to the lawyers for the searching of titles. We are fairly well at their mercy. While it is true that some of these properties were purchased some years ago, nevertheless, when the new veteran takes over, the title has to be searched in each individual case and registered.